Is it time to rebuild?

[HGDMARTN]

I bought a Case 450B track loader that has been sitting 5-7 years and I bought it non-running knowing the engine was not believed to be strong when it was parked. I have put in fresh fuel, changed filters, cleaned air intake, and shot with either and it does not want to start or even fire. It has the 207 cu inch engine. I wonder how to tell if it does not have enough compression to fire. I can turn the engine over with the fan. Not easy, but it will turn over. Gets harder with a little heat from cranking. Is this a good sign that engine is too tired to fire?

Local NAPA store says they will rebuild for about $500 labor. That includes going through the head and polishing the crank. Couple that with $850 for a kit and that seems pretty good, doesn't it? How about the injector pump. It leaks a little around the throttle lever shaft. If I take it off to get repaired, how much is it to get it back in time? I have never timed a diesel. I am sure there are those here that would walk me through it like the many other problems you all have walked me through.

Yeah, this may no be the best purchase of my life. But, I do not have a whole lot in it, and I love to tinker. I just do not have a whole lot of training.



Thanks in advance for the help.

David in SC

 

[JFinke]

Depending on what pump it has it may be real easy to time. If it has a timing window that you can take off you just need to get it on tdc and then line the mark up in the timing window. Once the pump mark lines up you can read the degree's on the flywheel or dampner and record it. Once the pump is done you just put it back where it was. You should be able to have the pump tested for around $50. 00 and if it's bad you should be able to have it rebuilt or get a reman from case for about $800. 00. The thing should at least try to fire on either if it will turn over. Try spraying some fogging oil for storage of 2 strokes in while cranking to make a better seal on the rings. I would guess if you can't get it to fire on either it has a cam timing or valve train problem, assuming that it is able to get air in the intake and out the exhaust. You can check the compressiion if you get the propper adapter. It will go in the injector bore. If you hold your hand over the intake while cranking it should have suction and pressure out the exhaust if all is well. Jake

 

[HGDMARTN]

Thanks Jake for the info. I will check the pump today. Maybe the window you refer to is the little plate that has 2 small screws securing it to the pump body?

I have checked with Case dealer and they can sell a reman pump for $900, just like you said. But, I hate to replace if not needed. They will also send it to their rebuilder to test and fix only the leak if that is all that is wrong.

As for the motor. I have no reason to suspect that it has anything out of time. Was parked 5-7 years ago in running condition, but tired. Maybe I am not holding my mouth right. I know one of the injector return lines is leaking bad. The brass nut is cracked. I will repair this weekend. But, I assume it should still fire on ether even with this leak. ?

The exhaust definitely has pressure as puffs of smoke exit as I try to crank. The intake, well I do not know. I can hear it gasping as I rotate with the fan, but it does not appear to be sucking in the ether like I would think it would while cranking. I will try the fogging oil trick tonight. Thanks for the advice.



Thanks alot for the advice. I will tinker more tonight, weather permitting.



Thanks,

David

 

[JFinke]

Yes, the timing window will have two small screws and be on the pump body. There is just a little rubber gasket between it and the pump. If you are getting smoke it is getting fuel. Either won't smoke. How much either have you given it? I hate to tell you to give it more but if it has'nt locked up while cranking you can try a bigger shot. Some of the older case and john deeres need 4-5 seconds minimum. Does it have a block heater. Do you have any way to tow it. If it will smoke it should fire, as it has compression to start the process. How cold is it there? You did change the fuel and fuel filter, rotten diesel isn't good for much. Good luck. Jake

 

[HGDMARTN]

Jake, thanks again for more info. I have been sort of petting the ether. About 2 seconds at a time. I may try more, but I want to try the fogging first to lube the sleeves a little. It does not have a heater or glow plugs. I did change both fuel filters and put in fresh fuel. No real way to tow as I only have a Bobcat and me. I will try a bigger battery this weekend. It is supposed to get into the mid 60's; that may help. Plus, gonna fix that fuel return line leak.

I will let you know how I come out.



Keep the good advice coming.



Thanks alot.

David in snowy SC

 

[A Johnson]

If it won't fire on ether now way no how, pull the valve cover and watch to see if the valve train is moving.



I overhauled a little International 3 banger about a year ago that would not fire on ether, it had a blown gasket between 1 and 2 and #3 was worn out from dust so bad nothing would fire.



This was running when he parked it, but very low power, and never started again until it had 3 fresh cylinder kits. Hope yours isn't this bad.



