i have the scoop on the lift pump problem

[FDziurda]

Got my upgraded 3/8" lines from Vaughn McKenzie. Check archives for info. Look & work great!

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Frank Dziurda - K7SFN
Carson City, Nevada
'99. 5 2500 4X4 6-Speed Quad Cab LWB 3. 54 LSD

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Man I love this thread, lots of good discussion, thoughts and ideas.

Articat has it nailed on the head, what is important most of all is flow, not as important as pressure. If you've got a great fuel supply then 10psi ought to be plenty adequate, as long as it's 10psi under all conditions, all the time.

A while back I removed my stock lift pump and mounted it by the fuel tank pickup. I cut the stock plug off the wiring harness about 3-4" back of the plug so that if I want to put it back, I can resolder the wires and no D/C tech will ever "find out. " I then soldered 2 wires onto the stock wire and ran them back to the tank, terminating them at the pump. For now I used a strap and mounted the pump to the bed support pad. I used silicone gel on the plug to keep water out, and even though it was back there all winter getting hammered with crap and water, it hasn't missed a beat. I plan to get an aftermarket later on which I will mount "permanently. " The relocation seems to have added a bit of power, and helped fuel pressure by at least . 5-1 psi at the injection pump. In my opinion, unless you're a big BOMBer, the stock fuel line from the tank to engine bay are adequate if you are PUSHING fuel through it... woefully inadequate used as a straw #ad
. I don't see the need to go 1/2" fuel lines from the tank if you have a good pump back there.

Brandon, regarding picking a pump to standardize on for fuel line kits, to mount at the tank. . . I think most aftermarket pumps use 3/8" NPT ports. So guys could choose between the Carter, Mallory or Holley and be able to use the same "kit. " Whatever pump becomes the "favorite," someone could do up a kit with mounting hardware, hose, wiring, etc. so DYI guys can easily relocate an aftermarket pump to the tank area. Like you need more work, right Brandon? #ad
I got burned out on the fuel line kit stuff so turned it all over to him, but I still plan to contribute to the R&D department though.

Vaughn


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'01 2500 QC Shortbed 2wd, 6-speed, 3. 54LSD, Cab & Fog lamps, Camper & Tow Pkg.
BOMBed: RV injectors, PS Boost module, Amsoil air filter, straightpiped exh. , Aeroquip 3/8" fuel line w/tank mounted lift pump, AutoMeter Sport Comp gauges, Line-X'd, Amber turn signal conversion.
Mildly BOMBed Performance: 0-60 @ 10. 0 sec. ,
40-60 @ 5. 5 sec. ,
0-100 @ 24 sec.

[This message has been edited by Vaughn MacKenzie (edited 03-14-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

Well guys-I think we've got it figured out or are very, very close and only time proven in the field will determine which of the setups works the best for -monetary reasons(initial cost plus longevity) or high HP--as stated by most here in some form or another this is what I see as being viable options(these are in order of least cost outlay to the most)

1) relocate your pump close to the tank
2) #1 & add relay for wiring
3) Add 7psi Carter pump @ tank to assist the stock pump at its location
4) #1 & #2 plus upgraded lines(wherever you want)
5) Add aftermarket pump at tank w/ relay wiring(remove the stock pump)
5a) #2, #3 & #4
6) #5 & upgrade the lines(wherever you want)
7) BG220hr pump setup which I will outline later

You can spend as low as $10-$20 on #1 and up to $750 or so for #7(if you plumb it like my outline) Now Chad Sheets & Blackdemon have installed the BG, but I don't think they installed it per my outline, so if it lasts with their installation method this would be a choice that is equal too if not better than the Mallory with a little extra plumbing involved.

We are dealing with electric pumps here which will fail at some point as they all do. What's the best set up? Only you know what you want or where you'll head in the HP dept.
How long will it last? Well we're trying to set these things up so they will at least outlive the original setup, which is a bad set up for any electric pump. Nobody can tell you how long they will last-only extended usage will determine the ultimate setup for cost, performance and longevity.

