Fuel filter condition monitoring

[AH64ID]

Couldn't agree more!

 

[07 ThunderRoad]

They won't because there is nothing that says it, at least in all the searching I have done. Nothing even requires you to keep the OEM filter canister on the truck, but you better meet the min OEM specs.



TSB 14-007-06[

That TSB is talking about filters installed in the factory can. It was not intended to address the issue of fuel system modification.

 

[07 ThunderRoad]

No. Cummins sells an engine with no warranty to Dodge with a configuration that includes the filtration per Dodge specs. There are better filters and filtration available but not with the cost parameters defined by Dodge and Cummins.

From the Cummins Quickserve web site, this is a list of the engines that the same filter housing was used on in 2007.



ISD4. 5 CM2150, B5. 9 LPG Plus CM556, G5. 9, ISB 5. 9 G CM2180, B4. 5s, ISF3. 8 CM2220 AN, ISB6. 7 CM2250, B4. 5 RGT, ISB CM800, QSB5. 9-44 CM550, B5. 9 G, G3. 9, ISBe4 CM850, ISD6. 7 CM2150, ISD6. 7 CM2150 SN, QSB6. 7 CM2250, QSB3. 9-30 CM550, QSB5. 9-30 CM550, B Gas Plus CM556, B6. 7s, ISB CM2150, ISD4. 5 CM2150 SN, ISB CM850, B LPG Plus CM556, B4. 5, B3. 9, ISF2. 8 CM2220 AN, ISB6. 7 CM2150 SN, QSB6. 7 CM850, ISBe4 CM2150, G5. 9 CM558, ISB6. 7 CM2150 SQ, ISB4. 5 CM2150 SN, ISB CM550, QSB5. 9 CM850, B Gas International CM556, QSB4. 5-30 CM550, ISBe CM800, ISBe5 CM2150 SN, QSB4. 5 CM850, B5. 9, ISBe CM850



I don't think Chrysler designed the filter if it is used on all the above listed Cummins engines.

 

[cerberusiam]

From the Cummins Quickserve web site, this is a list of the engines that the same filter housing was used on in 2007.

So what? The housing is not the detemrining factor, the filter is. Dodge did not design and make the filter, FleetGuard did. If Dodge would have specified 3 um filtration it would have been available in whatever housing was decided on.



All about cost and planned obsolescense. Your mixing ideas from what is selling and what can be provided. Two totally different concepts.

 

[AH64ID]

The TSB does not state you must use the canister, it states you must meet or exceed those specs. "Final fuel / water separator filters that meet the above specifications are approved for use on Cummins 5. 9L and 6. 7L diesel engines. "

Most of those engines listed are natural gas engines, not common rail ISB's.

Look here, the Ram ISB 6. 7 uses a different filter than the other ISB 6. 7s, and they all use 2.

http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT36159.pdf

 

[07 ThunderRoad]

The TSB does not state you must use the canister, it states you must meet or exceed those specs. "Final fuel / water separator filters that meet the above specifications are approved for use on Cummins 5. 9L and 6. 7L diesel engines. "



Most of those engines listed are natural gas engines, not common rail ISB's.



Look here, the Ram ISB 6. 7 uses a different filter than the other ISB 6. 7s, and they all use 2.



http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT36159.pdf

This is a coppy of TSB-14-002-10



NUMBER: 14-002-10

GROUP: Fuel

DATE: February 11, 2010



This bulletin is supplied as technical information only and is not an authorization for repair. No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system,

or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, or otherwise, without written permission of Chrysler Group LLC.



THIS BULLETIN SUPERSEDES TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 14-003-09 REV. A,

DATED OCTOBER 21, 2009, WHICH SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM YOUR FILES.

ALL REVISIONS ARE HIGHLIGHTED WITH **ASTERISKS** AND INCLUDE A NEW

PART.



SUBJECT:



Heavy Duty Filtration -MOPAR Retrofit or Add On Parts Available



MODELS:



2003 -2009 (D1/DH) Ram Truck (2500/3500 Pick Up)



2007 -2009 (DC) Ram Truck (3500 Cab Chassis)



NOTE: This bulletin applies to D1/DH/DR vehicles equipped with a 5. 9L Cummins

engine built from 2003 model year (sales codes ETH, ETC) and D1/DH/DC

vehicles equipped with a 6. 7L Cummins engine built from 2007 model year

(sales code ETJ).



