If You Use Fuel Additives - Emulsifyer or Demulsifyer & Why?

[tschwab]

There has been a great thread going about whether or not you are using fuel additives. This thread is to continue the debate of whether you are using an additive which is an Emulsifyer like Primrose and Redline which disperses the water into very tiny droplets which are supposed to safely pass through your fuel system or a Demulsifyer such as Stanadyne, Powerservice and others which cause the water to clump together and go to the bottem of your tank and then get seperated by your water/fuel separator.

 

[klenger]

Interesting topic. I use PowerService, mostly because I can get it at Wallyworld. The debate brings the question to my mind, "if either scheem works, then (from the aspect of water in the fuel) why use any treatment at all?"

 

[DBrickel]

I use stanadyne PF. It Idles smoother and seems to perform better with it than without. I use it in every other tank fill up.

 

[Jengle]

I have tried PS, but haven't noticed any differences with or without. Still don't find any water in the filter when I drain it. Probably drop it, since it doesn't seem to add anything, either better running or mpg. Truck runs fine without it.

 

[BarlowCummins]

I am currently using Redline at the moment, I have been using it for roughly about a month now and that comes out to be around 12 tank fulls. I have no complaints about it and I can get it for the same price as Stanadyne. However I have seen a 1 mpg gain with the Redline and I just put on 285/70/17 BFGS and have not seen mpgs go down yet. I always have used Stanadyne, at least 2 years on my old 02 and never had a problem with it, but also never saw a mpg gain. I'm not sure if the mpg gain is beccause of the Redline but I was sitiing at around 14. 3 or so and ever since I have used Redline it sits about 15. 4 mpg, who really knows? corey

 

[roperteacher]

I have used them all for the most part and found Valvoline SYNPOWER Cummins additive to really add power and MPG!!!! I think I lose mileage with powerservice. ????

 

[NIsaacs]

Using fuel additive is like the oujie (sp) board, if you believe in them, they will work, if you don't, they won't. I guess I can't vote, cuz there ain't no spot to check for, do not use



"NICK"

 

[Cattletrkr]

I've used PowerService, LucasOil additive, Conklin Diesel Plus, all with no change whatsoever. The only reason I run any additive anymore is for anti-gel purposes. Some/most of the antigels I run also "improve lubrication". Maybe in the long run we're better off, making the inj. pumps last longer, but I've never seen any power or mileage improvements or decrease in smoke.



My $. 02

 

[tschwab]

Where is the best place to buy Redline at over the internet? I have always used Stanadyne, but an Emulsifyer like Redline seems to make more sense? On the other hand, Stanadyne builds fuel injection pumps/systems and is OEM approved for several major automakers (DC/Cummins IS NOT on that list). Confusing - Huh?

 

[Kry226]

On the other hand, Stanadyne builds fuel injection pumps/systems and is OEM approved for several major automakers (DC/Cummins IS NOT on that list). Confusing - Huh?

Can't help with the first question, but I think it's only a matter of time before DC gets on board with a list of approved additives just like GM did with their HPCR. After a year or two of sinking money into replacing injectors under warranty for customers, GM cried Uncle! DC will come around sooner or later.

 

[BarlowCummins]

I used to get my Redline through www.srcc.biz but recently my internet says that it can not find its server. So I have done some searching and found another place www.247-parts.com and its alot cheaper. At srcc I was paying 52. 97 and no shipping charges and 247- parts charges 43. 20 and I'm not sure about shipping because I have not got any from them yet. hope this helps corey

 

[D Baker]

I had posted this awhile back and rather than link to it I thought I would post it here also. Each year (winter) these questions come-up and I have been really pleased with the PS product. I can get it at Wallmart, Farm & Fleet ect. and it dosen't cost an arm and leg. I do not work for PS in anyway just like the product. Hope this helps with questions.



With all this talk about water in the fuel I had to look at my bottle of Power Service. I didn't see anything on how it works to keep water out so I called the tech line and this is what he had to say. I asked if he could send it to me Email so I could post it and he did. It would take a very big bottle to put all of this on it. I used PS in my 99 all the time and I will continue to use it in my 03.



