Governor spring... pandora's box?

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

I didn't replace any gaskets or seals or anything... but that doesn't mean you don't need too, that just means I half a**ed this one like I always do. Possibly, theres either a gasket or gasket maker when you pull the pump top... I didn't stand out in the cold long enough to pay attention to that. Someone with a little intelligence answer this one.



It's not a terrible job... just be prepare for a lot of screwing around. Everything down there is small and in tight spots. If you're going to tip the pump to the side like Pastor Bob's instructions say, you're going to need one of those "around the corner" wrenches, as I call them. An S-shaped wrench... whatever the technical term may be. I Just found the right wrench size, heated it up, and bent it on my own. That way I could get the perfect angle to get in there.



I got all done loosening the pump to tip it and it didn't tip... not sure why. But I was able to do it without tipping the pump, which is nice, cuz then you don't have to worry about screwing up timing. But the way I did it, I had to bend an allen wrench to fit the back screw closest to the motor. You have to take the diaphram cover off, and the fuel pin out, like you may have once already to tweak your pump. If you haven't tweaked your pump, and want to eventually... here's your perfect time to do so.



You will have to remove the idle screw and max throttle screw also. The fuel screw on the back of the pump, you dont have to remove, but it makes it a lot easier to get back together if you do.



DONT let the "tophat" that the spring is connected to go. When you pull the governor spring, that thing will wanna fly. An extra set of hands will be helpful.



Altogether, it probably should've taken me no more than 2 hours. With all the screwing around I did making wrenches and screwing around with standard wrenches where I shouldve just bent one in the first place... it took twice as long.



Its worth it though. Just don't do it on a day you need the truck, just in case.

 

[JGrefenstette]

great to know. how much did the spring cost you? im going to do a little more homework on this one.

 

[JGrefenstette]

also, do you think 60lb valve springs are necisary. haveing the 366 in and the stock valve springs, do you think its a must have to do the 60lb?

 

[PToombs]

Buy a seal kit! Then you can change the throttle shaft o-ring and cover seal and they won't leak. If you don't, they will leak after being disturbed. (most of the time) You'll also have extra stuff if you need it.

Don't put gasket maker on the cover! If it goes in it can plug the little holes internally.



When you pull the top, unscrew the full fuel screw, counting the turns. Makes it easier to assemble.

Push throttle shaft, thru the cover during removal. Then remove the spring and stuff. It's easier than hunting for the tophat, spring, etc, after you lose them.

Watch the shaft to throttle indexing marks. Put it back the same way.

You shouldn't have to move the pump. Ball driver hex wrenches help alot.



Anything else? :-laf



PS, if you don't wind over 3k rpm, should be ok with stock springs. Next week when you decide you wanna wind it up, replace all the springs with 60# ers.

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

I got my spring for about $16 or so from PDR. There's an exchange rate though, that may run you more than the spring cost, because it came out of Canada. I bought the spring on an order with my turbo, fuel pin, and gauges, so it was worth the exchange. For just the spring, a lot of places have them, and they're relatively cheap. Try a Cummins shop, I'm sure they could order one.

 

[PToombs]

Most pump shops that are Bosch dealers should have them. I paid $16 here local.

 

[JGrefenstette]

good deal. im going to look into getting one. ill be at diesel school in NC come august so i might just wait till then and do the gov. spring and the 60# valve springs in class someday. well see. that project is behind a few others in the line of priorities as of now.

 

[csnider]

I just put the 366 spring in one of my trucks yesterday. . It's a great upgrade.

pretty easy to do Like PToombs wrote. You can use a 5mm balldriver hex wrench to get to the two allens on the right without tilting your injection pump away from the engine. I just removed the full fuel screw and left the high speed and idle set- screws were they are. pushing the throttle shaft out of the top housing as you lift it. . keeps everything inside intact. it's real easy to just disconect the throttle lever then hold the top-hat thing together while you take out the 388 (stock spring) which also keeps the top-hat assembly together . insert the 366 were the 388 was, hook the throttle lever to the other side of the 366 and put the top back on, guiding the throttle shaft into the bushing as you lower the top in place. BINGO. I ordered another 366 for my other truck. . Cool!!!

 

[JGrefenstette]

sounds like you had a pretty easy time with it snider. how long would you say it took you?



one other question ive been wondering about: once you put the spring in, does it raise the idle rpm? if i havent fooled with my pump before, can i simple put the spring in and thats it, or do i need to turn up the fuel, adjust the diaphram, lowe idle, etc???

 

[PToombs]

You may have to adjust the low idle down. While you have the cover off, remove the low screw and turn it around for easy access. (slot to the front!)



There is a guy on another site that absolutely swears that it's better to pull the tophat from the lever, as opposed to shoving the shaft thru. I've done it leaving the shaft in, it's a great way to lose the tophat and associated parts!

