i have the scoop on the lift pump problem

[Morphious]

CSutton, just send your wife to the beauty salon for the day, will give you plenty of time to install the new exhaust system... .

Morph.
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'99 2500 4x4 QC Std transmission, Purple (usually Mud Red), 10 Disc Changer, 285x75Rx16 BFG Mudders, Amr. Racing Baja Wheels, Gooseneck hitch, 275lb King Klaw front bumper, Towing/Camper packages. DDIII's, Exhaust, TTPM, Boost Module. Fuel Pressure, EGT adn Boost Guages. Mallory Fuel Pump. (fastest farm truck around). And can't forget the hydraulic PigSticker.

2001 Yamaha Raptor, dropped tooth on front sprocket, sand skate II tires on rear.

1965 Chevy 1/2 ton Pickup, 350-350hp/2spd powerglide, PS, PB, Disc Brakes on the front, Tilt, Fuel Cell, 3. 73 posi.

26ft Gooseneck Flatbed Trailer, 2 horse bumper pull, Round bale Trailer.

1960 Farmal 340 Diesel Tractor.

[This message has been edited by Morphious (edited 03-19-2001). ]

 

[Brandon]

sooooooooooo shall we try a full 8an line set with drilling out the weber adaptors?????? possibly this and a slightly better non oem pump mallory? do the trick for us milder people? 350 or less???????
what is the consensus

bg and 8-10 an all the way for guys wanting 350 plus,??????????????/

B

 

[csutton7]

Morphious-cheaper to have a shop do it than send the wife anywhere--

Brandon--yesssirrrreeee--do they make a weber to -08AN--I couldn't find them thus my 06 female coupling to the 06/08 union

My next project is to install Ted J. 's tank cap/sending unit/pump supply/return and then I'll have the OEM tank cap module to see if something can be done with it, but Mopar Muscle may be wrenching on the OEM unit as we speak---

couple of pics--

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The reason I'm going to use TJ's setup is to get a 08 line from deep in the tank to the pump for a full 08 setup to the filter and then later I will upgrade the filter to VP44 line to 08---chris

 

[Mopar-muscle]

chris , looks good , pic is a bit dark . there is no weber to -8 adaptor , but arcticat modified a swivel -8 to 1/4 npt to fit the 12mm thread , i'm going to do this also . chris once you switch to the 1/2 inch pickup you'll be ready for HVAC type HP levels #ad
. your credit card company should be sending you an XMAS card next season #ad
.

brandon , an -8 setup would be good for the higher HP levels . what is HVAC using for a fuel filter housing ? i'm going to drill some extra holes in my fuel heater , none inline with the filter inlet .

i'm still preplexed about my pressures , biggest difference between me and other's readings ,is i'm making mine right at the injection pump , where as everyone else is at the filter housing , i'm going to modify another schrader banjo and put it at the filter housing to see what i get . i have found a great use for the schrader valve adaptor , bleeding the line to the pinjection pump of air so it will start faster after a filter change where you drain the filter housing completely . i HAVE to incorporate something like this into my new lines .

with a fresh filter i see . 5 maybe 1 psi more , still drops to 4 psi WOT without the PE on , PE on still drops to nothing but not as quickly , it does seem that my cruise psi is up to 9 with the new filter though . i'm going to drop the tank tonite to get a line on the tank and run my second pump .

arcticat couple things , first , you say you only have 3 of the 5 stock banjos , where are you not using the stocks ? between the stock lift pump and the filter inlet ? and you have it wrong on that PE levels . you have a stock level 2 in the number 1 position , a stock level 3 in the 2 position and 2 steps up in level 3 , a step hotter than the box you had that went south .

 

[Arcticat]

Mopar, I replaced the banjo's on the injection pump, and the outlet of the filter housing. I used the Parker fitting on the injection pump and made my own fitting for the filter outlet.

