i have the scoop on the lift pump problem

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Brandon, nice fuel line pictures on your site. I think I've seen those somewhere before #ad


Vaughn

 

[Brandon]

Vaughn I believe I still gave you credit, sorry for the perjury, "I didnt inhale"


hope its ok, I am so behind with everything, the site helps me answer more people at once, I am making kits and speccing them out for people, whatever it takes

ps my site has been pretty volatile lately, but it is patched up with some duct tape right now so its operational

If anyone wants to add any info to my site about fuel lines its appreciated, I use the cut and paste method and dont give credit, he he he, If anyone wants to fix it themselves, a 10 yr old could probably hack that thing,
B... ... ... ... ... ... .

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END THE OPPRESSION FREE HVAC NOW
Danelle's Dodge

 

[csutton7]

MM--wye adapter for sure-just need to find something that is compatible with diesel- glad I don't have to drop the tank-now I can send TJ's stuff back-that'll help the ccard statement to drop to 2 envelopes vs 3. yea the BG is probably overkill but I'm banking on longevity due to the regulator & return line.

Articat--yea -08AN from tank to pump sounds good--so you're gonna drill out those new fittings & then put them on the filter & VP44 cuz the id is smaller than the holes in the filter & VP44-is that right--do you have part #'s?

-good move on the -06AN 90's guys-I believe you may be right

Brandon---you're gonna have to quit your day job cuz once we get this figured out you're gonna be making lines for a long time--I'll get you some measurements once I've got it set up--tank to pump--pump to regulator-regulator return to overflow fill & regulator supply to filter.

this is way to much fun and it will be interesting to see which pump performs and lasts the longest--

the dreaded CHECK ENGINE light came on tonight and I'm not sure if its Holley pump(warning light sure blinks alot) related or if DTT related or something else--Hopefully I can check her out tomorrow--she ran fine----chris

[This message has been edited by csutton7 (edited 03-16-2001). ]

 

[Brandon]

blinking mil light is bad chris, pull code and call me
I can refer to the service manual if you dont have one
B


my fuel line web site is up

Brandon&Danelle

[This message has been edited by Brandon (edited 03-16-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

It's the red warning light on the SPA guage that's blinking more than it did before not the check engine light--should've been more clear--sorry--I'll try to pull the code later--thanks chris

 

[Brandon]

I totally agree with you mopar, thats the intentions of all this, I just wanted to make sure, I was impressed with the racor unit coming out, I have looked at it in the test fords that come through my shop,
check out this linkhttp://www.dieselpage.com/art0500rf.htm

Ithink this could be a hot setup and more easily adept to our purposes, but its RACOR, not ford

gimme input, the unit looked really nice



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Danelle's Dodge

 

[Mopar-muscle]

yes brandon , that looks like a sweet unit , has me thinking now of a filter pre pump if that is a problem we are incuring , one thing i see as a problem is the 60 psi output , can we get a regulator that will cut the 60 down to 15 and live ? this may be a unit for the next generation common rail system .

if the common rail system is anything like the nightmares its caused on the ford side , i'll pass , but thats a different subjet #ad

 

[Brandon]

ok I have to say it, It is for fords, but I am pretty impressed with the entire package "fuel conditioning" in one package, It says that it has a regulator, soooooooooooo maybe it could work? If so then we change fuel filter it will fire right up like the fords, now that would be nice
B

 

[rubberneck]

Brandon, if anybody is thinking the high pressure pump might be the next avenue to explore, they have got to check out paxton pumps. Again, i don't know if running one of these high pressure pumps and then regulating them down to 15 psi will be too good on them, but if it will work the paxton's will be the best IMHO. I have one on an injected VW offroad car. The quality of these things is awesome and they can move some fuel. If the BG and the Mallory don't pan out, I'll yank the one off of my Vdub and try it on my pick up (if the stupid thing ever shows up) phil
PS. don't want to get the cart ahead of the horse, but it may be something to look at
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2001 ETH DEE 4X4 QC LB On order, supposedly built 2-23-01, we'll see when she gets here

[This message has been edited by rubberneck (edited 03-16-2001). ]

 

