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New Lockup Torque Converters

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Don,

Any idea when your website will be up and running. I am going to be getting a new converter soon, and I would like to look at what you are offering.



I know of a least 4 other guy's who will be upgradeing also, but it seams like my truck is the test bed for us, if I make a good discovery, I end up doing the same to their rigs.



I have been pretty lucky so far thanks to the members comments on the TDR, I buy the best stuff for me, the first time around.

:):) :)
 
Johnboy3, It's not because a stock motor would dog out. All of the dodge automatic trucks have a lock-up TC. Also all of them are 100% in lock-up, unless slipped i. e. with a bombed motor. As to why all trucks don't have lock-up, the duramax doesn't, I dunno. I'm sure one of the transmission guys will answer that. Also I think the difference you're talking about is in fluid coupling, not lock-up. There's major differences in fluid couping, but lock-up is lock-up either 100% or it's slipping. On a truck that doesn't have enough power to slip a stock TC in lock-up you wouldn't notice any difference in an aftermarket TC in lockup. But like I said, out of lock-up... what a difference, at least from what I've heard. :D

Corey
 
Hmmm, the only 100% fluid coupling I could see would be a five or six speed in a deep water crossing:p Just kidding around w/you.

A 2,300 rpm stall converter on a car and a ??% TC on a truck are only different in design, not principle. The numbers for each are only reference numbers, not factual numbers for each application. Lets say John has 600 hp and a 91% converter, his fluid coupling won't be much much better than Joe who has 200 hp and an 80% converter. Don't get me wrong, even w/200 hp Joe would gain efficiency by going with the 91%, but would be a dog off the line.

So, the efficiency of the TC is directly relative to the horsepower and torque output of the motor.

Not trying to flame anyone here, just sharing:D
 
Steve, I see what you mean... maybe I didn't expalin myself good enough or maybe I don't understand you :confused:. I know a stall and % are different, the stall gets the motor in the powerband, the % makes the weaker motor "have more power" or not be a dog at least that's the way it makes sense to me . Anyways, I just don't understand how their converter can be 100% efficient in fluid coupling and still come to a complete stop without stalling the motor. The explanation is probably an easy one, but I don't get it yet.

Corey
 
NO CONVERTER IS 100% EFFICIENT IN FLUID COUPLING!!!! None. Zip. Zero. That is why lockup exists. I am really sure that any competent transmission person would never claim this. As cumminsaholic said, lockup is either 100% or it is slipping. If someone tells you that their converter is 100% efficient in lockup, then they are just saying that it doesn’t slip. I don’t think that this is really worth mentioning cuz if their converter isn’t 100% efficient in lockup it is garbage. :) :)
 
Originally posted by CumminsAholic

Sorry for my ignorance, but I still don't understand the 100% efficiency rating in fluid coupling. How does it unlock? Like at a stop sign, if it's 100% efficient out of lock-up why doesn't the engine die? Or is there a stall built into the converter so under a certian RPM, like idle, it doesn't move(like a drag racing car with a stall converter that doesn't engage til 2500 RPM?)? That car is just an example, if that's how it works, then I understand, otherwise could you please explain it better for me and others to understand. Also, if my truck had a 100% tc instead of say 89% wouldn't it have really bad turbo lag? Also I believe that Bill's TC drops about 200 rpm when it goes into lock-up. If yours is 100% in fluid coupling it should have NO rpm drop into lock-up right? 100% to 100% should be no drop. I can see the 200rpm drop if it's 93%, but can't understand it if it's 100%, please explain. Thanks for the info, I'd call if I had the time, but I don't and when I do, it's late at night when everybody is closed. I'm still looking for a TC, I was going to go with Bill's but I like to keep my options open. I also want the best, Bill has proved that to me. If yours is better then it'll be behind my motor. I guess time will tell. Thanks Again,

Corey
The housing of the torque converter is bolted to the engine, so it turns at whatever speed the engine is running at. The fins that make up pump of the torque converter are attached to the housing, so they also turn at the same speed as the engine. The pump inside a torque converter is a type of centrifugal pump. As it spins, fluid is flung to the outside.

As fluid to the outside, a vacuum is created that draws more fluid in at the center.

The fluid then enters the blades of the turbine, which is connected to the transmission.

The turbine causes the transmission to spin, which basically moves your truck.