 

[csnider]

sounds like you had a pretty easy time with it snider. how long would you say it took you?



one other question ive been wondering about: once you put the spring in, does it raise the idle rpm? if i havent fooled with my pump before, can i simple put the spring in and thats it, or do i need to turn up the fuel, adjust the diaphram, lowe idle, etc???

Hmmm well you should not have to adjust anything BUT, you are removing the full fuel adjustment screw so unless you can get it exactly were it was you might have a change in Idle RPMs... you can adjust your full fuel screw after initial startup/warmup to find your prefferd RPMs which would get you right back to your current (pre spring mod) fueling. . the spring doesn't change the fueling amount in the lower rpms. at least it didn't in my case..... It just lets the pump fuel in the higher rpms for better drivability.....

I think I spent an hour and 1/2 doing it but I took my time and got things cleaned up first and kept things clean during the process. . VE pumps don't react well to ANY dirt or other particles floating around their innards!!!

If you want to count the hours reading about how to do it before I finally got a spring and did it,then add 2 more hours!!!. . The post about the spring in the FAQ section will explain things pretty good but everyone has their own methods... . Good luck

 

[JGrefenstette]

cant thank you enough, you too pete. i think i no what my next little job is as soon as i get these stacks on

thanks again yall, always able to help

 

[JGrefenstette]

well ive been doing some homework. reading most of Bushwakers threads, and many other online resources. the inner workings of these pumps is amazing. quite and education. so i was hoping to find a Technical Service Manual for the VE from Bosch or somebody. all i found was some manuals from bosch, the closest thing was a "Delivery Style Pump" book, which is for the rotory desigen i believe, but the picture on the front was of a VP44 im almost certain. and the other was electrical diesel systems, which said if covered the basic diesel systems, inline, rotory, delivery, common rail.



im not sure if i understand the difference between rotory and delivery? but im still learning this stuff.



but about the books... . im pretty steemed at bosch. the first book is $17 and the second is $14. they want $9. 98 for "handling"!!!!!! and another $6. 80 for shipping!!!!!!! how bogus is that!?!??!? so i decided to shove that idea untill i find a better alternative.



any suggestions?

 

[puff1]

need more power!

I just read everything in this thread and its giving me a headache. This 366 spring sounds great. I noticed that there is a small leak on my pump and I should maybe tackle it. I am installing my gauges in the next week or two, I want to do that first so I can figure out what RPM im running at.

When I bought my truck it had already been modified. It had a 12cm housing, the guy said it has injectors and a upgraded torque. I lost his number so I can't ask him what he did to my pump. I noticed that on the highway when you stomp on it, it seems to hit a dead spot after 100 km somewhere. From all your info this spring would cure it right?

It really sucks that I have no idea whats been done to my pump! Would someone install a pdr pin or somthing without putting a better spring in. All I know is my truck can black out a city block when I stomp on it. What do you guys think has been done to my pump? If you take the stock pump and crank the fuel screw how much smoke would it make. I trying to figure out what i've got here. Oh ya has anyone put a p7100 on a first gen? Whats the max horse power we can get out of our pumps with a pin and spring? Sorry for all the questions

 

[JGrefenstette]

ill try at a few here, untill the smart guys tell you what you want to know. depending on the kinda guy you bought the truck from, your pumps mostlikly be simply turned up. the guy i bought mine from had the pump slightly adjusted. i think it was probly some lame guy at a dodge dealer doing a tune up and just gave the srew a twist for more power. i can tell because it will smoke more than a totaly stock setup. as far as the p7100... . i asked a very knowledgable cummins mechanic i know about doing the conversion, he said its very doable, but difficult and unless you can do it yourself hhighly expensive. very time consuming, becuase you have to modify a LOT. oh and if you just crank the fuel screw and dont adjust the diaphram, you could probly black out the sun

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

Where to start.



Easiest (word wise) first: The P7100 has been done on the first gens, many times. If you hear anyone say "P-pump" or they have a "P-pumped" motor, thats the P7100 inline pump. The biggest problem with putting one on a first gen is that it has a 4 bolt square pattern as opposed to our VE which has a 3 bolt triangular pattern to hold it to the front gear case. Yes, kiddies, this means you need to find and install a second gen gear case. The other issues mainly have to do with the length... throttle position and stuff.



Fixing a leak on your pump... depending upon how bad it is, may give you back some horse.



Turning up the bosch ve involves a bunch of different adjustments. The main is the fuel screw in the back of the pump. This screw, as Jimmy stated, is what gives you the ability to black out the sun. Fastest way to tell if thats tweaked? Theres a lock collar on it from the factory that doesnt allow you to turn it in past the factory setting. If its not there, its been turned up.