I think in all honesty if you want one pump that will do it all for a reasonable outlay of cash the Mallory may be the one, as we've seen it last with HVAC & Big Carl 64. Summit's own pump or the 15psi Carter may be very close, but they are unproven. The Holley is probably not a bad choice either(I might move it to the rear first and see if this helps before I do anything else, eventhough I've got the BG pump and 1/2 of Jegs supply house coming & Ted J. 's upgrade kit w/ fittings-I may send most of it back-I don't know). The bottom line is get the pump as close to the tank and as low as possible with whatever pump you decide.

The BG220HR set up(please comment if someone sees something that may seem wacky)
pump will be back by the fuel tank with a -10AN or -8AN line from the tank via TED J. 's upgrade fuel tank head or just connect to the stock head-you'll have to drop the tank(remove driveshaft to give you more room)
you must drill out TJ's tank head for another return line fitting(-10AN or -8AN or possibly put a wye at the tank return w/ a check valve in the stock return line-this wye thing may not work if the pressure is greater from the BG bypass than the pressure from the VP44 return---any thoughts)
The bypass at the BG220HR would be the same as the HG220PS(this costs $70 extra) & you wouldn't use the bypass that comes w/ the BG220HR(you shouldn't use the BG220PS as it's not rated for continous use)
-10AN or -8AN to the filter-you should drill out the filter head to accept these either of these lines

Right now I wouldn't change my upgraded -6AN lines from the filter to the VP44-maybe later or never

wire in the relay for the pump & your done

If I can get around TJ's upgrade kit it would save some $$$$, but I'm not sure this is smart or not--A guinea pig I will be if I do this, but how much of one or one at all is what I'm debating now

good luck--comments please---chris

 

[ARARAR]

Does anyone remember reading a thread about drilling out the banjo fittings and or bolts to 3/8" if your were going to all a fueling module like a TST or VA?

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98. 5 2500 QC,SB W/ camper shell, whitw w/driftwood lower, 2wd,3. 54, loaded w/o leather,chrome Westin step bars, BD tc/vb and pressureloc,w/trans temp,4" BD exhaust from turbo back, firestone airbags, heavy duty pullrite hitch, Bug sheilds, 4x4 type mud flaps front and back, Amsoil bypass & air filter. Dual pyro-boost gauge,pillar mount, PS boost mod and elbow,
VA cpc and fuel pressure gauge, Pac-Brake.

 

[Turbo Terry]

You guys are on the ball. Back to the top.

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99-24V-2500-Laramie-SLT-A/T-LSD-355
All Options except cab lights and carpet-Rino- Prime-Loc-Alcoa wheels-Lund cold front-Factory Tows-DSG Electronic Fast Idle-Mag-Hytec transmission Pan+Rear Diff. Cover -Tekonsha Voyager- VA CPC -Rancho 9000-5000 steering stabalizer - BD exhaust brake - Auto-loc - Astroflex autostart -Bill K. T/C and V/B in tranmission -Prime-Loc removed and hanging in garage-Alaska

 

[Mopar-muscle]

arar , i will try to post pics tomorow of a modified bajo bolt next to a stock one , i spent close to 2 hours working these things over , doing it all by hand and in sort of a rush as i had to get home . >> EDIT , it would be next to impossible to modify the banjo fitting , its about as big as it can get at almost 5//16ths id.

for those that missed my other post about this , the stock bolt has 4 . 128 holes with a chamfer in the shoulder of the bolt , staggered in a cross pattern , if you put a drill bit thru each pair of holes they would pass each other , the hole down the center of the bolt is 9/32nds ( just over . 250) .

i opened the shoulder holes to . 199 and rechamfered the holes , i opened the center holes to 21/64ths , ( just under 11/32nds). you can't go to 3/8ths on the center , i began to drill to 11/32nds but it looked like it was going to break into the threads as the hole was slightly offset .

i'm planning to install these modified bolts tomorrow and take a pressure reading ,with and without most HP enhancers i have . hopefully at minimum some of the mods i do will be embraced by the KISS crowd as the lift pump failures strike both camps .