Brandon, there's no weber adapter that will work with -8 that I am aware of. All of the fittings that aeroquip, earls, russel, speedflow, etc make with a 12mmX1. 5 thread are for -6. You are left with three options. One, use the weber adapter and then a -6 to -8 union. Two, use the parker fitting that sportbike located, 12mm male to 1/4 NPT female. Then use 1/4 npt to -8 fittings or hose ends, of which there are plenty to choose from, angles, tee's, etc. The problem with both of these is you end up with too much crap cantilevered off the wimpy alluminum adapters, especially if you have a pressure guage adapter and sender. One thing the Parker fitting has going for it is that it's steel, which means you can bore it out bigger, and it won't snap off in the injection pump so easily like alluminum. Also with all these fittings and adapters, the line from the injection pump to filter housing gets right in the way of the powersteering pump and makes it a pain to take the cap off or add fluid, or at least that how it works on my truck. The third option is by far the best in my mind with less fittings and thus chance for leaks, and the neatest looking install. That would be using a -8 to 1/4npt 90 deg. hose end. Earls calls it a "cast" fitting, rather than a swept or tube fitting. It has a swivel end on it that can be removed, chucked in a lathe, and turned down and rethreaded to 12mm right to a flat spot at the base of the fitting. Then it will accept the stock banjo crush washer/o-ring and seal nicely against the injection pump, with the line tucked within a half inch of the pump, just like the stock line. You would want to use one of these custom fittings at the injection pump, and one at the fuel filter inlet that would run to your new pump back at the tank. At the bottom of the filter housing, at the outlet, you would use a 90deg 1/4 NPT male to -8AN female, modified much like the hose end. This is what I made myself. I am waiting for the hose end from a machinist friend of mine. The female -8An allows you to put in a -8 fuel pressure gauge adapter, which is -8 male on both ends with the side of the fitting drilled and tapped for an 1/8 npt pressure sender. On the other end of the gauge adapter you just use a straight -8 hose end. Once I have the hose ends I have described in hand, my new pump back at the tank will be plumbed exactly like this.

Forget to add, John forgive me for not knowing the levels, I am ignorant about levels one and two because I have never used an Edge in any level other than three #ad
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[This message has been edited by Arcticat (edited 03-19-2001). ]

 

[Evan A. Beck]

Is 08 AN line really needed on the injection pump side? Why not run 08 line from the tank to the pump, and from the pump to the filter? Then run 06 line from the filter to the injection pump.

Here's my plan:

--08 AN line from the tank to a Mallory 4140 pump

--08 AN line from 4140 pump to fuel filter canister

--06 AN line from filter canister to injection pump, with an inline fitting for my fuel pressure sender.

Only problem I am seeing is getting the 08 AN line to work at the tank end. Anyone got an idea on this?

One last thing, I see there are two 140 gph Mallory pumps available. A regular version and a marine version. Anyone know more about the differences between the two?

 

[csutton7]

Evan--two options that are availabe: Ted Jannetty's tank module which comes in a kit(I'm pretty sure he will sell you just the tank head) or you do like I did and take 9" pc of -06 hose & clamp it on the tank outlet and use a -06 to -08 union on the other end and then run the -08 to the pump--I will be using TJ's tank head in the near future to eliminate the -06 hose---when I spoke to Ted he said no need to change the hose from filter to VP44 if you have a -06 hose already. If you don't have -06 line then I think that drilling out the banjo's would be smart. Articat's system is probably as far as we can go & I think it is probably the best!!

MM-I'd sure like to hear what you find in the tank & the tank module--Ted J. said it's ridiculous, so post it ASAP---credit card statement will look like it's BOMBed I know--co. expense---there's not much light under the red tank for photo's thus quality suffers---

Ok test drive number 2: psi set to 15-17 and from a dead stop with the overdrive off it'll drop to 8 psi for split second and go to 11 psi until I let off then up to 13-15 psi-these SPA guages are sensitive and give you the scoop like right now-- readings are with the SPA guage post filter--it will be interesting to see what the DDIII's & Edge will do to this setup --found another small leak in the return brass tee hose clamp connection and put a rubber gasket between pump and mount it helped a little in the sound dept. , but you can hear this pump when you turn on the ignition--it runs for 3-4 seconds & shuts off until you start cranking--and then she hums a gloriousy tune until you turn your radio on----

