Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting LONG RANGE ACCURACY....THANKS GregH

[GHarman]

Yep, This is a fun discussion. Yet we are talking, as much, about each others needs, as much as the rifle's capabilities. But, the rifle MUST have better than MOA capability for this scenerio. There are places in Colorado where Elk are on your doorstep and a large bore revolver would work just fine as a tool to dispatch one of these big meat bags. My Dads . 300 Savage, does this quite well with iron sights. Then there are places where the Elk are 1/4 mile or more away, across open wheat fields and will run into the next county at the first quiver of the locoweed. Dont fergit, the landowners rules that there will be no gutpiles in the wheat! Then there are the neighbors that hate hunters. The requirement is that the elk drops in its footprints. No chasing blood trails. One shot, one kill, OOOHHHHAAAAAA. The target is not the elk, but a spot on the elk that is the conduit for all the nerve impulses that drive those huge and tasty muscles. That target is, ideally, at the base of the ear. It does extend down the neck but it is only about 3" wide. I dont trophy hunt so there is no issue here, nor do I wish to wound and not recover an animal. Practice with precise bullet placement and range estimation is crutial to a successful outcome.

I use a head and neck sillouette target and the stepped crosshair on a 4. 5X14 Leupold scope to fine tune my capabilities. The rifle I assembled for this purpose is a heavy barrelled affair using a blueprinted Remington-700 Magnum Action, H-S precision barrel and stock. The cartridge is the old . 30-338 with a tight neck. Ammo is loaded using hand dies. Necks are turned for concentricity, primer pockets are cut flat and square and the flash holes are chamfered. Am I picky? YEP! If I do my part, this combination can take an alert Cow Elk out to 600 yards. The longest shot, for me is 500 yards(Witnessed). ( Lets not mention varmint rifles and the long range possibilities, thereOo. :-laf. )

Personally, Accuracy and precision, in a rifle is the epitome of the science. Souped up diesel trucks are cool, but 5 shots in 1 1/2" at 1000 yards makes me drool:-lafOo. . GregH

 

[Dl5treez]

Yep, This is a fun discussion. Yet we are talking, as much, about each others needs, as much as the rifle's capabilities. But, the rifle MUST have better than MOA capability for this scenerio. There are places in Colorado where Elk are on your doorstep and a large bore revolver would work just fine as a tool to dispatch one of these big meat bags. My Dads . 300 Savage, does this quite well with iron sights. Then there are places where the Elk are 1/4 mile or more away, across open wheat fields and will run into the next county at the first quiver of the locoweed. Dont fergit, the landowners rules that there will be no gutpiles in the wheat! Then there are the neighbors that hate hunters. The requirement is that the elk drops in its footprints. No chasing blood trails. One shot, one kill, OOOHHHHAAAAAA. The target is not the elk, but a spot on the elk that is the conduit for all the nerve impulses that drive those huge and tasty muscles. That target is, ideally, at the base of the ear. It does extend down the neck but it is only about 3" wide. I dont trophy hunt so there is no issue here, nor do I wish to wound and not recover an animal. Practice with precise bullet placement and range estimation is crutial to a successful outcome.

I use a head and neck sillouette target and the stepped crosshair on a 4. 5X14 Leupold scope to fine tune my capabilities. The rifle I assembled for this purpose is a heavy barrelled affair using a blueprinted Remington-700 Magnum Action, H-S precision barrel and stock. The cartridge is the old . 30-338 with a tight neck. Ammo is loaded using hand dies. Necks are turned for concentricity, primer pockets are cut flat and square and the flash holes are chamfered. Am I picky? YEP! If I do my part, this combination can take an alert Cow Elk out to 600 yards. The longest shot, for me is 500 yards(Witnessed). ( Lets not mention varmint rifles and the long range possibilities, thereOo. :-laf. )

Personally, Accuracy and precision, in a rifle is the epitome of the science. Souped up diesel trucks are cool, but 5 shots in 1 1/2" at 1000 yards makes me drool:-lafOo. . GregH

*drool* 30-338... ... *drool* Oo.



I don't reload, and probably shouldn't as I could see it becoming an addictive hobby. :-laf



Do you have 9 grand in that rifle? Didn't think so.

 

[GHarman]

*drool* 30-338... ... *drool* Oo.



I don't reload, and probably shouldn't as I could see it becoming an addictive hobby. :-laf



Do you have 9 grand in that rifle? Didn't think so.

