Motor Oil Bickering

[Don M]

LSMITH, So far we have all been very nice to one another and are presenting our cases to one another in a friendly manner.

I think if a topic can be discussed in this tone we will all learna bit and not flame the heck out of each other.



Bad340fish,



Stop cussing



Sled Puller,

Out of topic here, but why did you change yuor handle from MGM to Sled Puller?



Gary, your killin me!



Im just having fun here too. No hard feelings or nothin'



Don~

 

[Don M]

The water was hardly evident in this case at . 11 percent . You would not be able to see it in the oil on the stick in this case. But it was enough to degrade the oil way past acceptable limits. The oil sheared way out of its viscosity range and was acting like a single weight oil at this point. Not good.



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

The bypass oil filter I am using removes water. Therefore this is not an issue. I analyze my oil every 7500 miles, so running a long time without detecting a problem is not an issue.



Next... .....



LSmith,

I see nothing wrong with a constructive debate. There has not been any mudslinging, simply an adult discussion between people with opposing points of view. There can be things learned from such debates, some people enjoy taking part in them, and others may simply enjoy things from the sidelines. No harm done.

 

[Sled Puller]

I got tired of MGM, just like everybody else did. Besides, he ain't mean enough.



I forgot the By-Pass picked up water, another good selling point. I', learning a lot from your threads Don.



Which also brings up anti-freeze.



Do you know there is an Anti-freeze on the market that won't take your bearings out if you blow a headgasket?



Wanna guess who makes it?

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Sled Puller





Some guys still think the rings need broke in, but that is old news.



All of the above, MHO

Sled Puller or anyone else that might know the answer. I was reading in one of the TDR mag's about an older CTD that the owner said used 1 qt. of oil every 800 miles. He bought it used with 75K miles on it. He then used it hard and put synthetic oil in it and stated that it now just used 1 qt. every 1200 miles. He also said he did not have "much" of a blow by problem when running at 2100 rpm. (indicating that he had a blow by problem before) The editor stated that it sounded like the previous owner did not break it in hard enough so the rings did not seat well, but indicated that is not as big of a concern with the newer CTD's. If this is true what did they change in the newer CTD's so they break in the rings without hard pulling? Also I have used Mobil 1 in most of my gas vehicles and alway noticed that they used less oil with synthetic. Is that a benefit of synthetic? Sorry if all of this is old news to everyone but if anyone could add something to this I would be interested in learning.

Thanks

 

[Don M]

It appears the oil was not dead from the low amount of water in it at all the water was coming from the cylinders.



Here is another opinion of the oil from Terry Dyson, a tribologist.

"The real issue here is the oil is toasted,out of grade into 40w(consistant problem with this product). That is bad spec wise, but good in that the viscosity is keeping the wear down. You have very little TBN left to fight acidity,thus the water creeping up and high nitration indicating degraded cylinder seal. It's a cycle that can be broken by more frequent oil or filter changes,especially when you romp on it racing. Your egr is not the problem you are just overheating and over extending this product. You might experiment with other less expensive products that have heat reducing additives in a group2 base or syn blend and get lower wear and lower the head temps reducing nox. Trade off is you may have to change the oil more often.

In defense of Amsoil 0w-30 it is out of grade,depleted TBN,allowing blowby, and not able to quell the condensation, but still keeps soldiering on keeping your wear down with not alot chemically left to fight with. "



Much longer on the oil and it would not have been able to do this.

This a Ford Taurus as i mentioned earlier and the oil did have about 17K on it. The Amsoil 0w/30 is designed for 35,000 mile drain intervals and the Oil Analyzers have missed the mark with this analysis.

They were incorrect in their statement and the EGR was found to be working properly. The oil just did not hold up well. Im a bit concerned that the Oil Analyzers outfit did not tell the guy the oil was not the best one for him or to stop doing extended drains. Of course if they did, they would no longer be analyzing his oil would they?



The evidence mounts on extended drains and why the OEMs just have not bought into them yet.



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

I switched to 5w-30 synthetic at about 30,000miles. It used a gallon every 5000 miles. At 80,000, it was using NONE.



Then, somebody dropped a tiny pick down an injector hole, smashed the piston, bent the valves, and it has not been right since. It is being corrected now.



Anyway, yes, that is a benefit of synthetics, they don't burn up and go into the atmosphere.





Don,

I know of a guy with a V-10 that ran 0W-30 and kept coming up with water in his samples. They caught it right away. Turned out he only drove a mile and a half to work, and never got the condensation out. Extended drains were not for him.

Qualify the customer/vehicle.



I would need more information befoe I can speculate brashly like you did about Oil Analyzers.



Did you get Amsoils opinions on this?

That is sort of like calling BD if you have a DTT problem, know what I mean?

 

[Don M]

This is another problem with oil analysis again. The lab may have really muffed this report and recommendation to this fella.