Yea I know I'm setting up for huge HP, but I'm not sure I'll go tomuch beyond my proposed set-up, well maybe twins if EGT's are too much--but after talking to TED J. again today he said you're crazy not to increase the line from tank to pump with a -08-cuz you're making the pump work harder than needed with the stock pickup line and short pc of -06 hose--I told him I understood(it makes sense & I knew this, but I wasn't sure if I could just get his tank module or not), but since I had to get up & running and since I'm up & running I didn't need his whole system and I was going to ship it back , but that I would like the tank module and he said keep what you want and ship the rest back & I'll charge you only for what you keep--that's pretty cool as he did spend some time figuring out the fittings that would be needed, so I can't complain and will keep the tank module & throw it in soon---this will give some more test data when it's complete---chris

[This message has been edited by csutton7 (edited 03-19-2001). ]

 

[Arcticat]

Why run -8AN from fuel filter to VP44? The question in my mind would be why not? The system is only as good as it's weakest link. Case in point the OEM fuel lines - the supply lines themeselves are not bad at all in terms of size. But the banjo's neck it down. Also the hose is expensive and you would do better to buy a 10' piece of -8 that will go the whole way than a 10' piece of -8 AND a 3' piece of -6 for a line that's only a foot long. Unless you have a source that will cut the line to your specs, my only option was mail order in 3', 10', and 20' lengths. If it's the fitting dillema I described earlier that makes you want to use -6, you are still going to have to do one of the adaptations I described for the filter housing inlet.
As far as the tank goes here's two more options besides what Chris suggested (BTW nice truck Chris!) Use a 3/8 compression to flare adapter and thread your -8 hose end right on. Or do what I've got half a mind to do - cap the stock pickup, take a holesaw (I know you've got them) to the tank, put in a bulkhead and bend up your own 1/2 pickup out of alluminum tube and slip the -8 right over that with a hoseclamp, or use a 1/2 compression to flare adapter.
One more question, why did you decide to go with the Mallory instead of the BG when they both cost about the same? The BG looks like it's in a whole different league to me.

 

[Un-Hemi]

Does anyone have the pressure/volume plot for the OEM Carter pump? I looked at the plots give for the 4150 Holley on the Holley site, and would like to have something to compare it to. If the Carter draws *12* Amps, it must (should) be a pretty stout pump! Does anyone know what the zero-flow max pressure of the stock pump is? I haven't seen it posted anywhere since I started lurking a couple of months ago. Just curious, and considering options for when my stock pump calves! Thanks, guys.

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

i'm still looking to see what the stock pickup is capable of handling , for those that can't , nor desire emptying their wallet for a part they may not need . until recently the JRE kit never addressed the restrictions past the lift pump and it probably still doesn't , unless you ask for it, it doesn't matter if you feed the filter housing with a 20 inch diameter pipe , sending it out thru a straw on the other side is still going to give the same problem ,ask the guy that burned out 2 carter 15psi pumps in a couple months with it mounted in the stock location pulling a larger column of fuel thru a 1/2 inch pickup and supply line.

i'm sure there are a few people waiting in the wings once this free test session is thru , not knocking them , if i was worried about someone making a buck off my knowledge i would have never started this thread or shared the info i'm gaining .

sharing info to save someone else the grief and possibly some money ,is what i have learned the TDR is all about .