DISCUSSION:



Several fuel system add-on or retrofit parts are available to enhance the filtering capability

for customers exposing their vehicles to extremely dirty conditions.



Description of parts available for Cummins diesel equipped vehicles are listed below:



• 6. 7L up-graded (5 & 10 micron filter-in-filter) fuel filter to retrofit earlier models (shell

and element).

• 6. 7L Element only, fuel filter.

· 5. 9L & 6. 7L Add-on or up-graded fuel tank vent hose kit with vent cap.

· ** Filter for fuel tank vent hose, (replaces vent cap) **.

• 5. 9L up-graded air filter. This filter is similar in design to the current 6. 7L air filter.

NOTE: Do not sell p/n 05183410AA. Use 68061633AA shell and filter.



NOTE: The maintenance intervals for the fuel filter has a 15,000 mile service

requirement or more often as needed.







14-002-10 -2





PARTS REQUIRED:



Qty. Part No. Description

**1

(AR)

68068997AA ** Air Filter Kit, Fuel Tank Vent **

(Must be used in conjunction with the appropriate Fuel Tank

Vent Kit listed below)

1

(AR)

68051906AA Kit, Severe Duty Fuel Tank Ventilation -DC 52 Gallon Tank

1

(AR)

68061341AA Kit, Severe Duty Fuel Tank Ventilation -D1/DH 35 Gallon Tank

1

(AR)

68061342AA Kit, Severe Duty Fuel Tank Ventilation -D1/DH 34 Gallon Tank

1

(AR)

68061633AA Element, Fuel Filter -Shell and Filter (5 Micron)

1

(AR)

68061634AA Element, Fuel Filter -This filter to supersede the original

5183410AA filter when supplies are exhausted.

1

(AR)

53034249AA Element, Air Filter -2003 -2009 -5. 9L



POLICY:



Information Only







The 6. 7 dual element filter in filter upgrade is the same micron spec as the 2 spin on filters listed in the link http://www.fleetguard.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/LT36159.pdf

The fuel water seperator is a 10 micron and the secondary filter is a 5 micron. As YOU have posted in the past, Fleetguard does not make a true 2 micron filter, only Cat does. Now that the 6. 7 issue has been cleared up, I thought this was a 5. 9 filtration thread. Now how is Dodge going to demand from Cummins a better filter if the one that is needed is not made by fleetguard. Well I will stay with the fleetguard FF5320 filter after reading this http://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/SB_TB4-02.pdf and the FS19823 water fuel seperator on the 2 factory kits I have under my truck.

I don't understand why so many people on the forum blame Dodge for a Cummins, and/or Bosch, problem - defect. If Cummins sold the 5. 9 with a 2 micron filter element, we would have 2 micron filters. Cummins is the one that will not offer it, so their is no 2 micron filter element. Dodge does not make filters, injectors, or diesel engines.

 

[AH64ID]

Based on current standards no-one makes a 2um filter. 3um is the best you can get and Donaldson is the only one I have found. Cat is 4um and Fleetguard is 5um. Bosch wants a 5um filter so they all meet Bosch specs and Fleetguard makes filters that meet the Bosch spec on 07. 5+ ISB's. I don't know what is offered on the older ISB's because I haven't researched it, I found alternatives and ran with it.

The above Filtration kit was discontinued, but I have one on my truck and like it. Still nothing that states you can't add filters/monitors post the OEM canister.

The Filter-in-Filter is a great setup, but I still don't believe it has the amount of media that 2 filters do. The ISB's actually have better filters than the larger motors (not sure how the RAM filter plays in as I can't get a secondary rating on it), but this is due to smaller injectors and openings and needing finer filtration.

Cummins builds and spec's the motors to what Ram/Chrysler/Dodge wants. It's why the motor first came out with a 10um filter. Cummins can make recommendations to Chrysler, but that's it.

 

[sag2]

All good discussions above, but want to keep this thread on the topic I started off with to get (hopefully) the answers I need.



Summary: I've got two filters in line from the tank. Is there a way to monitor them somehow to know which one to change (and when to change) other than using mileage and/or age?