We are trusting the testing labs and here is some evidence that they are wrong or may be wrong. I have only read a few oil analysis reports in my life and my qualifications to do so are not there. Even so, I can see that a mistake was made and the oil was toasted out of spec.

Generally when I need a problem solved I turn to professionals.

Tax problems I use a CPA. Legal issues I use an attorney.

Tribologist are the ones to turn to for oil troubles or advice.

People turn to me for calculating clean agent amounts for data rooms holding millions of dollars worth of computers or space and nuclear facilties. Most of us rely daily on professional opinions to get stuff done. A Tribologist was asked what he thought about the analysis and he stated the oil was toasted.

Therefor I see the value in his read of it. He does not sell oil to anyone. He actually analyzes oil for a living at the present time.

He recommends the guy stop extended drains and get the stuff changed more often.



As I stated above I have little oil analysis experience , but I have learned that water from condensation is handled by the additive package for the most part. I also see that a guy was using an oil of the wrong viscosity for his truck. Why is he doing this? Was he told like jsimpson was to do it? Did you tell him this? Just wondering why two of the handful of guys we have talked about were both using or were told to use an oil of the wrong viscosity.



Oh, Im guessing he did not have a by-pass filter that removed water either. Could he not just use a by-pass filter and have his problem solved?



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

See Don?



There you go again, working yourself up into a frenzy.



Oh, I thought that guy had a Taurus, not a truck.

 

[Extreme1]

 

[PLaFrombois]

I don't want to cause any problems on this site or any other, but I would like to share some information about Amsoil and becoming API Certified.

1. ) It costs money to have your oil sent in to become API certified. Each time an additive, or property of said oil is changed the manufacture has to send in a sample along with a good sized check to be recertified.

2. ) The formula that was used has to be sent along with the sample so it can be reproduced and verified that it meets said requirements from API. This formula has to be voluntary if the manufacture wishes to become API Certified. Thus it is available for all other manufactures to view and try to recreate.

This is why Amsoil doesn't want to play that game called being API Certified. Sorry about the length, and location of this statement.

Paul

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by LSMITH

... I would like to point out that the guys that seem to have the most trouble getting along are all men that are quite firm in their convictions,...

Hey! I ain't never been convicted in my life! Them's fightin' words where I was born!



Don, Gene: neither of you is going to win the argument. Neither of you is going to convince the other. Or sway the other.



Give it up. Both of you. Both of you are right. And both of you are wrong.



Agree to disagree and drop it like the hot potato it is.



Fest3er

 

[rrausch]

By the way Gene, nothing personal, but in the last thread you referred to Don's supporters as being Liberals. Not true here! I certainly have applauded Don's attempts at seeking veracity. But I am a Gun-Totin', Bush-Votin', Tractor-Drivin', Clinton-Hatin', Rush-Listenin', Jesus-Praisin' Ex-U. S. Army Sgt. Hardly a Liberal!----although I do confess... 25 years ago I did vote Democratic.



I have the heart of a Liberal though... I DO! I keep it in a jar under my desk!

 

[fj40charles]

Can someone tell me why Amsoil does not pay to get their engine oil certified? It seems with the relatively high price for their oil they should be able to get API certification. Also, would this certification result in more sales to fleet and construction companies?



Thanks,

Charles

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Sled Puller

I switched to 5w-30 synthetic at about 30,000miles. It used a gallon every 5000 miles. At 80,000, it was using NONE.

WOW!!! Is this common for some CTD's to use 4 qt. s of oil every 5000 miles? Was this more common with the older CTD's then the new ones?



I've been using about 1 qt. every 5000 miles, but it looks like some of it is going out the blow by tube when I get on the highway with my 4. 10 axle and drive above 2100 rpm's for a couple of hours. Do you think synthetic will help eliminate this issue?



Thanks for the reply Gene.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by PLaFrombois

I don't want to cause any problems on this site or any other, but I would like to share some information about Amsoil and becoming API Certified.

1. ) It costs money to have your oil sent in to become API certified. Each time an additive, or property of said oil is changed the manufacture has to send in a sample along with a good sized check to be recertified.

2. ) The formula that was used has to be sent along with the sample so it can be reproduced and verified that it meets said requirements from API. This formula has to be voluntary if the manufacture wishes to become API Certified. Thus it is available for all other manufactures to view and try to recreate.

This is why Amsoil doesn't want to play that game called being API Certified. Sorry about the length, and location of this statement.

Paul

On number one you are correct. It does cost money to become certified. The money goes to the API to help pay for the auditing process to make sure the oil companies who are licensed are in compliance with the formulas they are on record as mixing. Another part of the money goes to environmental and safety issues concerning the transport of said oil. In other words there are mandatory transportation rules for oil in bulk such as drums to insure they dont get spilled or damage stuff or people. Bulk oil mixing and formulation is an issue as well.