[Mopar-muscle]

brandon , this is a many faceted(sp?) task , first and for most is lift pump longevity , which will only be accomplished by either moving the single stock pump back to in front of the tank including its factory wiring , or adding another lower psi , similar volume pump in front of the stock to supply a good volume of fuel to make the stock pump live , carter says the factory installed the pump to far from the fuel source and this is what is killing these pumps , making the pickup and lines bigger without addressing the pump placement is also making the pump placement a problem as proven on a friends ram with a larger pickup that smoked 2 15psi HP pumps , pulling an even larger column of fuel over 6 plus feet isn't helping the pump one bit .

next is eliminating the flow restrictions to the injection pump , the volume is the concermn , i think the overflow returning 70% of the fuel is our undoing as we are trying to overcome that continuious return flow , or in my case keep up with it and maintain line pressure that is acceptable . i have DD3's in the back of the truck , they may find there way in the engine before my ride home this evening .

HVAC type fueling is a different thing all together , Ted J's pickup is the first step along with a BG type pump as close to the fuel sourceas possible and 1/2 inch hardline to a low restriction filter and -8 or -10 line to the pump is required . but that type of fueling will require a fuel cell with a sump instead of a pickup so your fuel source is gravity feed at all times .

what i am trying to do right now is help out the baby bomber , this stuff ain't cheap .

 

[csutton7]

When I called Paxton about the 300 pump--they said no go on using it--can't remember the exact reason, but right when I asked a question about it he said NO WAY w/o hesitation. (I talked to too many guys that day so I can't remember exact reason, but I think he said it's strictly a race pump and won't last) Are you talking about another Paxton pump?
The BG install is under way------chris

 

[B. Gill]

rubberneck, i dont think that high pressure is the factor there it is more like volume at low pressure. on your VW was the stock bosch pump not supplying enough fuel to the engine ?

 

[rubberneck]

Chris, i am not talking about the 300 pump, I am running one of the paxton granatelli series pumps designed for fuel injection systems.
B. Gill,
1. I am with you on the low pressure high volume idea. I threw my . 02 in on this because brandon had mentioned the high pressure fuel conditioning systems on the phoords. again, i don't know if one of these babys will last if you regulate the pressure down to 15 psi, but if any pump would i imagine they will, however, at $300+ a pop, i don't really want to expirement without talking to the paxton guys.

2. as far as the bosch pump on my vw, i never had one. this is a 2215 cc type 1 engine that i expiremented using a ford eec IV injection system on. worked great on a mild performance motor, but the eec IV processor is not fast enough for the new motor (only efficient up to 6200 rpm) I turn this baby 8500. puts out about 235 hp, so i am switching to a haltech programable system and still using the granatelli pump since i had it already. phil (sorry for the super loooong post)

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2001 ETH DEE 4X4 QC LB On order, supposedly built 2-23-01, we'll see when she gets here

 

[B. Gill]

thanks for the answer Phil
no your post was not long at all
i was just curious to find out as Bosch is the OEM on VWs and they are quite reliable and long lasting as well
bob

 

[csutton7]

I talked to a mechanic last night at a party and he thought that possibly algae build up in the tank or maybe something else that could block or partially block the in-tank filter may be part of the problem to the early retirement of the Carter--just another thing to think about--if your fuel pressure is crappy--you'll need to apply some air pressure to the system and backflush the system--open diesel (gas) cap, remove the fuel line at the pump and apply air pressure thru the line into the tank--reconnect everything and see if your pressure went up any--if it didn't--lift pump replacement-- just some more info---chris

 

[Brandon]

I am not hung up on the fuel conditioner because it is high press, just because it can be regulated (built in) and it has all we need in one unit, think the racor guys would miss it if I swiped it off the truck when we serviced it hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?????

