Good post Bill, I learned something new which is the reason I joined TDR in the first place.
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New Lockup Torque Converters
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Bill,
Okay, next lesson (for me). I buy the notion that increased weight will cause increased bearing wear. I'll have to take your word for that one, I'm no transmission tech.
I gather that the purpose for the billet cover is to allow a greater pressure to be applied. Lets , for the sake of arguement, assume that the front cover could be significantly strengthened to allow increased pressure. Is it necessary? what is the current holding capacity of a lockup clutch in hp? how much can that be extended by an increase in pressure?
I would assume that at some point the crush point of the friction material could be exceeded causing disintegration due to crumbling of the coatings. I think this is unlikely.
What are the biggest issues with Lockup converters? I assume they are dealing with low rpm holding power.
If increasing the surface area and pressure are not the answer, how are you proposing the problem be solved?
If increasing pressure and surface area are the fix then you must be doing the same. What is your idea? It is obviously not the multi-disk approach.
On another front. .
What are the qualities to look for in a TC while not locked up? Assume that I have a CTD engine in the 350-400 hp range w/the power band starting around 1500rpm and the engine will never exceed 3500rpm. The truck weighs 8000# and will be grossing 22k with 3. 55 gears. what are the differences if the rearend is a 4. 10?
What modifications do you recommend for the transmission?
Do you recommend the 47RE or is there a better transmission for the application?
Gimme a minute the get another guiness... . oh, and more popcorn
Okay, next lesson (for me). I buy the notion that increased weight will cause increased bearing wear. I'll have to take your word for that one, I'm no transmission tech.
I gather that the purpose for the billet cover is to allow a greater pressure to be applied. Lets , for the sake of arguement, assume that the front cover could be significantly strengthened to allow increased pressure. Is it necessary? what is the current holding capacity of a lockup clutch in hp? how much can that be extended by an increase in pressure?
I would assume that at some point the crush point of the friction material could be exceeded causing disintegration due to crumbling of the coatings. I think this is unlikely.
What are the biggest issues with Lockup converters? I assume they are dealing with low rpm holding power.
If increasing the surface area and pressure are not the answer, how are you proposing the problem be solved?
If increasing pressure and surface area are the fix then you must be doing the same. What is your idea? It is obviously not the multi-disk approach.
On another front. .
What are the qualities to look for in a TC while not locked up? Assume that I have a CTD engine in the 350-400 hp range w/the power band starting around 1500rpm and the engine will never exceed 3500rpm. The truck weighs 8000# and will be grossing 22k with 3. 55 gears. what are the differences if the rearend is a 4. 10?
What modifications do you recommend for the transmission?
Do you recommend the 47RE or is there a better transmission for the application?
Gimme a minute the get another guiness... . oh, and more popcorn
Interesting questions Mark,
My solution was actually quite simple. Tell the truth.
No, I cannot handle the power of the Dodge Cummins Diesel in lock up mode and for me to claim otherwise would be a lie.
If other companies choose they can do this, that is their right, it is not our policy to make these type of false claims. I am not going to treat my customers like idiots and expect them to believe that the lockup clutch is as strong at 1000rpms as it is at 3000rpms.
If you want to take it and break down your 6 speed cannot handle the power of the cummins either.
Next time you hook on to your trailer, try starting out in 6th gear and see how long your clutch lasts.
We use the same approach when we talk to our automatic customers, we try to get them to use the proper gear and not to use lockup for excelleration.
If you talk to any of our customers they will tell you that the value of lockup is over rated , you can excellerate a vehicle quicker by using the right gear, and we use lock up as 5th gear rather than lock it up right of the bat.
Most guys when they are buying an after market tc, are buying it because of a tighter fluid coupling and a stronger lockup.
So if your tc is tight enough in fluid coupling you shouldnt need lockup for transferring the power.
When you go on a dyno, most standard guys will dyno their trucks in 4th, or 5th gear as that is where they get their highest power rating from.
Yet on the street none of them seem to start off in fourth or 5th gear.