On number two, the API has a chart in place as to how much and what kinds of replacements are allowed. There are literally thousands of oil formulation changes that could be done and the oil would not need to be re-certified. The changes are verified through engine testing and sound engineering practices. On your point about other manufacturers being able to copy Amsoils formulation I say that any competent lab can crack the formula down to to the gnats rear if they wanted to. It would be extremely easy to do this and the cost is surprisingly low. The API certification is not "game" as you call it. It is a quality assurance program that is in place to verify oil quality.

As an example on being able to change formulations there is a good guideline published by the API on the interchangability of all basestocks for marketers. Groups 1 through 5 are all covered. I recently read a paper from Amsoil stating that the snythetic base stocks were not allowed to be changed. This is either old material or Amsoil is not aware of the interchangability of oil basestocks.



Here is a link to the API site that shows the interchangability procedures available. They give at least 12 examples as a quick summary of how flexible the program is.



Your points above are old and out of date.



http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/1509apxE012002.pdf



Don~

 

[Don M]

Big Toy,



Some oils have proven to be better at keeping the amount of oil lost between oil changes down. Many of them are synthetics. Some are Dinos. If you dont want to spend the extra bucks on synthetics you might try another dino first and see what happens. Delo comes to mind because it is a super high grade hydro-finished oil base stock. It has proven to be better than synthetics in certain wear areas as well. These new hydro dino oils are going to give the fully synthetic oils a run for their money real soon.



If the Delo does not stop the troubles you could try an expensive synthetic. Gene has stated as well as others that Amsoil has lowered oil use. I have never seen a truck use 4 quarts of oil in a 5000 mile period and then suddenly stop after using a synthetic though. Maybe the engine was not broken-in good and the ring seal was less than perfect. Of course if your oil seals are marginal like mine were (yeah right) then the leaking could begin and the oil will be lost anyway. Hopefully your selas are not marginal Since you drain your oil at 5000 mile intervals the make-up quart between oil changes would be cheaper in the long run than filling the pan with synthetics.



Don~

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Don M

Big Toy,



Some oils have proven to be better at keeping the amount of oil lost between oil changes down. Many of them are synthetics. Some are Dinos. If you dont want to spend the extra bucks on synthetics you might try another dino first and see what happens. Delo comes to mind because it is a super high grade hydro-finished oil base stock. It has proven to be better than synthetics in certain wear areas as well. These new hydro dino oils are going to give the fully synthetic oils a run for their money real soon.



If the Delo does not stop the troubles you could try an expensive synthetic. Gene has stated as well as others that Amsoil has lowered oil use. I have never seen a truck use 4 quarts of oil in a 5000 mile period and then suddenly stop after using a synthetic though. Maybe the engine was not broken-in good and the ring seal was less than perfect. Of course if your oil seals are marginal like mine were (yeah right) then the leaking could begin and the oil will be lost anyway. Hopefully your selas are not marginal Since you drain your oil at 5000 mile intervals the make-up quart between oil changes would be cheaper in the long run than filling the pan with synthetics.



Don~

Don thanks for the reply, I will keep an eye on it and if it gets worse I will try the other oils. I will also keep an eye on the seals and if they are the problem I will let the warranty take care of the fix. When I bought my truck (used) it was not ever used as a puller, except by the dealer to haul some cars back from another couple of dealers. My rings may not have been fully seated, I now have 40K miles on my baby and I only use it as a daily driver. I guess part of the problem is when you buy (used) you never "really" know how the truck was cared for.

Thanks

Denny

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Big Toy





WOW!!! Is this common for some CTD's to use 4 qt. s of oil every 5000 miles? Was this more common with the older CTD's then the new ones?



I've been using about 1 qt. every 5000 miles, but it looks like some of it is going out the blow by tube when I get on the highway with my 4. 10 axle and drive above 2100 rpm's for a couple of hours. Do you think synthetic will help eliminate this issue?



Thanks for the reply Gene.

Big Toy,

I too was shocked at the use, since my previous THREE Cummins only used about a qt between changes. (Rotella T 15W-40)



The truck I bought had 26,000 on it, and was a lease vehicle. It was pretty beat. I questioned wether any fluid had been changed, ever!.

I was quite pleased after I switched to Amsoil 5w-30 to see the consumption goin down gradually. I did not expect it, and was concerned about the 5W-30. It proved itself to me.



After jSimpson's exprience, I can not say what it would do for you, I can only say what it has done for me.



Fester-

Uncle! He wins, I'm outa here.



See you guys at the Pulling Track.

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by Sled Puller







I was quite pleased after I switched to Amsoil 5w-30 to see the consumption goin down gradually.

Just in case you guys skipped over that and did not read it, I said GRADUALLY over 50,000 miles. Not insatantly.