 

[csutton7]

MM--very true indeed--and I think you're dead on that Ted J. 's upgrade stops at the OEM pump location, maybe he'll change that maybe not--

Articat--I think-& I agree if this is what TED thinks or knows-that Ted figures that if you don't do something to the filter or banjo's to get more fuel in & out then what does it matter if the line is the stock set up or -06 or -08(I think he liked the idea of the -06 upgrade line though)--now we know less restriction is the rule by which we are playing, no matter what size of line we run, and you're a dead on with the smallest hole we have to get thru as being the weakest link in any system--but let's think of this if we need to increase the length of travel due to fittings for -08 line from the filter to VP44 is this better than the shortest route with a smaller line--in this case how much increase are we talking-2"-3" maybe--hard to tell if it's better or not, but if we can keep the same psi with a bigger line then this would definitley be better as we should get more volume with the bigger line--your system of drilling out the steel fittings is super and I think it warrants going to the -08 line, but only if you've increased the id fitting size to bigger than -06--was this the case(I can't remember if you said so or not)--when you drilled thru the fuel heater did you drill thru both inlet and outlet(99's inlet & outlet are on top of the filter) and what do you think you're consequences will be for doing so(we know your pressure & volume will be improved, but have you done something long term to the system or if you're in a cold area what will this do?) I'm just asking cuz I haven't read up on the fuel heater and what parameters does it come on and shut off---If the fuel heater is a non issue then I'd say gotta do it-----chris

 

[csutton7]

MM & Articat--great info and way to go--I really wanted to relocate the Holley and do a test run with it, time became a major stumbling block-not to mention the wife becoming more & more irritated with the amount of time spent on the truck---Ok I just upped the pressure to 15psi @ idle and see what gives--I had it set to 13 psi & w/OD turned off when I punched it psi dropped to 7 for a split second and then to 11 psi--I did find a little leak at one of the fittings and have tightened it, so next report will come later----this is w/ EZ, K&N, DTTvb&tc & 4:10 gears 35" tires 4x4----soon DDIII's, Hot Hot Edge, ATS manifold, HX40 & 4" Jardine exhaust---the exhaust is here, but I have to go into stealth mode if I'm going to install it or have a shop do it, due to wife----chris

 

[Mopar-muscle]

chris , fuel heater and point of taking readings seem to be at issue , i am reading directly at the inlet to injection pump , everyone else is reading at filter housing , i'm going to move my read point back to filter housing to see if it makes a difference .

i removed the fuel heater completly from my truck , no difference that i could tell , i'm going to modify mine to flow more fuel , but still attempt to do its designed task .

going to the -8 line from the filter housing to the injection pump is not adding much if any length , the 2000 has a different fuel filter , both your lines go in and out thru top of canister , 200 goes in the side at the top and out the bottom , thru the middle , it also has small holes , i think what i'm seeing is a big restriction in the 2000 filter housing , though its nice to have the top loading filter , i may need to change it to the 99 style in the name of performance . i'm going to install the second lift pump tomorrow .

 

[Brandon]

currently working to see if 8an weber adaptors are available, no answer yet, anyone got them yet post them and the part numbers will go to my site, Chris you are cool all the ? I am gettting ready to ask you answer, same with you MM and articat(ps what it it you are riding now, I got a 700Rmk with 1 3/4 track for fun boondockin)
I wish I had more time to help R&D with you guys, I am literally so behind,, I am hanging by a thread. Soooooooo trying to help where I can, let me know if anyone needs anything that I can help with


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Danelle's Dodge

 

[rotohead]

Well, you can certainly count me as waiting in the wings for a better fuel delivery kit because nothing available after market addresses all the shortcomings. I'm not looking to make a buck on this, quite the contrary, I'm hoping someone is willing to make a buck on sharing the outcome of a successful fuel upgrade system they've researched and tested. I'm not capable of doing what you guy's are doing and I'm gratiful to be able to eavesdrop but ultimately I'm limited to buying aftermarket kits and hope my research is good.