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-15-2001). ]

 

[Arcticat]

Ituffram, I was just thinking the exact same thing. In my mind the volume is much more important. Pressure changes with line size and line restriction. For example, I'm using -8AN line and fittings instead of -6AN and I'll bet that all other factors being equal (alike trucks, mods and pumps), my pressure will be lower than someone who used -6AN. Another example is what happened with ynott's truck, where he has done nothing to the lines and gets 23psi wheras csutton gets 7psi with the same Holley pump but far less retriction in the plumbing. I would be happier with a setup that has 9-10psi at idle and 9-10 psi at WOT than a setup that had 14-15 psi at idle and 9-10psi at WOT. To my reasoning, that a setup would stay at even pressure or has a very small drop in pressure from idle to WOT would indicate that particular pump is keeping up with the demands of the engine better.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

carter seels to high performance pumps , both flow the same volume , have the same fitting size , but a different pressure setting , one is 15psi , the other is 7 psi .

i am tempted to move my stock pump back to the fuel pickup area , but i don't want to hack the factory harness , also to get it within the 3 feet (as recommended by carter ) of the fuel source , which to me is the end of the pickup, i'll have to mount it ouside the frame up on a bed mount , not sure if i want it out there with all the crap the tires kick up , though a deflector shield would be an easy add on . i was bombing banjo bolts this am , along with modifying some AN fitting to at least be 5/16's ID , this is best done in a lathe as my drill press is not perfect here at work and i missed drilled the hole at an angle and broken thru the 12mm threads . oh well its all in the name of science .

i will snap some pics of my moded banjo bolts , the small set of holes in the body of the bolt measure out at . 128 each , i'm going to open those up to . 199 , possibly put them in the bridgeport and make the hole a slot in 4 places .

i just measured the fuel pickup , its 3/8ths OD , the ID of a -6AN is 5/16ths . the lines going thru the stock system go down to 5/16ths ,and the banjo bolts squeeze it down to 9/32ths . i wouldn't be surprised to see the freeflow of the factory pump to be 7psi , all these restrictions are adding to the pressure we see ??? whats the point of having a 3/8th's pickup if you squeeze it down to 5/16th line ID and 9/32nd ID on the banjo bolts , what were the clowns at DC thinking ???? #ad


[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-14-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

MM-some of the guys are going to want to know if you did it by hand or on a press & what do you recommend? chris

 

[csutton7]

Here's a little more info(for gas-there's no info for diesel-how rude of them):
1) Install pump as close to the pump as possible(4 feet or less) and as low as possible-we know this now

2) install a filter before the pump-sound like a good idea as I'm not sure there is a sock on the pickup tube-now what filter is the next question

3)supply line to pump & engine:
up to 250hp=5/16" or -04AN
up to 375hp=3/8" or -06AN
up to 550hp=1/2" or -08AN
up to 800hp=5/8" or -10AN

4) the return line is based on the pump's gph rating not engine HP:
up to 45gph= 5/16" or -04AN
up to 90gph=3/8" or -06AN
up to 180gph=1/2" or -08AN
up to 360gph=5/8" or -10AN

5) use a regulator after the pump

Mallory makes a 3 port regulator which should work great for our trucks, but you may still want to run a separate return line to the tank instead of tieing into the stock return line--this is the only real pain I see with the pump upgrade, but if it can determined that a wye can go at the tank head return port w/ a check valve in the stock return then that simplifies the return line and then it's up to you to determine whether or not to increase your supply line sizes as posted above----

chris

 

[csutton7]

according to the service manual(1999) there is a filter in the tank-so we don't need a filter pre pump--and there is an auxilliary capped fitting on the tank module, so we may not need TJ's upgrade kit to make the BG pump work although it is probably not a bad idea--further review will be needed to see what this auxilliary capped fitting will allow us to do, but it would be great if the separate return line could use this port vs drilling the stock module, if that's even possible or using TJ's tank head & drilling it out -chris

[This message has been edited by csutton7 (edited 03-15-2001). ]

 

[Big K]

csutton7,
Summit offers an inline, cleanable screen filter. Available with -6 or -8 male outlets. Priced very reasonably. I have one pre-pump on my racer. One way to know what's being pulled from the tank.