The blades of the turbine are curved this means that the fluid, which enters the turbine from the outside, has to change direction before it exits the center of the turbine. It is this directional change that cases the turbine to spin. In order to change the direction of a moving object, you must apply a force to that object—it doesn’t matter if the object is a car or a drop of fluid. And whatever applies the force that causes the object to turn must also feel that force, but in the opposite direction. So as the turbine causes the fluid to change direction, the fluid causes the turbine to spin. The fluid exits the turbine at the center, moving in a different direction than it was when it entered. The fluid exits the turbine moving opposite the direction that the pump (and engine) are turning. If the fluid were to hit the pump, it would slow the engine down, wasting power. This is why a torque converter has a stator. The stator resides in the very center of the torque converter. Its job is redirect the fluid returning from the turbine before it hits the pump again. This dramatically increases the efficiency of the torque converter. The stator has a very aggressive blade design that almost completely reverses the direction of the fluid. A one-way clutch (inside the stator) connects the stator to a fixed shaft in the transmission the direction that the clutch allows the stator to spin. Because of this arrangement, the stator cannot spin with fluid—it can spin only in the opposite direction, forcing the fluid to change direction as it hits the stator blades. Something a little bit tricky happens when the truck gets moving. There is a point, around 40 mph at which both the pump and the turbine are spinning at almost the same speed (the pump always spins faster). At this point, the fluid returns from the turbine, into the pump, already moving in the same direction as the pump, so the stator is not needed. Evan though the turbine changes the direction of the fluid and flings it out the fluid still ends up moving in the direction that the turbine is spinning because the turbine is spinning faster in one direction than the fluid is being pumped in the other direction. At these speeds, the fluid actually strikes the back sides of the stator blades, causing the stator to freewheel on its one-way clutch so it doesn’t hinder the fluid moving through it. In addition to the very important job of allowing your truck to come to a complete stop without stalling the torque converter actually gives your truck more torque when you accelerate out of a stop. Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission. At higher speeds, the transmission catches up to the engine, eventually moving at almost the same speed. Ideally, though the transmission would move at exactly the same speed as the engine, because this difference in speed wastes power. This is part of the reason why trucks with automatic transmissions get worse gas mileage than trucks with manual transmissions. To counter this effect, some trucks have a torque converter with a lockup clutch when the two halves of the torque converter get up to speed, this clutch locks them together eliminating the slippage and improving efficiency.



Hope this helps

Don Ramer ATS/PTC
 
Well that's a post well worth saving in my computer... .



All ready done.



Very nice explanation of the mysterious torque converter,, BUT,, I'm still glad I have a 5-speed :D



MerrickNJr
 
Thanks for the explanation Don. :) It hepled me out and I'm sure many others. I have a few mare questions though. In reading earlier you guys stated that your TC was 100% efficient out of lock-up. Did I read that right or is it supposed to mean in lock-up. What I get from your last post is that your TC is 100% efficient out of lock-up at about 40 mph. Is anybody else's 100% at a certian time/speed? Ok... here's the main one. If Bill rates his at 89, 91 and 93% out of lock-up, what would yours be rated at on the same scale that he rates his at (if you know the scale)? I know it's a big jump to go from about 75% to 89%, but to 100%... that'd be amazing. You have my attention, keep us posted on any new findings.

Corey
 
Originally posted by ronsram1999

Glad to see God is still God and not someone from the north.

Ron



When going to church on Sunday God is God. When looking for transmission stuff, God is someone from up north. Now that does not mean these guys have a bad product. But like stated earlier in this thread, you dont get to the top in just 1 post. You have to earn it and work your way up. Who knows, maybe in a year from now, God will be someone from Denver.
 
Corey, there's no such animal. 100% is in lockup, it will be something less if out of lockup. I believe it was stated that the RPM drop into lockup was around 200 RPM. DTT's 89% has less than a 100 RPM drop and their 91% has about 75 RPM drop into lockup.
 
Originally posted by bipit

Don,

Any idea when your website will be up and running. I am going to be getting a new converter soon, and I would like to look at what you are offering.



I know of a least 4 other guy's who will be upgradeing also, but it seams like my truck is the test bed for us, if I make a good discovery, I end up doing the same to their rigs.



I have been pretty lucky so far thanks to the members comments on the TDR, I buy the best stuff for me, the first time around.

:):) :)
Thanks for asking we have been working on it for sometime. Our product line has been changing with the transmission & torque converter line. This has been taking a little longer to get all of it updated. We should be up and running with more by the end of the month. We also have been working on some new fuel system stuff and air induction products that also should be showing up by the end of the month. We offer a big line of products, this is taking a little longer for all of the photo's and write up's on them. We also have been working with all out racing stuff this will also show up. We hope to put more of a wide range of choices for customers use. Thanks for your input if we can be of help let us know.



Don Ramer

ATS/PTC
 
Originally posted by CumminsAholic

Thanks for the explanation Don. :) It hepled me out and I'm sure many others. I have a few mare questions though. In reading earlier you guys stated that your TC was 100% efficient out of lock-up. Did I read that right or is it supposed to mean in lock-up. What I get from your last post is that your TC is 100% efficient out of lock-up at about 40 mph. Is anybody else's 100% at a certian time/speed? Ok... here's the main one. If Bill rates his at 89, 91 and 93% out of lock-up, what would yours be rated at on the same scale that he rates his at (if you know the scale)? I know it's a big jump to go from about 75% to 89%, but to 100%... that'd be amazing. You have my attention, keep us posted on any new findings.