A 410 gear ratio over a 355 gear ratio puts less load on your clutch, the same is true on the automatic. All things being equal , a 410 gear ratio is going to put less load on your drive train.
Its our belief that if a customer is aware that his lockup clutch is weak at low rpms he will be less likely to abuse it at the low rpms.
We are in no way suggesting our lock up is weaker than anyone elses. Our lock up clutch systems have been tested on dynos as well as at the track. They have held at over 700 hp , and we are continuing to go higher. Really though, how many guys out there are going to drive at 3000+ rpms.
The lock up clutch holding capacity is directly related to rpms.
As far as fluid coupling is concerned one of the limitations is the turbo charger. Another consideration is when you switch over to a 410 gear ratio from a 355 , while you can go tighter with the tc , it will produce a more violent shift than the 355 gear ratio.
No matter which tc you buy it is definately eaisier to get rolling with a 410 gear ratio. ( it also has a lot less turbo lag)
We make a lot of different transmission modifications based on the individual trucks as we acknowledge every driver, truck and application is different.
That is one of the main reasons we are so insistent that installers be properly trained, we know the tc and vb modifications should not be treated as bolt in items . Proper tuning and set up is half of the job.
Think of it like buying a race carburator and putting it on a race engine. You are going to have to set it up.
If i have left out any specific details or specs you were wanting, please know it is by design, i have a responsibility to my family and employees to maintain certain R&D confidentiality.
My solution was actually quite simple. Tell the truth.
No, I cannot handle the power of the Dodge Cummins Diesel in lock up mode and for me to claim otherwise would be a lie.
If other companies choose they can do this, that is their right, it is not our policy to make these type of false claims. I am not going to treat my customers like idiots and expect them to believe that the lockup clutch is as strong at 1000rpms as it is at 3000rpms.
If you want to take it and break down your 6 speed cannot handle the power of the cummins either.
Next time you hook on to your trailer, try starting out in 6th gear and see how long your clutch lasts.
We use the same approach when we talk to our automatic customers, we try to get them to use the proper gear and not to use lockup for excelleration.
If you talk to any of our customers they will tell you that the value of lockup is over rated , you can excellerate a vehicle quicker by using the right gear, and we use lock up as 5th gear rather than lock it up right of the bat.
Most guys when they are buying an after market tc, are buying it because of a tighter fluid coupling and a stronger lockup.
So if your tc is tight enough in fluid coupling you shouldnt need lockup for transferring the power.
When you go on a dyno, most standard guys will dyno their trucks in 4th, or 5th gear as that is where they get their highest power rating from.
Yet on the street none of them seem to start off in fourth or 5th gear.
A 410 gear ratio over a 355 gear ratio puts less load on your clutch, the same is true on the automatic. All things being equal , a 410 gear ratio is going to put less load on your drive train.
Its our belief that if a customer is aware that his lockup clutch is weak at low rpms he will be less likely to abuse it at the low rpms.
We are in no way suggesting our lock up is weaker than anyone elses. Our lock up clutch systems have been tested on dynos as well as at the track. They have held at over 700 hp , and we are continuing to go higher. Really though, how many guys out there are going to drive at 3000+ rpms.
The lock up clutch holding capacity is directly related to rpms.
As far as fluid coupling is concerned one of the limitations is the turbo charger. Another consideration is when you switch over to a 410 gear ratio from a 355 , while you can go tighter with the tc , it will produce a more violent shift than the 355 gear ratio.
No matter which tc you buy it is definately eaisier to get rolling with a 410 gear ratio. ( it also has a lot less turbo lag)
We make a lot of different transmission modifications based on the individual trucks as we acknowledge every driver, truck and application is different.
That is one of the main reasons we are so insistent that installers be properly trained, we know the tc and vb modifications should not be treated as bolt in items . Proper tuning and set up is half of the job.
Think of it like buying a race carburator and putting it on a race engine. You are going to have to set it up.