B
ford to dodge transplant oh ya

 

[csutton7]

BG is in and WHEW--I don't ever want to see a stainless steel braided hose or fitting for at least a week--man those things can get to ya--
here's how I plumobed it---
1) tapped in a 1/2" brass flare tee into the fill overflow line(rubber hose) for my return
2) disconnected the quick disconnect from the tank and slipped a 9" pc of -06AN hose w/clamp w/a -06 to -08 union on the other end
3) mounted the pump right in front of the tank-there are 2 holes in the bottom of the frame I took a pc electrical solder and fished it thru the holes & wrapped it around the bolts and pulled them thru-then I took a simpson stair tread bracket and bolted it up and bolted the pump to it-you need two -10 to -08 unions
4) ran a -08 line from the -06/-08 union to the pump
5) made a bracket out of a Simpson clip to hold the regulator and fastened this to the frame--you need three 1/2" pipe to -08
6) 08 hose from pump to regulator, -08 hose w/ a 90* fitting from regulator return port to the brass tee & -08 hose to filter w/ a 90* fitting and had to use a -06/-08 union, -06 coupling to get connected
7) ran the OEM pump electrical thru a relay and your ready

This BG pump is AWESOME right now it's set at 13 psi and dropped to 12 pst @ WOT--I'll up the pressure to 14 or 15 psi in couple of days--this pump has a pretty good hum to it-you can hear it humming while your driving, it blends in with the motor quite well, but you can hear it-if ya turn on the radio at it's lowest volume you can't hear it--she's a rock steady pumper, but time will tell--

the overall install is not to bad and would be even better if you didn't use all ST. STL. braided hose like I did(I had never put together ST. STL. hose & fittings this was an ordeal to say the least, plus chasing down all the fittings)

Now Blackdemon installed his pump by tapping into the factory lines and I'm fairly sure Chad Sheets did too and this would be the easiest to do if their pumps show good longevity

parts list:you must decide if you're going to use socketless or Aeroquip type fittings

12" pc of -06 hose w/ hose clamp
-06 hose end
2-08/-06 unions
-06 female/female coupling
2-08 90* bend
7-08 ends
1/2" brass tee(flared)
3-1/2" pipe to -08AN
20' of -08 hose(this will be more than enough)
2-10/32 x 1/2" screws for the regulator
2-1/4" x 1" or 1. 5" bolts w/nuts & washers
2-self tapping metal screws(regulator bracket to frame)
9" Simpson stair tread angle
Simpson clip(L clip 2" x 1. 5" x 2"or2. 5"wide)
2-hose clamps for the 1/2" brass tee)
30 amp relay
assortment of wire and connectors

good luck---chris

[This message has been edited by csutton7 (edited 03-19-2001). ]

 

[Mopar-muscle]

heres an update ...

things slowed down this weekend , first summit botched the shipping and my parts did not arrive , i did however find the carter pump local to me for 10 bucks more than summit , which if i add in the summit handling charge mde it only 3 bucks more , and i could have gotten those silly 12mm to -6 for about 50 cents more a pop , and faster too . most of this summit order is going back , i may hang onto the pump though , i'm going to need something for my superbee #ad
.

anywho , still holding strong at 8 psi cruising with a drop to 4-5 wide open , but not with the EDGE powered on , that thing is thirsty and still drops pressure to nothing , i think it is just too much fuel demand for the stock banjos , but i still have a very dirty filter , can't find one anywhere except for the freightliner dealer or cummins and both their weekends hours are limited , cummins northeast is NOT open on weekends .

i have been on the phone back n forth with arcticat on this , heads up he gave me after talking to sportbike is a restriction on the inlet side of the fuel filter , the fuel heater blocks direct flow , he just drilled a hole thru it so there is a direct fill , as the fuel heater is a big restriction , ands his pressure increased to 15 psi idle , and never went below 12 with just 275 , withthe edge on a HOT HOT 3 he never saw less that 7 psi , this was with 4 of the 5 stock banjo fittings in place , and they were modified as i outlined , he also saw a 2 psi pressure increase with the modified banjos , so there is something to be gained by doing it .

i will finish getting the pics off the camera at work , this week will be very busy at work for me so bear with me on this , trying to do it in steps so everyone can figure out how much they need to do .

i did pull out my fuel heater , saw maybe a . 5 psi increase , i was a bit leary of drilling straight thru mine as it would cut down on the heater doing its thing . upon loooking at the heater it looks like a small maze and all incomming fuel is heated before it gose thru the filter , i'm hoping to add a few holes not directly inline with the inlet to increase flow , first order of business to to get a filter on the way to work and install it , thoguh arcticat has a hi mileage filter also , it seems his lift pump is in a bit better shape than mine .

i have to go back and read this thread and make some notes , but right now we stand with modified banjos giving more than enough fuel for injectors and a VA/EZ type box , the post electronics boxes are another story . still going to move the pump as it is to far away from the fuel source , all manufacturers have the pumps in their gas vehicles with fuel injection INSIDE the fuel tan k , not 6 to 9 feet away #ad
also ask ANY racer where the prefered placement of an electric fuel pump is . .