Hello Don,



Below is an email I sent to another customer that was asking the same questions you were. I hope this information helps. Also I would like to point out that Power Service Products, Inc. is the largest manufacturer of diesel fuel additives in the USA. More fleets use our products than any other product on the market.



International Truck and Engine Corporation manufactures the diesel engines in light-duty Ford Trucks and well as for their line of International diesel trucks. Power Service Products, Inc. is the only diesel fuel additive company to have a direct corporate-wide program with International. Not only does International Truck sell our products in their dealerships, all Ford Dealerships across the United States have access to Power Service Products through Blue Diamond Parts, LLC, which is a joint venture between Ford Motor Company and International Corporation. Also, Freightliner, Peterbilt and Mack also sell our products in their dealerships and they also buy from Power Service Products, Inc. No other additive company in America has such a presence in the marketplace.



It is OK with me if you wish to post this information. A Demulsifier, an emulsifier and a fuel solubilizer are all water dispersants. The emulsifier will pull water up into the fuel as small droplets and often will cause the fuel to be cloudy. All diesel fuel has water in it. The water that is in diesel fuel will not hurt or harm the motor, pumps or injectors. Our Diesel 911 is a solubilizer. It will take free water and combine it with the fuel so when you look at the fuel it is clear. Diesel 911 will combine with the fuel first and it will keep the water in the fuel from falling out. It then will act upon the free water in the system. If the fuel is dry and is not saturated with water, it will pick up more free water than when the fuel is wet. Low Sulfur diesel fuel usually has around 50 to 65ppm (parts per million) water in the fuel. When the water content of the fuel gets around 100ppm or higher, the more likely fuel filter icing will occur.

GM just recently issued a Technical Bulletin warning not to use any product with alcohols or emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are chemicals that pull water up into the fuel suspending the water as droplets in the fuel. Alcohols can adversely affect lubricity and the cheaper alcohols can damage pumps and injectors. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Ford has also come out with a Technical Bulletin not to use any alcohols but I have not seen any reports by Ford on emulsifiers.





Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can strip antigels out of your fuel. Also, there are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.



Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel to stop flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer can also help to pick up small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.





Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water.



There is a lot of misinformation about additives and water dispersants. When you use an additive like our Diesel Fuel Supplement or Diesel Kleen these are mixtures of additives in a package. These various chemicals have to be balanced so they will not separate when you mix them together. It doesn't matter if you use our additives or one of our competitors, a water dispersant takes a lot of room in the additive package. If you add a strong detergent, strong cetane, excellent lubricity, corrosion, top of the line antigel, and stability to the additive package there is not much room left for a water dispersant. A good multiple benefit package will always have a weak water dispersant package. It is a matter of chemistry. The only way to get a strong water dispersant is to get an additive whose top attribute is to control water.



If you think you have a water or water related problem then you need to use our Diesel 911 to take care of the water. Diesel 911 is completely compatible with Diesel Kleen and Diesel Fuel Supplement and they can be used together in the fuel. If you live in areas where the temperatures can be severe in the winter months then you need to use our Diesel Fuel Supplement. Use the Diesel Kleen in the non-winter months. Also, just before winter sets in I would use the Diesel 911 to help take out the water/condensation in your fuel system. One-third of all fuel flow problems in winter is caused by water. Diesel 911 is the perfect product to take care of this problem. It will solubilize the water back into the fuel so the water will act as a component of the fuel. The water will be in solution and not in droplet form in your fuel. All fuel contains water. When used as directed it will prevent any fuel filter icing problems, it will not hurt or harm your pump or injectors and it is the only practical way to rid the system of water. The best way to rid the system of water is to pump it off the bottom, however most fuel systems are not made to easily access the system and pump off the water. Again, use the Diesel 911 when you think you have a water problem and it does not have to be used with every fill-up.





When we manufacture our products we take the requirements of the Original Engine Manufactures and the ASTM D975 Standard (the standard to which diesel fuel is manufactured) and the National Council of Weights and Measures (NCWM) into consideration. We want to be sure that our products meet their needs, which is in your best interest.



Be assured that if it runs on diesel fuel it will run better on Power Service Products. If you have any other questions or concerns please give me a call at (800)643 9089 or email me at -- email address removed --.