If i have left out any specific details or specs you were wanting, please know it is by design, i have a responsibility to my family and employees to maintain certain R&D confidentiality.
fine tuning
Bill,I'm a carpenter by trade so tranie's are not my forte. but I can appreciate a smooth running engin and a properly shifting trans. At firstI had a misconception as to the" fine tuning part. "My belief was it is"an exact science",For instance a 300 hp motor, a truck @ 7500 lbs. with 4:10 gear's and a transmission expert(20+ years of experience)should be able to"hit the head of the nail "the first time!I know this is not true. The shop I choose spent 7 hours and 8 test drive's(8 times on the lift pan and v. b off 8 times) Which did NOT bother me. What cooked my goose was it was not right after the first or second time back to this shop. Is this a world record or is this "par"for the course. With my truck starting out in 2nd(no more 1st) my tach can reach about 2300 rpm to get the truck rolling! is this a low stall converter or is something dun wrong.
Bill,I'm a carpenter by trade so tranie's are not my forte. but I can appreciate a smooth running engin and a properly shifting trans. At firstI had a misconception as to the" fine tuning part. "My belief was it is"an exact science",For instance a 300 hp motor, a truck @ 7500 lbs. with 4:10 gear's and a transmission expert(20+ years of experience)should be able to"hit the head of the nail "the first time!I know this is not true. The shop I choose spent 7 hours and 8 test drive's(8 times on the lift pan and v. b off 8 times) Which did NOT bother me. What cooked my goose was it was not right after the first or second time back to this shop. Is this a world record or is this "par"for the course. With my truck starting out in 2nd(no more 1st) my tach can reach about 2300 rpm to get the truck rolling! is this a low stall converter or is something dun wrong.
Carson,
On a typicial vb install in our shop we generally charge about 2-3 hours labor. I can tell you i can take a vb out , put a new one in, put oil in the truck and have it parked outside in less than 40 minutes without working up a sweat.
Why do i charge the extra labor, when a truck comes into our shop the first thing our guys do is put a pressure guage on it and road test it.
What they look for is internal pressure leaks within the transmission, they are looking for a trans that hunts, they are looking for many things that most guys dont know about before they start the job because they fail to road test.
This could have played a role in the reasons the vb set up took so long, but they do take time to set up. The 12 valve trucks can be very challenging to set up, things that affect set up are things like fuel cut back & pcm software , and even the expertise of the installer and or the quality of the components being installed.
The biggest mistake guys make in setting up these 12 valves is the kickdown cable, the way dunrite does his vb programming tends to produce very late shifts and he bypasses the pressure rise system , which i definately disagree with.
If you were to do a pressure reading on your vb, you will find it is extremely high which maybe causing your second gear starts.
In our own shop Darrin and Vinnie are pretty good at the 12 valve set up now but i let them learned from the school of hard knocks so they could comprehend what you guys face out there in the field.
I dont know why 8 times, but it is possible that there was another problem and they were blaming it on the vb.
On a typicial vb install in our shop we generally charge about 2-3 hours labor. I can tell you i can take a vb out , put a new one in, put oil in the truck and have it parked outside in less than 40 minutes without working up a sweat.
Why do i charge the extra labor, when a truck comes into our shop the first thing our guys do is put a pressure guage on it and road test it.
What they look for is internal pressure leaks within the transmission, they are looking for a trans that hunts, they are looking for many things that most guys dont know about before they start the job because they fail to road test.
This could have played a role in the reasons the vb set up took so long, but they do take time to set up. The 12 valve trucks can be very challenging to set up, things that affect set up are things like fuel cut back & pcm software , and even the expertise of the installer and or the quality of the components being installed.
The biggest mistake guys make in setting up these 12 valves is the kickdown cable, the way dunrite does his vb programming tends to produce very late shifts and he bypasses the pressure rise system , which i definately disagree with.
If you were to do a pressure reading on your vb, you will find it is extremely high which maybe causing your second gear starts.
In our own shop Darrin and Vinnie are pretty good at the 12 valve set up now but i let them learned from the school of hard knocks so they could comprehend what you guys face out there in the field.
I dont know why 8 times, but it is possible that there was another problem and they were blaming it on the vb.