 

[rubberneck]

Originally posted by csutton7:
BG is in and WHEW--I don't ever want to see a stainless steel braided hose or fitting for at least a week--man those things can get to ya--

Those baby's can be fun (how many times did you poke your finger with the stainless braid? ouch that hurts) LOL.
As far as the noise, when i had my paxton pump in a street car it was the most obnoxious thing you have ever heard. sounded like i had weed wacker running in my trunk. I made some rubber pad mounts out of some 1/2 inch rubber. I cut them out with a 1&1/4 holesaw then sandwitched the pump bracket in between two of them at each bolt location, i would say it cut the noise by at least half. phil

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2001 ETH DEE 4X4 QC LB On order, supposedly built 2-23-01, we'll see when she gets here

 

[Arcticat]

Sorry for not having anything to report as to whether the summit was going to be a viable solution. As of right now I don't need it. But I did learn a few things that will help put this puzzle together. The first thing I did was plumb an -8AN line from fuel filter housing to injection pump(which allowed me to hook up my new fuel pressure gauge), and from lift pump to filter housing. I did also drill out my fuel heater band as the it places what looks to me to be a huge restriction on fuel flow at the inlet of the filter housing. I decided to take a drive just to see how bad things were with the stock pump. , still planning to put the summit in. Lo and behold I saw 15psi at idle, 12psi cruising at 75, and would not go below 8psi at WOT. This was just with 275 injectors, but nonetheless I was impressed. So I thought I would see what I would get with a PE installed. Now mind you this is a HOT HOT PE, with regular PE 3 as level one, HOT PE 3 as level two, and piston melting, gauge exploding level three. I also put the stock banjo bolts back on the lift pump outlet and the filter housing inlet. This was so I could also do a test on the benefits of modified banjo bolts. Took for a spin and saw a low of 5psi WOT, 12psi cruising 75, 15psi at idle still. Then I took out the three stock banjo's still in the system, (lift pump in and out, filter housing in) and modified them to Mopar Muscle specs. I drilled the four cross holes in the bolt out to 13/64, and the hollow of the bolt itself out to 21/64. This represents a huge increase in cross-sectional area that fuel can flow through. I put them back in and just by modifying these three bolts I picked up another 2psi at WOT! Foot to the floor I lifted off at 85mph seeing 42psi of boost and the fuel pressure slowly dropped to 7psi and would not go any lower!

Soo I am left wondering what to do. I certanly cannot complain about 7psi at WOT 42psi boost. And the parts I actually put on the truck only cost me around $75. Only time will tell if the stocker hold up. I will have DDIII's and HX40 installed soon, and I am anticipating that the extra fuel demand will finally overcome the poor Carter and I'll have to go through with the Summit pump back at the tank. BUT, I think we have learned a couple things. One, that the only way you are going to know how your lift pump is doing is to put a pressure gauge in. There is no formula that says that X type of mods on Y model year truck with Z type fuel line upgrades will yield predictible results. Some pumps are good and some are bad. I know this has been known for awhile but there was a perioud of time where people thought, including me, that all they had to do was put in a fuel line kit and everything was going to be fine. Two, modifying your own banjos is a viable alternative to new fuel lines FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE MILD MODS. Side by side on the same day and same road I saw a 2psi increase in pressure at WOT just by modifying three of the five bolts. This is comparable to what people have seen with new lines on the stock lift pump such as what Vaughn first developed. Also the only cost is your time or a small cost for machining if you don't have the tools to do it yourself.

Csutton, great work, it appears that the BG is a no-nonsense aproach that has not yielded a bad result yet. I will be needing more fuel delivery real soon, and I'll most likely be joining you in the new relocated pump club soon. In the meantime we are gathering some great info that might be helpfull to those that are not ewilling to go as far in money , time and HP as we are. I'll keep reporting any new info as I go up the HP ladder.