A Johnson

 

[HGDMARTN]

Well, I wasted about 2 full cans of ether on her yesterday and still no fire. She almost sounded like she was going to fire a couple of times, but no luck. I tried the fogging oil trick. I fixed the fuel leak. The valve train appears to be moving as it is supposed to. I am running out of ideas.

I did note that it does not appear to be getting fuel and I need to check that out. I know it gets it back through the return line because I still have some seepage out of several return line T's. And pressure builds because they bubble when and for a while after cranking. But, when I cracked and even completely opened the line to 2 injectors, I got no fuel? Even while cranking. HMMM. Maybe I have an injector pump problem. But, shouldn't it still fire on ether even if not getting fuel?



Any other suggestions before I get out the tools and start tearing it down?





Thanks in advance.

David in SC

 

[JFinke]

Did you try bleeding the line to the pump, then crack all 4 injector lines to get fuel out each of them. It sounds like you are gonna have to send the pump in and do the motor. If you get the propper adapter you can check the compression by removing injecters. If it tests ok have the pump and injectors tested also. Where are you spraying the either. If it is going through the air filter it may not fire on it. If you take the hose off the intake and spray some WD-40 it should try to fire and may fire if it's in decent shape and warm out. Just a constant stream, but have a piece of meatal or 3/4" plywood that will cover the intake opening if it does fire, as you may have so much built up fuel that it wants to run away for a little while. Jake

 

[HGDMARTN]

Jake,

Thanks again for the input. I have been spraying the ether and fogging oil directly into the intake with the hose off. I quit tinkering with it early today after I killed my Bobcat battery and my jump starter. Still nothing, but I still am not convinced that it is getting fuel like it should be either.

I moved on and started fooling with other areas needing attention. I busted apart one track and got the adjuster out, broke 3 bolts that I will have to drill, bla, bla, bla.

What are your thoughts on just re-sleeving and putting in new pistons? I really hate to try to pull that engine out. These things are hard to do when it is just me. I hear re-sleeving can be done fairly easily, maybe a 2-3 day project. Engine kit is about $850. That would leave me enough in my bugdet to pull the injector pump off and have the leak repaired and maybe rebuilt.



Any thoughts?



Thanks,

David

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Does the injection have an electric wire going to it? Or does it have a pull knob on the dash to shut the fuel off? If it has the knob make sure that the linkage (probably a cable) is working and the the shut off lever on the injection pump is all the way to the stop in the direction the knob is pushing it. If your injection pump has the electrical wire going into it make sure it has current when the key is in the "start" and "run" positions. If not, run a wire from the positive battery terminal while cranking it over. If these fixes do not work and there is still no fuel coming from a cracked open injection line then make sure fuel is getting to the injection pump by cracking the input line from the fuel filter. Because you can turn the engine over with the fan I would guess that compression is on the low side which will make starting even that much harder so make sure the engine is turning over real fast. By the way, while checking the pump timing through the window, make sure the pump is turning when the engine is cranking.



Trent

 

[JFinke]

If you are going to go as far as putting in new sleaves you should take the extra time, hassel, money and pull it out so you can get new cam bearings, rear main seal, ect. If you save $500 and it only lasts half as long you cost yourself more money and time in the long run. I assume either way that you plan to have the head done, rods rebuilt, main bearings, and check injectors and oil pump. The pump should be tested and the leak fixed. A bad pump or injector can ruin your new engine. I would also reccomend you have the radiator cleaned while it's all apart. The money spent checking a part that turns out to be good is just cheap piece of mind, and the part not tested that fails may take out the entire engine, including castings. If it would have ran by tinkering all you would've been out if it blew was a worn out engine, after you spend $850 and something that should have been replaced ruins the whole thing you wasted the $850 and have to come up with more $$$ to buy another core engine to rebuild.



I did a head gasket on an IH DT466 last winter and wanted to roll a new set of bearings in. The customer said he was retiring in the fall and it would be fine (even though it had antifreeze in the oil and 7700 Hrs). So I did what he wanted. Well he got 92 Hrs and spun a rod and main bearing, threw the rod out the block, and spent another $11000. 00 with me for a savings of about $1000. 00 that would have likely let the engine run another 2000+ Hrs before a major.

 

[HGDMARTN]

Got it running

Thanks to all of you that offered advice on getting this old tired machine to run. I finally got it running. I put in 4 new injectors and she fired right up, with a snort of ether, of course. The engine actually runs fairly good, or seems to. Sputters just a small amuont and burns a small amount of oil, but I expect that. At this time, I do not plan to rebuild it as I have some work that I need to get done. I still have about a month's worth of fixing the other things that need attention.



Thanks again for your help.



David in SC