Motor Oil Bickering

[Don M]

Sled Puller,

I hate to see you leave the debate. You have been at this oil stuff much longer than I. I just started figuring all this oil stuff out. Just a few months ago I had no idea the API donut even made a difference. Your an oil specialist and have been trained by Amsoil to qualify the vehicle right? Can you explain to me how you qualify a vehicle? What trainng have you received to do this qualifying?

I have no training in oil related subjects. None! You have an advantage over me in this respect. Big time!



So, what are the factors involved in qualifying a vehicle?



Don~



edit-



Gene wrote:"Anyway, yes, that is a benefit of synthetics, they don't burn up and go into the atmosphere. "



Can you explain this to me? I have an exact different opinion that synthetics do burn up and go into the atmosphere much faster than the Dinos do. I can explain my position if you can.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by rrausch

By the way Gene, nothing personal, but in the last thread you referred to Don's supporters as being Liberals. Not true here! I certainly have applauded Don's attempts at seeking veracity. But I am a Gun-Totin', Bush-Votin', Tractor-Drivin', Clinton-Hatin', Rush-Listenin', Jesus-Praisin' Ex-U. S. Army Sgt. Hardly a Liberal!----although I do confess... 25 years ago I did vote Democratic.



I have the heart of a Liberal though... I DO! I keep it in a jar under my desk!

I thought Santa Monica required proof that you were a registered democrat before you could live there



I was wondering if anybody else took offense to that remark. I have a few choice words regarding that 'attack' but I'll refrain for the time being.



Gene - in an earlier thread you stated that you would switch to an oil that 'exceeds API specs'. Can you (or Amsoil corporate?) please provide test data comparable to the API tests that show Amsoil exceeds the API specs for the given classification? Qualifying an oil by similarity doesn't convince me of it's ability.



These threads remind me a lot of the Banks threads. I really appreciated it when Gale Banks chimed in on those threads.



Brian

 

[rrausch]

"I thought Santa Monica required proof that you were a registered democrat before you could live there! "



I snuck in!



Actually there are a lot of Conservatives here. Lots of older folks with common sense, but we are not a majority. The problem is that the City Council has been taken over by Ultra-Liberals. So we get things like...

No Christmas Decorations downtown.



In the 1980's the S. M. City Council passed a resolution supporting the PLO!

Oh yeah... they had to back down from that one, but it shows you how idoitic the left wingers are.

 

[Don M]

The only tests I have seem from Amsoil is the four ball wear scar tests. The funny thing is... the four ball wear scar test was developed for lubricating greases in the first place. It was not originally for testing oils at all. This is the only test that Amsoil has ever supplied any of us to compare.

Amsoil has told me in a letter the reasons they dont seek API certification for their oils. I think it was a form letter they pass out. Some of the reasons they gave me have been dis-proven by the API though. Im not sure what the heck to believe.

I just want to see some data. Some engine testing data.

Something. Not oil analysis from companies that have been proven to be up to 20% off from tester to tester with the same oil.

20% off is a big deal to me. Pretty sloppy.



I have seen several people now ask for the test data and nothing has been presented to any one of them.



Don~

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

Of course any oil will burn. I believe that Gene is referring to "volatility burnoff". This (Noack volatility) is a measure of how much of a lubricant can be expected to vaporize at 250 degrees Celsius. All oils, regardless of origin, suffer from this phenomenon to some degree. Synthetics, on average, suffer from it to a lesser degree. This usually results in lower oil consumption with high quality synthetics. I say usually because this only applies to engines in good mechanical condition that are not consuming oil for other reasons.



This reduced volatility results from the fact that high quality synthetic base stocks are much more homogenous in nature than base stocks made from crude oil. This factor allows synthetics to thicken less than petroleum oils over the long haul. This factor is another point supporting the possibility of utilizing extended drain intervals.

 

[Riflesmith]

I have a question for those who are adamantly against extended drains using Synthetics.



Is it just me or do those of us in the "Synthetic Camp" have more flexibility in our beliefs? Let me explain.



-Most synthetic users users on this site readily admit that conventional oils changed at reasonable intervals will result in long equipment life.



-Most synthetic oil users on this site do not criticize people that utilize conventional maintenance. I have frequently told prospective users of Delo, for example, that they are making an excellent choice.



I am not trying to intensify the debate, simply wondering if it is Synthetic oils in general some of you are opposed to, extended drains only, or both.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Riflesmith - *I* have FREQUENTLY pointed out MY opinion that synthetics are generally SUPERIOR to even the BEST dino oils - and that *I* use synthetics in 3 out of 4 of my personal vehicles. But THOSE vehicles are exposed to "special" operating conditions that I feel make the use of synthetics a good choice, well worth the added expense for the Mobil 1 used. But even at that, no WAY would I go with extended drain intervals - because NO WAY will OLD OIL, regardless of brand, function and protect like NEW stuff fresh from the bottle - and those who claim it WILL are only kidding themselves and any who will listen to them!~



Clear enough?