Good job guys!

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'99 2500 QC 4x4 Auto 4:10
'01 Durango SLT+
Eric

 

[Evan A. Beck]

Where can I order a Mallory 4140? I am going to be doing major fuel system upgrades soon, and the transfer pump is the center of the upgrade.

 

[BigCarl64]

Evan,

Here is where I got mine from.
http://www.centuryperformance.com/detail. asp?Product_ID=MAL-4150

 

[csutton7]

OK guys I just got part of my JEGS shipment in and now have to update some info as the ol' BG tech boys are not quite in tune with their products--can you believe that???!!!! I was under the assumption-due to them-that the regulator that came with the BG220HR pump was only a two port design--well it has 3 ports, which makes the cost come down on the BG system(you don't have to buy the other regulator-that comes with the BG220PS-as I had stated in an earlier post here or at the HOLLEY posts). The other thing is the supplied regulator looks to be 1/2"(-08AN) and not 5/8"(-10AN) as the -10AN fitting won't screw into it & -06AN is to small.
So this will reduce the cost of this setup but how much is yet to be determined as need the backordered parts and some have yet to be delivered. It also seems to me that you don't have to drill out the filter head, you could and it wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it's absolutley needed & here's why. If you do drill out the inlet to the filter, but don't drill out the filter outlet or the VP44 inlet(as I've been told) you have restriction at those points, so why not move the starting point of restriction to the filter inlet. OK it may make the pump work a little easier to drill out the filter head, but how much?? The flow will be restricted by the regulator in the first place. Now what remains to be seen is supply line to the pump and the return line to the tank---I'm going to go look right now and see what I'm up against---chris

 

[csutton7]

Well if you're going to upgrade the supply line-tank drop is mandatory unless we can use the auxilliary capped port to rig something up as a new pickup. Even then tank drop may be required. Does anybody know what the auxilliary port is? Threaded? What size? Any info on this thing?? How about tapping into the tank on the front near the bottom?? There's got to be a way this can be done without to much pain & suffering if you want to increase the supply line size. But maybe not!! Or what about another tap into the tank fill line with hose inside the fill line to the bottom of the tank. Help I'm getting out of control.
Now on the return line all we need to do is find a tee fitting for the fuel tank fill that we could tap into or could we tap into the smaller fuel fill overflow line. I don't see why this couldn't be accomplished with relative easiness. Any thoughts on this and the above?? chris

 

[Brandon]

been working alot but I posted some info about fuel lines on my site
http://www.mypage.onemain.com/Brandon&Danelle/index.htm


I am updating it right now

Yes Vaughn I agree with light changes to the pump such as 3/8 port on lift pump, upgraded kit is easy, or even with pump relocation it is easy to just use a union on the upgraded kit, I am only concerned about dramatic changes to the system such as 8an lines, if that is so then the upgraded 6an in not the ticket
I just take a very conservative approach, I dont like to make double work
B



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END THE OPPRESSION FREE HVAC NOW
Danelle's Dodge

 

[Arcticat]

Chris good work on the Bomb run although I'm sure you're feeling like the only thing that is Bombed is your credit card, probably getting hot enough to melt at this point. I know the feeling, I bought everything Earls had that might work for plumbing so i could look at it and decide exactly how I wanted to plumb the new pump in. So I have about three times as much parts as I need, meanwhile my Visa statement showed up today.