Corey
The converter has a wide range of fluid coupling choices. The normal range we like to see is 85% to 90% range this makes the rpm drop better when the torque converter locks up, than it's 100% with no slip. The fluid coupling should be efficient, so the turbine shaft does not take such a big hit if the engine is beefed up. Remember the transmission drives off of fluid until lock up happens, this is when you get all of the torque, in lock up. We try not to make the fluid coupling to tight this will give low end lag. The turbo charger needs a little bit to spool up.

Let us know if you need anything else.

Thank Don Ramer

ATS/PTC
 
Originally posted by dramer

The converter has a wide range of fluid coupling choices. The normal range we like to see is 85% to 90% range this makes the rpm drop better when the torque converter locks up, than it's 100% with no slip. The fluid coupling should be efficient, so the turbine shaft does not take such a big hit if the engine is beefed up. Remember the transmission drives off of fluid until lock up happens, this is when you get all of the torque, in lock up. We try not to make the fluid coupling to tight this will give low end lag. The turbo charger needs a little bit to spool up.

Let us know if you need anything else.

Thank Don Ramer

ATS/PTC



So what's the ticket for the A518, which has no lockup clutch? Especially one with tall gears and an extra 75 to 100 horsepower?
 
Originally posted by Power Wagon





So what's the ticket for the A518, which has no lockup clutch? Especially one with tall gears and an extra 75 to 100 horsepower?
The best fluid-coupling converter, that will work with your tall gears. A stator that will yield a good 88% to 93% fluid coupling should work very well. The only thing would be the turbo? Sometimes the fluid coupling needs to be matched with your fuel set up and turbo so that you keep the take off lag & smoke down as much as possible. The next thing is, are you looking at an over/under drive? We like that package it works well with the early trucks. Also one other thing it also makes a difference on how tall the rear gears are? Also some minor shift mods might need to be done.

Don Ramer

ATS/PTC
 
Corey

TC efficiency is very difficult to calculate. There are many aspects that must be considered when calculating an efficiently number to this. I will only address power transfer from the engine to the transmission input shaft at this point. I will try to give an example of this. When you start off from a stop the "turbine" (part hooked to the transmission) is stationary or not turning, wile the impeller (part hooked to the engine) is rotating at engine speed. If you were to calculate efficiency at this point there would be an efficiency rate of 0%. Now if you were to take the same vehicle at 80mph you may have a 95 to 98% efficiency rating. A few problems with just giving a percentage rating to the converters efficiency is engine power out-put, load, RPM, vortex flow, rotary flow etc.

One thing that needs to be understood about torque converters is the difference between: 1) Stall speed 2) Torque multiplication and 3) Fluid coupling. These three areas in a torque converter can be confusing.

If a near perfect fluid efficiency at high RPM is what we want then remove the stator (Part that redirects fluid from the turbine to the impeller inside the converter) from the torque converter. Now you have a fluid coupling, and we are back in the 50's. Of course this wouldn’t work in our Diesel’s because we need some low-end or torque multiplication. The stator in the center of the torque converter gives us that torque multiplication that accelerates us from a stop but is also acts as a hindrance when we are in a rotary flow at higher rpm's.

We have focused our efforts on three areas when designing the torque converter for the Cummins engine.



1) We wanted enough initial stall speed to get the engine up to speed in order to make usable power, but not so high the engine races through the peak power band of the motor like the factory converter.



2) We wanted better torque multiplication (fluid direction). This transfers more power to rear wheels and generates less heat.



3) The last is fluid coupling, we did not want a fluid coupling that was to efficient because we utilize a 100% mechanical connection.



In short Ha-Ha, The converter we have designed will allow the engine to run in its optimal power range as often as passable, then have the ability to lock-up and transfer 100% of its power to the wheels with out any slip. I will try to keep my discriptions shorter in the futuer.

Clint Cannon

ATS Transmissions

www.dieseltorqueconverters.com
 
$

I have not seen anyone ask yet... ... what is the price for these little numbers going to be? and are these stators milled or welded? and what would you recomend for line pressure if I want nice firm shifts? in a 300 HP aplication? thanks, Jim
 
Just waking this thread back up.

Like Jim, I'm interested in the construction of your stator. My truck has an older BD TC that the previous owner installed. Everything is still in good working order but out dated do to advances in technology.

I am aware of the loss of efficiency at higher rpms do to the milled stator in my converter.

I don't mind towing while locked up, but while accelerating I would just as soon use the fluid coupling. Makes me a little nervous transferring the shock of such a torque monster without some give. Unlike some of these guys, I can't afford the downtime and cost of replacing broken parts. :eek:

Any more education you could provide would be appreciated:D
 
CCannon, Don't worry about the long posts, I like learning from them and I'm sure others do too. That's why I became a member, to learn and help others learn.

Dramer, That's what I wanted to know. I think I want a 89% because I want quick spool up but still acceleration after it spools up. I can always build boost on the line for a drag race, Plus I plan on being over 400 horse by next spring. :D I'll try to call you as soon as I can, I'm also going to call Bill. I just want what's best for me, not anybody else. Thanks for all of the info, I kinda knew how it worked, but now I have the mental picture... or movie I guess. :)

Corey
 
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