If *I* want/expect honest/impartial and unslanted info on a product or service, the absolute LAST place I go is to the one PROVIDING it!



Better to go to an expert in the field with no interest or ties to the product if you want an impartial appraisal. Ask the average Ford owner - or a Ford Dealer what is the best truck on the market - what do you think their response will be? That's ONE reason for independent certification of oils by outfits like API - they are IMPARTIAL in their testing and certification.



SLEDPULLER - about the bearing-saving antifreeze - what test data against competing brands of antifreeze exists? If none, would YOU be willing to provide your truck as a test vehicle for the group, and we'll simply pour a quart or so of the stuff into your crankcase and watch as you drive it normally for a month or so? Not fair? Why not?



I mean, ya gotta have FAITH in cases like this, just as WE are asked to accept on good FAITH that Amsoil "exceeds API ratings" even without the SLIGHTEST test data or certification to PROVE that claim. And NO, *I* don't think it's logical, or in ANY way up to the CONSUMER to "prove" a product is unsuitable for its intended use... That's what we HAVE independent certification agencies for!



Can threads like his serve a useful purpose? *I* certainly think so, and there MUST be a fair amount of interest, judging by the length of the threads - but perhaps we DO need a "lubricants" area on the board, so those few who get overly excited when exposed to "spirited" discussions can more easily avoid exposure to material that distresses them...



Please observe the above is a fair question, posed calmly and without personal attack of ANY kind!

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Riflesmith

I have a question for those who are adamantly against extended drains using Synthetics.



Is it just me or do those of us in the "Synthetic Camp" have more flexibility in our beliefs? Let me explain.



-Most synthetic users users on this site readily admit that conventional oils changed at reasonable intervals will result in long equipment life.



-Most synthetic oil users on this site do not criticize people that utilize conventional maintenance. I have frequently told prospective users of Delo, for example, that they are making an excellent choice.



I am not trying to intensify the debate, simply wondering if it is Synthetic oils in general some of you are opposed to, extended drains only, or both.

Riflesmith,

I'm probably one of the most 'flexible' guy on this discussion I run Mobil1 5W-30 in my wife's Explorer (no extended drain intervals), PB15W-40 in my truck, whatever I can find on sale in my CJ-7 - it has a leaky rear main seal, Mobil1 15W-50 in both our 4 stroke dirt bikes - '99 WR400 & '92 XR250, Golden Spectro in the trans of my '90 KX500, various synthetics in the trans/xfer/axles of my CJ-7. I will be using synthetics for the running gear fluids when the time comes for the Explorer & my truck.



As a side note about my flexibility: I've owned Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha & Suzuki motorcycles - I don't really believe in brand loyality



I look at the application and 'qualify' the vehicle/use. For me there are really no financial benefits to running the high dollar (Amsoil or Redline) synthetics in the engine of any of my vehicles. It's easier/cheaper to change the oil every 3000 - 7500 miles depending on application/use. I thought Gary made a very good argument about the 400k life on dino oil vs the benefits of Amsoil. I drive my truck ~18k miles/year. The guys driving 100k per year are a different story.



Brian

 

[Don M]

Gene,



Before I add my comments would you be interested in responding to the question I posed about synthetics dont burn up and enter the atmosphere?



Riflesmith,



I still believe that synthetics are a wise choice for some applications. Just not the Dodge/Cummins application. Now if we add some pan capacity I would be more inclined to try this again.

To me its the viscosity and other physical characteristics that make a PAO superior for long term lubricant use. This does not however fly in the face of my thinking that the pan capacity is too small in our engines to do extended oil drain intervals. I currently have a synthetic oil in my transfer case, transmission(Castrol Syn-torq) and the rear axle.

So, to sum up. Im opposed to extended drain intervals in our trucks. Im not opposed to synthetics in every case. My feelings are to get the oil out of the truck on a regular basis and in our application the synthetics are way too much money and not needed for long engine life. Further, if the extended drains are backed up with oil analysis that can be as much as 20% off from analyzer to analyzer I see another potential problem here. You could be running oil that is way out of spec or using an oil that is not tailored to your engine. The Oil Analyzers report I provided showed just this. They never told the guy to change to another type of oil. They just told him to "drain it". "Nitration is high"

They were further wrong in stating the EGR may be malfunctioning. That was not the case.



The professional opinion of the Tribologist was the oil was not suited for the vehicle and to go to normal drain intervals. The oil was dead at half its expected life.



Synthetics cant pay for themselves in the long run in our application with a comfort level I can live with personally.

I deal in 2 to 3 hundred percent comfort or safety levels. Extended drains are a marginal practice IMO.