Best regards,



Brian Wilson



Technical Support



Power Service Products, Inc

 

[Kry226]

With all of that being said, has anyone had water problems using any of these additives? I use Stanadyne and to read the Power Service email, it tries to get one to think there's a big puddle of water in the bottom of our fuel tanks, not something I am totally convinced of. So, any problems out there? Icing, etc?



Now taking the email at face value, it seems it might not be a bad idea to run Stanadyne (for better lubricity) for a while, then run Diesel 911 to clean up any free water in the fuel system. It sounds like it would be hard to go wrong with such a regimen. Any takers or naysayers?

 

[mikepvg]

In the CO mtns I worry about gelling. I started using PS because its available from Wally World & inexpensive. However, I have now used PS for many years in a 94' & now my 04. 5 & have never had a gelling or h2o problem, therefore keep using it. Otherwise certainly no perf change or mpg change & do not really expect that from any additive... .

 

[mhenon]

That's a very convincing reply from the folks at Power Service. I've used most of the additives out there and have settled on Stanadyne PF. I might just try using PS 911 at the beginning of each year to flush out any pooled water in the tank.

Never had my WIF light come on or had anything drain from the filter that looked like water (I usually check). If Stanadyne is causing the water to fall out and pool in the tank... wonder how much it would take to start getting drawn up into the fuel lines. I mean it's not like we run our tanks dry before re-fueling. . so there could be a lot of water sitting down there. Hmmm! How can a guy find out??? Is there a flexable scope or something that can be run inside the tank to take a peek?

Anyway, no problems yet... but that Power Service rep got me thinking again.

Mike

 

[Cattletrkr]

If we had enough water to puddle in our tanks, we'd know it when the water turns to ice and the little suction filter/membrane freezes up. I thought I had this problem in my '01 last year. Took the tank off and completely cleaned it out. Couldn't find ANYTHING other than diesel in there. Didn't fix the problem. Turned out to be a bad lift pump that didn't like temps below 10F. So long story short, no, I've never had any water problems.



PowerService has a very interesting gaurantee. If you buy a case of their antigel, they gaurantee you will not gel up even down to -40 on reg. #2. I can't remember exactly what they'll cover if you do have problems. Maybe someone reading this has a bottle handy and can post it. I ain't gonna go outside and get a bottle, too cold already and I'm a wuss once I'm all warmed back up.

 

[tschwab]

WOW - Good article on PS & I stand correct. Powerservice 911 according to the e-mail is a fuel solubilizer which pulls the water into the fuel, kind of like an emulsifyer. Boy, the more I dig into this, the more complicated it becomes.

 

[DieselMinded]

Just filled up and put a whole bottle of redline in the tank FIRST TIME EVER ((TREATS 20 GAL FOR CLEAN UP DOSE)) I figgered 30 Gal in tank but Redline will treat alot more fuel then I had So Things should be safe I quit using stanadyne after I was schooled on how poor our fuel filter performs as a water seperator so Id rather have the water sneak threw in small portions then for the stanadyne to clump all the water together and send it to the motor all at once . Thats my reasoning if They come out with an after market water seperator that actually works for our trucks then I may go back to stanadyne till then RED LINE all the way. little clumps of water over a long period is better than a big clump of water all at once... ... . well ... . no water would be best... but we all know thats not happening.

DM



FROM ---HERE---REDLINE

BENEFIT SUMMARY

• Cleans injectors

• Cleans high-temperature deposits

• Lubricates injectors, pumps, and cylinder walls

• Reduces detonation

• Improves power and fuel efficiency

• Helps condition seals in the fuel system

• Provides easier cold starting

• Reduces operating costs

• Stabilizes fuel

• Prevents rust

• Disperses water in fuel

• Winterized version reduces fuel pour-point

• EPA registered for use in disel fuels

 

[Matt400]

Emulsifyer vs Demulsifyer

I didn't vote cuz I use neither although I have thought about Power Service only for its Cetane and availability. I did do some looking around on Cummins.com and found the below info posted there:

What is Cummins' position on the use of Water-Emulsified Diesel Fuel?