Hello everyone
The season and shop has kept me busy. I enjoy taking the time to comment and answer questions here, unfortunately there is not lots of time left over after my day has ended.
I need to clear something up, this is primarily directed to you Bill K. You commented in your last two posts that we have been comparing our product to yours. This is not the case.
Your first remark was about an 8 lbs steel stator, and then you state, "I can certainly understand why they had so many problems and had to switch to aluminum". Please let me know about the problems we had??
Your second remark; you had to increase line pressures to improve shift feel for some people. Do not twist my words around! Shift quality and hydraulic apply pressure are two different things. You know this and you knew exactly what I was saying.
Third you claim we are comparing your fluid coupling to our lock-up.
I have not compared our torque converter to yours, I do want people to under stand that mechanical lock-up is more efficient than fluid coupling. I also want people to know if they want mechanical lock-up in there transmissions we will give it to them. I have talked about our converter, research and the development we have gone through in the last few years. Our goal was to develop a product that delivers the type of performance and durability that Diesel truck owners want.
Starting with the stator, we were after a stall that is matched to the Engine. A stall speed that will allow the engine to accelerate from a stop. We found low stall speeds to be detrimental to acceleration from a stop. Our first designs were steel for fabrication reasons only. After we found the exact fluid dynamics that we were after then we moved to cut our stators out of "aluminum" like the factory. We have the ability to cut our stators from aluminum because we are a full machine shop.
There is talk about our billet steel front cover. The steel cover was developed for a few reasons. For the record it has nothing to do with ballooning. Utilizing lock-up on the factory cover causes deflection at the point where the pads are welded to the stamped steel. This is a problem ether in the lock-up mode or in the unlock-up mode, it is just detrimental to the converter in the lock-up mode because the converter clutch must seal on the stamped steel surface in order to maintain hydraulic pressure to hold the clutch against the cover. This explains the reason higher out-put engines have such bad TCC failure. This also explains why you can run a high HP engine for very short durations and use lock-up with the stock stamped steel cover. Our answer to this and others were to build a cover that would eliminate the flexing concerns. The weight of the cover was a concern to us, for this reason we lightened the cover and placed the heaviest portion of the cover in front of the pilot of the crank, not behind the crank shaft. There is no more weight supported by the pump bushing than the factory converter. This is another example of engineering that is incorporated into our designs.
The next step in completing our mission was developing a mechanical lock-up system that would hold with factory line pressures are slightly elevated pressures. The converter clutch mathematical has about 1/2 of the holding force of the 3rd clutch in the transmission. There is clearly work that needs to be done here. The break away torque of a stock converter clutch with factory line pressure in actual conditions is around 500 lbs. That's not bad for one clutch! We wanted to double this, we thought it would be a good match for the transmission. The design favored three clutches. If you do the math or a torque test you come up with three times the holding force. Yes, this is 1500 lbs of break away force. You can compare this to a viscous clutch in a transfer case, stack 40 clutches in a 5 inch diameter circle with only a few pounds of force on them and you can drive a vehicle off of them. I am trying to build a basic concept of operation here.
The torque converter and transmission we offer is engineered and tested, there is always room for improvement with any design, this is why most of us continue to strive for a better mouse trap. We will not stop trying to make our product better, this is what has pushed us to the triple disc converter design along with our transmission modifications.
Clint Cannon
Automotive Transmission Specialist
303. 431. 7973
The season and shop has kept me busy. I enjoy taking the time to comment and answer questions here, unfortunately there is not lots of time left over after my day has ended.
I need to clear something up, this is primarily directed to you Bill K. You commented in your last two posts that we have been comparing our product to yours. This is not the case.
Your first remark was about an 8 lbs steel stator, and then you state, "I can certainly understand why they had so many problems and had to switch to aluminum". Please let me know about the problems we had??
Your second remark; you had to increase line pressures to improve shift feel for some people. Do not twist my words around! Shift quality and hydraulic apply pressure are two different things. You know this and you knew exactly what I was saying.
Third you claim we are comparing your fluid coupling to our lock-up.