Steve

This thread makes my head hurt from all the bad information. The short answer to your question is you need three pressure gauges to know what filter is plugged. You need one between the lift pump and the first filter. This is the potential pressure for the fuel system. The second one needs to be between the two filters, that gauge gives you the condition of the first filter. The third gauge is between the second filter and the CP3. That gives you the condition of the second filter. You are measuring pressure drop across each filter, so you need two gauges to measure the condition of each filter. When the pressure drop from a new filter exceeds a certain amount, that filter is becoming plugged and can no longer pass the rated volume. Some filter manufacturers may provide a pressure drop spec, but Dodge does not. You will have to use some common sense here. Remember even a new filter will have some drop, so you always have to measure against a new filter. TC is correct about one thing, a CP3 can pull significant vacuum. The way debris gets past a filter is from the lift pump pushing on one side of the media, and the CP3 pulling a vacuum on the other when the media is plugged or almost plugged. The filter can come out hour glass shaped from the pressure differential.

Now let me get into the fray on some of the other points. Look at your warranty book in the glove box. It includes a statement that says modifications MAY void your warranty. In order to void it, the modification must have caused the failure to occur. Some mods are clear cut, some are gray. You have to judge if you can defend your mod against any failure. The manufacturer has the burden to prove it did, but once they deny coverage you have to take the next step to prove them wrong. Just be careful what you wish for.

As for a CP3 pulling a vacuum and the need for a vacuum gauge to protect yourself, Dodge is currently working on another heavy duty filter kit that may include a pressure differential type sensor. If they can justify the expense you may see it included in the new kits. To TC's comment that you can have a vacuum in the inlet to the CP3, that is impossible unless the supply (lift pump, plugged filter, line size etc. ) of fuel is less than the demand. So if you have a pressure gauge between the filter and the CP3 and it never goes below 1 psi, you will never have a vacuum. It is simple physics 101; you can't have two different pressures in the same container (fuel line between filter and CP3 inlet) at the same time. A vacuum gauge is also adequate in place of a pressure gauge, but it tells you the same thing. Less than 1 PSI (or 0 psi) on the gauge equals a vacuum, but you can't see it because the pressure gauge does not read below 0. So to be safe, as long as you have a positive pressure at the CP3 inlet, your pump is safe. But higher pressure like 2-5 psi is better than 0-1. Again, some common sense is required.

Also keep in mind that the MINIMUM change interval to keep your fuel system warranty in place is replacement every 15,000 miles. And save your receipts.

 

[TCDiesel]

All CP3s produce Different rates of vacuum Its Much less at Idle then at 2500 RPMS. Some need to recognize the depth I have taken to Measure Volume rates that CP3s Can Produce. NO one I know has remove the shock peen balls in 3 different location to install sensors to measure the volumes and pressures, and added to pressure Ports for metering,This hole thread The OP ask some questions I answer correctly. Now when You have the same Pressure 12PSI and 0 Vacuum at Idle whats Going to Happen when the Vacuum reaches 25hg at 2200 RPMs? CP3s are NOT vacuum cleaners were You just flip a switch and the the Vacuum is xx now stick a filter on the end of the hose and see what happens to the Vacuum? Now take that same filter place it into a sealed container ( use wet Vac) and pressurize with water watch your pressure gage now turn the Vacuum on/off watch watch what happens to the pressure? Now wrap a sock around the filter and see what happens to the Pressure? before and after the container.



Check with owners that have My pumps. . They will tell you they are the most bads *** pumps they have ever owned,Just this pass week 1 Owner did 925Hp (5. 9 Dodge Cummins) on a single 32k Valve Modded Rail and 65LPM Injectors and some other goodies form us , He just place the order for 75LPM injectors BC he has more pump then engine... I didn't get this knowledge and ability form the Internet. Sag2 is correct use some common sense (which seems to be getting less & less on the Internet) and you will be OK.

 

[AH64ID]

You may have done a lot of testing, but you have no understanding of physics 101. You seem to build a great pump, but I am always lost at your lack of understanding at anything outside the pump. The only common sense that is lacking on these posts is where you are trying to tell us a CP3 fuel system doesn't have to obey the laws of physics.

 

[Prairie Dog]

#ad


Sorry, we now return you to your regularly scheduled squabble.

 

[cerberusiam]

#ad




Sorry, we now return you to your regularly scheduled squabble.