Subject: Cummins Position on the use of Water-Emulsified Diesel Fuel Background The water-emulsified diesel fuel includes the additive, a blending unit and the blended fuel. The fuel is made up of (2 to 3%) additive, needed as an emulsion enabler, corrosion inhibitor and lubricity improver, about 18% water, and about 80% #2 diesel. There may also be seasonal changes, such as the addition of methanol during the winter months. Testing of this blend has taken place with a variety of engines, including Cummins engines. There are multiple venders currently selling water-emulsified diesel to local route fleets for on and off highway use. Fuel Characteristics Pour point and cloud point are not stated in the literature but it is expected that they can be tailored to the requirements of specific locations. Flash point can vary from 174 degrees F in the summer to 104 degrees F in the winter with 5. 6% methanol (#2 diesel is 126 degrees F min. ). The lower winter fuel flash point of 104 degrees F can present fuel handling and storage concerns compared to #2 diesel fuel. Note that Cummins does not allow any use of alcohol in diesel fuel due to concern of fire hazard. Otherwise, the fuel can be handled, stored and dispensed in a similar manner to diesel fuel. Emissions Emissions results with water-emulsified diesel fuel show a reduction in particulates of 25-60%, a reduction of NOx from 8-30% and Hydrocarbon (HC) by 25%. Carbon Monoxide (CO) tends to increase by 5%. This type of fuel is verified by EPA and some state agencies as an emissions reduction technology. Cummins does not certify engines based on this fuel. Cummins does not guarantee any emissions benefits should this fuel be used. Performance and Durability Issues Due to the lower energy content (~80% of #2 diesel), at least a 15% power reduction is to be expected, together with a 15% increase in fuel usage for the same duty cycle. The reduced energy content may also require an idle governor change to prevent stalling. In terms of fuel system durability, the water-emulsified diesel fuel has passed the 500 hr Stanadyne bench test without any lubricity impact compared to diesel, and has also passed the Cummins L10 injector deposits test. Customer experience is mixed with water-emulsified diesel fuel. Some customers operating engines with water-emulsified diesel fuel report no issues after extensive operation. Others, including customers with current and older model midrange and heavy duty Cummins engines, report fuel system failures at low mileage/hours. Analysis to date confirms failures of fuel system components including injectors on heavy duty Cummins engines and abnormally worn governors, pistons, diaphragms, and plungers on Bosch and Cummins midrange fuel injection pumps and injectors. Fuel System Vehicle Issues and Storage It should be noted that since water is in an emulsified state with diesel fuel, the conductivity sensors used to detect water in fuel such as the one offered by Fleetguard, will not function. The use instructions of some vendors of water-emulsified diesel fuel specify the removal of the fuel water separator, which violates Cummins installation requirements. Cummins has seen evidence of water separation from the emulsified fuel. Free and emulsified water inevitably damages fuel system components without the protection of the water separator, which would not be compensated under Cummins material or workmanship warranty. The use of a surfactant in the emulsifier has the potential to strip the fuel tank and lines of existing deposits causing fuel filter plugging. Fuel filters should be monitored closely during initial use. The fuel cannot remain static for more than a month in storage or vehicle tanks. Engines operating on this type of fuel need to be operated at least 15 minutes every 30 days and the storage tanks need circulation pumps for daily or weekly agitation. Failures resulting from storage issues have been reported in applications such as standby gen-sets. Warranty and the use of water-emulsified diesel in Cummins Engines Cummins neither approves nor disapproves of the use of water-emulsified diesel fuel. The use of water-emulsified diesel fuel or any other certified fuel additive does not void the Cummins material and workmanship warranty. However, failures determined by Cummins to be caused by water-emulsified diesel fuel or other fuel additives are NOT covered under Cummins engine warranty. Some fuel suppliers provide a comprehensive warranty for fuel system failures caused by water-emulsified diesel fuel and other fuel additives. Customers are encouraged to contact their fuel supplier to determine their warranty provisions for fuel related failures

 

[Fireman]

Yes, I have been having a problem with water in my fuel lately. Untill a couple of weeks ago I had never found any water in my fuel when draining the filter cannaster, now I'm getting quiet a bit between fill-ups. I have become convinced that I have picked up alot of water from somewhere, so I was happy to see this thread and would like to thank D Baker for sharing his corespondence with Power Service with us. I'll be trying their Diesel 911 right away.



Fireman