And since my truck is far from stock I feel another need to get the oil outta' there even more. I still want to see some data from Amsoil and a high mileage truck would be nice as well



Expanding a bit... I have a serious problem with vendors who sell the wrong viscosity of oil for engines, axles, and transmissions.

Anyone care to pound on this for awile. I see it all the time on the TDR. Guys using thinnner oils than required.



Don~

 

[lschultz]

I said I wasn't going to read anymore of this but here I am. I think I dosed off 4 times reading this. But this is it. Why don't you two send emails to each other?Get a life!From now on ya'll are out of the picture. Oo. :-{} This back and forth is history.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Sled Puller



Do you know there is an Anti-freeze on the market that won't take your bearings out if you blow a headgasket?



Wanna guess who makes it?

Gene,

Are you referring to Amsoil propyleneglycol antifreeze? There are others that make it - the gallon of RV antifreeze (drinking water) I bought at WalMart is pg - not eg.



Brian

 

[Riflesmith]

Don,

I don't recall claiming that utiizing synthetic oil and extended drains was less costly than using conventional oil and drain intervals. If I did, I retract that because for me it is not the case, nor am I trying to make it so.



Cost is not the issue, superior protection is(with me). I don't care if it costs more, what I am interested in is long life.

I change out my Amsoil 5W-30 HDD every 30,000 miles. This is under review due to my power enhancements. If I need to shorten the interval I will. But I will not back away from synthetics due to increased costs.



I fully acknowledge, once again that conventional engine oil of proper quality will make the cummins outlast most any other vehicle out there. I simply desire to absolutely minimize wear on the entire vehicle. I believe I am using the best product to acheive that goal.



I use an oil thinner than recommended by the manufacturer for one simple reason, oil analysis results by many different people using 15W40 oils, both synthetic and conventional, could not match the lower iron ppm numbers being reported by ACTUAL USERS of Amsoil 5W-30 HDD over the same intervals. This is proof enough for me that this oil actually protects better. Since using this oil my iron numbers easily matched theirs.



After using this oil, the whole truck just sounded better to me, and the additonal 1MPG I averaged did not hurt anything either.

 

[rrausch]

Personally I'm not in favor of extended drain intervals for my Cummins. Ain't gonna do it. Nope. I do have Amsoil in my rear diff.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Riflesmith - your last post seems entirely reasonable to me - I've seen enough test data to indicate that it IS possible to stretch motor oil - synthetic OR dino - 30,000 miles with good protection. I *personally* am uncomfortable with that mileage, but 30,000 miles or 1 year (whichever comes first) seems do-able, especially with use of a bypass filter and full flow filters installed and changed regularly. But mileages and time-in-service beyond those numbers is NOT wise in my estimation, and even with those numbers, a mid-point oil analysis would seem prudent!





SEE, I think we are finally finding some common ground for agreement! :--)

 

[Johnboy3]

Has anyone noticed.........

that the brandy new shiny 03 Cummins comes with extended drains of 15,000 miles from 7,500. Seems like regular oil can go the distance.



Or perhaps someone should quickly email them and let them know that the oil needs to be changed at 5,000 miles with Rotella-T religiously or problems will occur.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

NAHHHhhh - just gotta be sure to use an API *certified* oil to go that distance!

 

[Sled Puller]

Oh no... ... .....

 

[Pit Bull]

I understand that the "new" cummins engine will have to use the new CI or CJ rated oils??? Maybe with these new oils longer oil drain intervals will then be OK with the manufacture? I wonder if it will also enable longer drain intervals with our trucks? I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[Riflesmith]

Gary,

Thank you. I too think the opposing points of view are really not that far apart. After all it simply boils down to individual product choice. Everyone participating in this thread as well as those just reading has the long life and proper protection of their trucks in mind.



I would never extend drain intervals to the lengths I do without regular full-flow filter changes and oil analysis every 7500 miles.



This gives me all the peace of mind I need to extend the drain intervals to 30,000 miles. I am not comfortable going any longer even if the numbers look OK.

 

['956Wheel]

I have read and reread this entire thread. WHAT A KICK IN THE PANTS! One guy flip flopin his name another accused of being a liberal (do liberals drive diesels? NOT). I bet most the guys here have shoot'in irons, as there is a huge display of patriotism here on a regular basis, GOD BLESS! Then there is the "twisted panties"... sounds painful .



Put what you want in your motor/engine, its a free country! When you do decide on a oil do so when informed. I happen to like Delo 400... . no leaks, very little consumption, just turned over 167K. Can find it anywhere at anytime. No I do not deal in the stuff!



Information or motivation, you simply must decide for yourself. Think of all those "been around forever" products, they sell themselves... no lofty yarns and fancy B******T! The TDR administators had to add rules with regards to these kind of threads... sad but needed. Thanks to all of you for a super site!



Now, in closing, I need to know is security needed at the get togethers or do you bring your own?



Mike