The fuel pin is inside the top of the pump, and is suspended there by the diaphram. The adjustment on this guy is to turn the "shallow" side toward the tiny pin down in the pump. Whats that mean? The pin on the diaphram has a cone on the end of it, with the narrow part of the cone toward the top. When you hit the accelerator, vacuum in your pump sucks that diaphram down into the hole, causing the tiny pin that rides on the cone to edge its way further out of its hole, thus providing more fuel. That cone is also eccentric, or off center. What you want is to have it in there so that tiny pin inside has the most travel out of its hole. If I get real ambitious I'll draw a picture at some point. The custom cut pin takes that a step further. Those pins are ground down on the "shallow" side to be even "shallower" and give that tiny pin down in there even more room to come out of its hole.



The next is the smoke screw on the top of the pump. Its a set screw that pushes down on the diaphram, holding it from coming further up toward "home" position. Like I said, the further down that diaphram is, the more that tiny pin comes out, the more fuel you get. That smoke screw is under the little cap on top of the pump that you need a flat head screwdriver to pry off.



There is a nylon washer on the pin with the diaphram that keeps it from going too far into the hole. Some people file that washer thinner to let the pin go further in. The PDR pin has an o-ring that replaces the washer. I'm not sure about other companies, someone help me here? The last thing is the starwheel that is around the pin with the diaphram. Its threaded onto the shaft that the pin is inside of. Same priciple, screw the star wheel further down, the diaphram moves further down... you know the rest by now.



An untweaked pump, I've heard, does around 2500 rpms. My fully tweaked pump, before the 366 spring, did around 2800 downhill with the wind behind me. Now... jeez... I don't know considering with the fully tweaked pump, PDR pin, and 366 spring, my 0-1500 degree pre-turbo pyrometer, pegs out before I reach 3200 rpm.



The spring is considerably deeper into the pump than all the other adjustments I mentioned here. Its not a terrible job if you keep your head on straight. 2 hours to be careful. Just realize when one method doesnt work, its time to give up on that way and try something new. Like PT said, everyone has their own way. Your best off learning how the pump works a little, finding the screws you need to take out, and just using common sense to get in there. Dont listen to a single one of us, because the guy with sausage fingers will tell you one way is easier, where the guy with arthritis will tell you something else, and the guy who cant turn a wrench will have his way, and the guy with no upper body strength will do something else entirely. Like I said, look at your pump, visualize what you need to do, and go at it whatever way you think will work the best. You're both pretty smart guys, and can turn a wrench, as far as I can tell from your posts, I think you'll be alright.



As far as the decision to do it at all? I definitely think its worth it. I think what it will do for you depends strongly upon what youve done to your truck already. Thats what I'm taking from most comments about it, along with my own experience. Its a $16 part, how can you go wrong? Put it in. Take it for a drive. Come back here and tell us how it went.

 

[JGrefenstette]

alright matt, tonight i am going to order from PDR the ASA intake, 366, and now from what youve said, should i order the pin and washer for the diaphram? tell me teacher :-laf, while im making an order from them, is there any other pump parts i should get to save shipping costs when i later get more power hungery??



i feel that im going to be following in your foot steps with the whole pump fooling. except in reverse order gauges, 366, significant fuel adjustment, etc. :-laf

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

The PDR pin comes with the o-ring, you dont have to order it seperate.



The gauges came before the 366 and PDR pin for me... thank the Lord, I may have had a mess on my hands had I not monitored everything between the two.



As far as it goes, I got the PDR pin and realized I could've cut it myself. I have access to all sorts of fun machines I could've done that on though. If you don't, I wouldnt recommend trying it on your own, so yeah, throw it on the order.



Just remember, if you start getting too much fuel, you need to supply more air too. My turbo is roughly the equivalent of an HX40 without the waste gate, and look how high my egts are. I'm not saying dont do it. Have fun with your truck, thats what its for. But just watch your gauges. Eventually your gonna get power hungry again, like all of us do, and want injectors or something. Just a thought to put a little aside for a bigger turbo, or maybe at least a smaller exhaust housing for your current turbo. Let me know how everything goes. Good luck.

 

[PToombs]

Jimmy, grind the stock pin. Save yourself a ton of money. There's lots of posts on here on how to.

The plastic washer? Look at the fuel pin, (cone) see where the pin inside rides on the cone? If the mark is near the deepest part of the taper, leave it. If it lacks a little, grind the washer down. I put some sand paper on a flat surface and ground mine on my finger.

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

PT, did you just use a die grinder on it or what? I was thinking about using a wire EDM, but not many people can get to one of those. As I recall, the pin is hardened, so milling is pretty well out of the question. A grinding wheel with a table wouldnt fit in there, and there would really be no way to fixture the thing. I guess I'm maybe thinking a little too precise, I guess a die grinder or pedistal grinder would be fine if your not too worried about tolerances and what not. I'm not sure, how close do you have to be on it?



All I know, Jimmy, is PT is right, if you're confident in doing it... you'll be $75 ahead of me, cuz PDR just ships you basically the same pin with the shallower side ground down.