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'98. 5 2500 QC ISB 4x4 SLT, Auto w/Transgo shiftkit, JRE 4" exhaust w/5"Tip, DD II's w/Module&Elbow, VA box, Rancho 9000's w/in cab adjust, Mag-Hytec trans&diff covers, Jacobs E-Brake w/BD autoloc, trans temp, boost & EGT gauges, 2Low Kit, Brite Box, Steel Horse Billet Grilles, AirBullDog hood induction system

 

[Mopar-muscle]

brandon , don't worry about helping out , just yet , i think we got it under control , chris has the different filter from myself and cat , and the 2 of us are going in different directions , him with one pump back at the tank , me with 2 pumps and stock lines ... for the moment .

don't think you will find that weber fitting , but so far cats mod is the best , i'm going to get a couple of those fittings and do the same thing , if i can get enough fuel to flow thru this filter it is going to be a miracle .

here's a question you may be able to answer since the sultan of HP is not , what is on HVAC ram for a fuel filter ? he has to have some HP aftermarket setup ???

oh , i ride a '95 XCR 600 , SLP triple piped and clutched , 150 studs , man does it hook , think it may be going to SLP this summer to get their big bore kit , 135 hp #ad
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or i'm going to get a new XCR 800 #ad


roto don't worry about my remarks above , sharing the info is what this thread is all about .


[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-20-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

--this just hit me--most electric pumps have the filter before the pump--so why not add a filter there, take the filter out of the OEM cannister drill out the ports to your hearts content & drill out the heater as needed and question is what's the downfall of this set up??I don't know---
Brandon how's that Racor set up with relation of pump, filter & heater--I never did check it out--going to do it now--chris

 

[Brandon]

slp stuff rules
dont get to sno mo much but when I do I always take away a souvenier such as tree parts and saplings, lots a boondockin out here in cali,

dont tell me I cant find a 8an weber adaptor, man I am hunting it hard, soooooooo then drilling it out might be nice to boot, at least I talked to Chris about that, so thats my part right now "parts chaser" man I am on it
HVAC has stock housing on right now but it is going south real quick he has a large spin on fuel filter that will be going on the frame at the tank, 1/2 npt ports, so you know what he has planned he he he he he
bottom line he is trashing the whole stock system funny thing is he is watching us right now to see what we come up with for a pump, guess the teacher is watching the students right now, kinda funny I think

I really wish ashland would chime in here and consider redeeming themselves and help develop a trick fuel delivery setup for us
That would make me think much more of them than I do right now
B... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

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Danelle's Dodge

 

[csutton7]

golly Moses that Racor unit is prteey cool to bad it won't work for us--the line sizes are probably what we have right now so that should tell us something--our lines are too small!!! How can that be? Well think about it the psi is great when idling(no engine load) but as soon as we get engine load the psi drops, more load= more drop(the lift pump cannot keep up with the VP44 when the VP44 gets the signal to roll on, I think that the VP44 gets the signal before the pump does) so we need more volume with some psi to keep up with the VP44's demand. Just beacause we have high pressure doesn't mean squat!! Someone said it early on in this thread that if you stand on a garden hose you increase the pressure(you've made the line smaller), but you don't increase the volume cuz you're taking "less" water or fuel and pushing it faster-LESS is the key- the VP44 needs fuel and lots of it and just because we increase our pressure doesn't mean we've increased the volume-sure the fuel is maybe getting there quicker in a smaller line with high pressure, but it's not enough fuel-we need both a high constant pressure with good volume, thus -08 all the way now makes the most sense, maybe bigger, but -08 is probably all we need. Now comes the stinkin filter in the middle of the mix causing restriction which is killing us, so let's move the dang filter to the rear put it before the pump which has been moved to the rear also. I really think this could be the way to go-- maybe shorten up the fuel heater/filter cannister(may not need to shorten it, just thinking out loud) or put an aluminum insert in it(to take up some space and drill away to increase our ports---what do y'all think--have I lost it--don't answer that cuz I know I have---

One other thought was to relocate the pickup tube closer to the bottom of the tank to keep the pump from having to suck up and over the tank or a bed mounted tank(Brandon & WIZ credit)makes a lot of sense--gravity fed is what these electric pumps like too---- good night---chris

 

[Brandon]

project number 2 for me is to find a higher flow fuel filter housing, i will look at the system on a 8. 3 and a couple of cats running around, in all honesty they are all spin on filters, this will be the way to go, maybe call old Joe and Tim at CW in san leandro they looooove me, well not really he he he
b