As for the filter housing, I am leaving mine stock, IOW keeping the 12mm thread so that I can put the stock system back together when and if I ever sell the truck. I recieved today a few Parker adapters, 12mm male to 1/4 NPT female. They are a steel fitting, so they have enough strength to drill out to 5/16, which I would definately not do with aluminum. They have a nice sealing washer/o-ring that seals well against the injection pump, and the filter housing. At the injection pump and the inlet of the fuel filter housing I am using a 90deg. 1/4npt male to -8AN male adapter then just straight -8 swivel hose ends. On the outlet of the filter housing I am using a 90deg 1/4male npt to -8AN female adapter. The -8AN female fitting will allow me to put a pressure gauge adapter in at that point. Also I picked up some 3/8 compression fittings today - I think I'll just get rid of the stock metal supply right to the fuel pickup and run -8An right from the tank to the new pump.

BTW I was looking at my service manual today trying to find some info about the capped off fitting in the fuel tank module. No info about it, they just refer to it as an "auxiliary non-pressurized supply fitting". What is doing there? The gas engine fuel tank module is completely different, so why did they see fit to put this capped off line in just for the diesels? And why do they call it "non-pressurized", as if there was a fuel pump inside the tank? Anyway I don't see why you couldn't put the return from your regulator on this capped fitting.

I'm sure we'll all have some good info to post on Monday. The first thing I am going to do is replace the line from the filter to the injection pump, just so I can get my pressure gauge sender installed. Then I'll take a drive to get a baseline of what the stock pump is doing. Then the rest. Good luck this weekend.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

i'm going to post a seperate thread on my banjo bolt mod , complete with pics , speaking of pics i'll snap a couple of pics of that pickup i have in my office at work so you can see what you are dealing with on that extra port . i think that port is a pickup for say an espar or something on that line as it doesn't go as deep into the tank as the engine supply line .

chris good thought on using the fill tube or even that over flow tube as a return path . >>> EDIT , using the fill tube over may be a bad thought as i myself always fill my tank to that overflow tube , sometimes above it #ad
<<<< i can tell you after today with my banjo bolt experiment that the BG pump is overkill. next test will be moving the stock pump rearward .

arcticat , i was going to hog out my filter housing , i pulled it to change the banjos on the stock pump , there is plenty of meat in it . oh and the line between the stock pump and the filter housing is a piece of rubber fuel line with a preformed "L" ,only about 6 inches in length , having all those adaptors is going to make that line longer than it needs to be .

here's a thought on the pickup point for a pressue gauge , i was planning on drilling and tapping a 1/8th npt into the side of that parker steel fitting once i screwed in the -8 right angle fitting .

brandon after talking to arcticat last nite , we feel a restriction is being created in those -6 lines , the swept 90 id is smaller that the line connected to it , i'll have a few in hand tomorrow so i'll be able to confirm it . the better solution is to make those lines from pump to filter to pump out of -8 line , will better duplicate the factory 3/8ths od line .

chris don't drop that tank yet , the factory pickup is giving me 7. 5 - 8. 5 ( could see the number better this am ) psi at cruise ( 70 mph and its 11 psi at idle , this is at the injection pump inlet) with a 15k plus mile filter ( i know i need to change it), never below 5 psi WOT 275's and VA , modified banjos and all factory stock lines (and lift pump) right to the injection pump .

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-16-2001). ]

 

[Brandon]

maybe on the 8an but I know my press stayed the same with the spa gauges, and so I cant say much about being more restrictive, i'll check my fittings in the morn,
Have we really defined what the goal of all this r&D is

lift pump durability or

more fuel like hvac, to get ultra horsepower,

I kinda feel like this is snowballing into "the biggest pump syndrome"

I think the goal is to maintain 11psi at wot with some ddIII and some fueling boxes,

help me out here guys, I have lost sight of the true goal(s)

dependability
or
Bombing
or both

B

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END THE OPPRESSION FREE HVAC NOW
Danelle's Dodge