Nope, Just the cost of the parts. The lathe work and fitting is all done in my shop. Even then, I am using a used Remington action and trigger. After market parts are the stock, barrel and recoil lug. There is some tooling that I had to purchase, like a reamer, pilot bushings, and a full profile carbide insert threading tool. I used to grind my own threading tools out of REX-95 tool steel. This late in life, I cant see that close and the REX-95 doesnt cut clean treads in 416 Stainless Steel. That is the predominant material used for match grade rifle barrels. The receiver is the expensive part on custom rifles.

I estimate my cost to be about $800 for parts, including the scope(1993 prices). The best thing is; I get to do the work:-lafOo.

The . 308 has hit me a little higher as the recent costs are higher for components and I do not have a scope or mounts, sling swivels, butt pad or a quality trigger as yet. The bedding on this one has taken alot longer as I am using a new process that involves Titanium DevconOo. The time saver is using fiberglass stocks. It takes me forever to inlet a wood stock. I'm to picky for a semi-inlet. After all that inletting, a wood stock will not hold its bedding due to humidity issues and I dont like the plywood offerings.

As far as the cartridge is concerned, a . 300WSM would do the same job and you dont need to make brass from another cartridge case. A very time consuming process. Talk about an addicting hobby. I'm right in the middle of it. 'Course it is tempered by family obligations and a hopefully mature prioritization process. Thanks for the kind comments. GregH

 

[GHarman]

There are more far powerful cartridges out there. The hand loads I use are unprintable as they are very H O T! (high pressure). So I dont shoot this rifle a whole lot just to retain barrel life. It presently has about 800 Rounds through the barrel (since 1993). I imagine that it will need a new tube by 1200 rounds. Heres a couple of pictures. The . 30-338 in the foreground(its pretty ugly), my BIL at the spotting scope and a 300 yard group showing the midrange trajectory (the coin is a quarter). The bottom bullseye was the aiming point. Knowledge of trajectory is part of this exercise. Pictures taken 1 Sept. 2007. GregH

 

[GHarman]

Elk sillouette

Heres the target I use to estimate range. An average Elk is 24" from the tip of its nose to the back of its head. More than enough room for range estimation errors within 600 yards. Practice is done at altitude, so what I am practicing is equal to the application. No computer required for this. GregH

 

[GHarman]

Zero ;2 shots

500 Yard zero with 2 shots in center point of aim/point of impact. Picture two with measuremnent. GregH

 

[Dl5treez]

Very cool... nice shooting!

 

[GHarman]

Sharing interests

This may have hijacked the thread? I hope you will forgive me. I dont often share my other interests except with folks I know. I love this hobby and hope you enjoy the pictures and my adventures. I make no claims to be in the league with Mr. Jarrett! GregH

 

[M1AM14SPUR]

This is making me as happy as Oprah at an all you can eat buffet hearing about all these high powered boom sticks!

One cool thing about being in the military is some of the cool things I got to shoot over the years... or blow up.

One platoon I was in, we came up with the motto-

There is no problem in the world that couldn't be solved with a suitable application of high explosives. That is something to jump about!Oo.

 

[M1AM14SPUR]

You made a good post, no monsters here!!

 

[GHarman]

M1AM14SPUR, Thanks for your service. GregH

 

[Dl5treez]

Your pictures are deserving of their own thread... let's keep it going!!!

 

[TRLRTRSH]

GHarman, excellent work, it's satisfying to ones soul when a good plan comes together, putting rounds down range where you KNOW they will have maximum impact is great. Out west in some places elk shots can be at extreme ranges, in WA we would at times have to shoot across small canyons at 500 to 600 yards. Few can honestly say they have verifiable animals at 500 yards with one shot My caliber was/is the 300 WinMag with hand loads.

Again Good shooting.



P. S.

(Now try this, Elk with a 54 cal black powder, that will really test your mettle)

 

[GHarman]

Building an accurate rifle is not difficult, just time consuming. With basic machinist skills, some specialized tooling, choice aftermarket parts; like barrel, trigger, stock, scopes and mounts. You can do the same. Remember that the laws of physics are being tweeked into compliance. You are building, first of all, a tuning fork! A rifle is, in the language of physics, a periodic wave. You can have the most accurate barrel on the planet, BUT, if the bullet does not exit the muzzle at the same point in space, each time you fire it. You have a random pattern, on target, not a group. In Machinegun parleyence, that is called the "cone of dispersion". I'll write more later. GregH

 

[AABEN]

Most rifle will out shoot the man that owns them!!! But the man that shoots a bunch will be the best practice and practice makes a good shooter