#ad

 

[rbattelle]

I agree with everything sag says, but I bet you could get away with 2 pressure sensors instead of 3. One between the filters, and one between the last filter and the CP-3.

Based on current standards no-one makes a 2um filter.

Stanadyne does, although it depends on what standards you apply. 2um at 100% efficiency, no. 99% is the best they offer (at 45 gph).



-Ryan

 

[AH64ID]

Stanadyne does, although it depends on what standards you apply. 2um at 100% efficiency, no. 99% is the best they offer (at 45 gph).



-Ryan

From what I have researched the current NIST calibration standards and SAE J1985 do not allow for a rating lower than 3um at 98. 7%. This is why the Donaldson P551313 went from a 2um to 3um, and the Cat went from a 2um to a 4um absolute filter.



If a filer is reporting SAE J1985 at 2um absolute it's on the old calibration numbers and it could be 3, 4, or higher??

 

[cerberusiam]

NO one I know has remove the shock peen balls in 3 different location to install sensors to measure the volumes and pressures, and added to pressure Ports for metering.

Oh good, then maybe you can supply some usable information. Given a stock CP-3 in good shape, stock fuel lines and filter, stock LP that meets flow spec:



a) at what case pressure and LP pressure at the CP-3 does the COV loose CP-3 return flow



b) at what case pressure and LP pressure at the CP-3 does the COV loose secondary cooling and lube flow



c) at 85% engine load, WOT, stock fueling curve what CP-3 inlet pressure is needed to maintain at the least full secondary lube and cooling flow

 

[Prairie Dog]

Oh, I used to know this...

 

[sag2]

I agree with everything sag says, but I bet you could get away with 2 pressure sensors instead of 3. One between the filters, and one between the last filter and the CP-3.







Stanadyne does, although it depends on what standards you apply. 2um at 100% efficiency, no. 99% is the best they offer (at 45 gph).



-Ryan

Ryan, that would work as long as you measured the pressure between the filters when the filter was new so you know your starting point. Then you could calculate the pressure drop across the filter as it plugs up. That is assuming you just don't want to change the filter at a minimum X psi, then two sensors would work just fine. The nice thing with three is you always know your available pressure.

 

[Jim W]

I would research what a differential pressure gage is and how they work. A differential pressure gage would eliminate the need for three gages and provides just one gage. These are used in the fluid power industry all the time and are extremely will built.

Here is a link that provides information on the differential pressure gage and filter monitoring equipment.

Precision Differential Pressure Gauges - Filter Condition Indicators



Jim W.

 

[TCDiesel]

Oh good, then maybe you can supply some usable information. Given a stock CP-3 in good shape, stock fuel lines and filter, stock LP that meets flow spec:



a) at what case pressure and LP pressure at the CP-3 does the COV loose CP-3 return flow



b) at what case pressure and LP pressure at the CP-3 does the COV loose secondary cooling and lube flow



c) at 85% engine load, WOT, stock fueling curve what CP-3 inlet pressure is needed to maintain at the least full secondary lube and cooling flow

Cerb... ..... Please provide this Info. . if it is correct I will pay you to come to MN to verify... But Bring $5000. 00 in cash if You are Wrong. I will reimburse you for your expense otherwise its on you... another fishing expedition for you. . YOU are the biggest thief on the net. . You type well But I am calling you out..... YOU ARE ALWAYS BUILDING ON SOMEONE'S LABOR AND COST. . PLEASE BUILD OR CREATE SOME MEANINGFUL PRODUCTS FOR THE PUBLIC TO GAIN THE INCREDIBLE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE YOU CLAIM TO HAVE. CERBee you have your cheer-leading section. but put the leather into pay dirt is impossible for you unless it requires PAST and Copy.

 

[cerberusiam]

Todd, all you needed to say was you felt it was proprietary. After all, you made the brag you had done all this testing no one else had done. I didn't ask you to divulge trade secrets on how to fix the flow issues. All I wanted was validation of a STOCK system for reference.



As much as I respect your abilities and work, you are a jack-wagon on these forums. You dangle all this great and wonderful stuff then waffle when asked simple questions. I would have paid you for validation of pressures and flow but now... ...





Todd, FYI, you EVER call me a thief again and you won't have to pay me to come to Minnesota. That trip will be all on my own dime.