 

[GHarman]

blackbear, You are right about the practice! However, you can be as good as your rifle, but never better. If you have a rifle that will only shoot 4 MOA at its best, That will be your best. Throw in, out of position, adrenaline rush, winded after running for that perfect shot and your 4 MOA rifle becomes a 20 MOA rifle, plus or minus:-laf. It all depends on YOUR situation and needs. Across the barnyard is alot different than mountainside to mountainside, at high altitude. The above throwins are still applicable but hopefully you have practiced, are in good shape, dont get buck fever and you got a steady rest. The chances of hitting a Big Horn Sheep at 500 yards with a 4 MOA rifle is still pretty slim. This is just an example. GregH

 

[GHarman]

GHarman, excellent work, it's satisfying to ones soul when a good plan comes together, putting rounds down range where you KNOW they will have maximum impact is great. Out west in some places elk shots can be at extreme ranges, in WA we would at times have to shoot across small canyons at 500 to 600 yards. Few can honestly say they have verifiable animals at 500 yards with one shot My caliber was/is the 300 WinMag with hand loads.

Again Good shooting.



P. S.

(Now try this, Elk with a 54 cal black powder, that will really test your mettle)

The . 300 Winchester Magnum is a fine cartridge and quite a performer at long range. It is also used by the U. S. Army as a sniper round and the U. S. Army Marksmanship Unit competes with this round at 1000 yards, the last I heard.

As far as front end stuffers, Ive burnt many pounds of black powder. I prefer a . 58 Rifle Musket for big game and a round ball rifle for small game and varmints. I have also shot BPCR. I really like single shot, falling block rifles. The artistry and workmanship on some of these fine old rifles is awe inspiring. GregH

 

[GHarman]

Did you know a round receiver is not necessarily round? The Receiver on the . 30-338 is . 009"TIR, out of round. I had to scrape in the aluminum chassis in the H-S stock to allow the Remington Receiver to mate correctly, then I skim coated the thing with bedding compound.

Careful bedding is necessary to achieve the harmonics required to allow the muzzle to be in the same point is space each time a bullet exits the muzzle.

There are several ways to prove this statement. I had a Ruger #3, many years ago that I rebarreled to 6X47MM. It would not shoot tight groups. There are bedding methods that can be used on the #1's and #3's to help that issue. However, all I did was rest the last 4" of the barrel on a sandbag, with the muzzle clearing the bag and shot a group. The bag acted as a vibration damper and all the shots were in a ragged hole, the size of a dime at 100 yards. It definitely changed the scope adjustment to get zeroed, but the dampening effect proved the necessity of having the muzzle in the same point in space , each time a bullet exited.

A bolt rifle can be tested by shimming the action at the tang screws and retightening the screws, allowing the barrel to float free of the forend and free of the stock at the receiver rails. Shoot it like this with the temporary shims and also try the muzzle rest method(it will change the zero a huge amount. ) Remember to use a consistant shooting method while testing. If you remove the rear tang screw, and the receiver tang jumps up away from the stock, the stock has a high spot at the rails and will place torque on the receiver that is not conducive to accuracy. That high spot needs to be removed. Just some random meanderings, Folks!:-laf GregH

 

[M1AM14SPUR]

If I remember right the Army is using a 338 Lupa for the 1000 yd matches now.

Talking about sigle shot rolling block rifles, I would love a Shilo Sharps in the 45-120 like on the Quigley Down Under Movie! That rifle makes me feel all funny!!

 

[GHarman]

M1AM14SPUR, There are alot of changes going on. The . 338 Lapua was designed by the U. S for that purpose, many years ago. The round was picked up and standardized with CIP, by Lapua, in Finland. There was no interest by the U. S. until the Brits, Canadians and Euro military started using it. However, The . 408 Cheytac, . 375 Cheytac and . 416 Barrett will out shoot the . 338 Lapua and the . 50 BMG for accuracy and range. The distances fired require a ballistic computer to calculate the earths rotation, atmospheric pressure, etc. A Military channel program, recently, demonstrated multiple consecutive hits on a human sillouette at 1. 5 miles with the . 408 rig. I do not know if there is an official adaption process, in the works for these other rifles. Shooting 1000 yards with a . 338 Lapua is like shooting 600 yards with a . 308:-laf. GregH



PS, The Shiloh and C. Sharps Arms Companies are building some really fine 1874'S. I didn't get nicknamed "Side Hammer" fer nothing.