I have not compared our torque converter to yours, I do want people to under stand that mechanical lock-up is more efficient than fluid coupling. I also want people to know if they want mechanical lock-up in there transmissions we will give it to them. I have talked about our converter, research and the development we have gone through in the last few years. Our goal was to develop a product that delivers the type of performance and durability that Diesel truck owners want.
Starting with the stator, we were after a stall that is matched to the Engine. A stall speed that will allow the engine to accelerate from a stop. We found low stall speeds to be detrimental to acceleration from a stop. Our first designs were steel for fabrication reasons only. After we found the exact fluid dynamics that we were after then we moved to cut our stators out of "aluminum" like the factory. We have the ability to cut our stators from aluminum because we are a full machine shop.
There is talk about our billet steel front cover. The steel cover was developed for a few reasons. For the record it has nothing to do with ballooning. Utilizing lock-up on the factory cover causes deflection at the point where the pads are welded to the stamped steel. This is a problem ether in the lock-up mode or in the unlock-up mode, it is just detrimental to the converter in the lock-up mode because the converter clutch must seal on the stamped steel surface in order to maintain hydraulic pressure to hold the clutch against the cover. This explains the reason higher out-put engines have such bad TCC failure. This also explains why you can run a high HP engine for very short durations and use lock-up with the stock stamped steel cover. Our answer to this and others were to build a cover that would eliminate the flexing concerns. The weight of the cover was a concern to us, for this reason we lightened the cover and placed the heaviest portion of the cover in front of the pilot of the crank, not behind the crank shaft. There is no more weight supported by the pump bushing than the factory converter. This is another example of engineering that is incorporated into our designs.
The next step in completing our mission was developing a mechanical lock-up system that would hold with factory line pressures are slightly elevated pressures. The converter clutch mathematical has about 1/2 of the holding force of the 3rd clutch in the transmission. There is clearly work that needs to be done here. The break away torque of a stock converter clutch with factory line pressure in actual conditions is around 500 lbs. That's not bad for one clutch! We wanted to double this, we thought it would be a good match for the transmission. The design favored three clutches. If you do the math or a torque test you come up with three times the holding force. Yes, this is 1500 lbs of break away force. You can compare this to a viscous clutch in a transfer case, stack 40 clutches in a 5 inch diameter circle with only a few pounds of force on them and you can drive a vehicle off of them. I am trying to build a basic concept of operation here.
The torque converter and transmission we offer is engineered and tested, there is always room for improvement with any design, this is why most of us continue to strive for a better mouse trap. We will not stop trying to make our product better, this is what has pushed us to the triple disc converter design along with our transmission modifications.
Clint Cannon
Automotive Transmission Specialist
303. 431. 7973
Bill, thanks for the info. Now I get to grill Clint a bit
Clint,
How much doess your converter weigh? how much does a stock one weigh?
If your billet cover has nothing to do with balllooning then explain this statement from DRamer...
I think that what he meant to say is that your TC will handle more pressure than stock before deformation, but deformation was not the primary concern that necessitated the billet cover, it ws the tab failures.
How much weight does the billet cover cost? explain in detail what lead you to believe it was necessary.
How do you see this TC used on a daily basis? explain shift points and lockup points, vb mods, clutch mods. . ect. Give us the whole picture on how you would prep an auto transmission to handle 22-25k loads, using an e-brake, and 400hp of engine on a daily basis. Include when you think lockup should be used and how.
Hope fully this will get rid of the bickering over whhat we are argueing about
and show us what you really know about dodge trucks.
ding,ding
Clint,
How much doess your converter weigh? how much does a stock one weigh?
If your billet cover has nothing to do with balllooning then explain this statement from DRamer...
I think that what he meant to say is that your TC will handle more pressure than stock before deformation, but deformation was not the primary concern that necessitated the billet cover, it ws the tab failures.
How much weight does the billet cover cost? explain in detail what lead you to believe it was necessary.
How do you see this TC used on a daily basis? explain shift points and lockup points, vb mods, clutch mods. . ect. Give us the whole picture on how you would prep an auto transmission to handle 22-25k loads, using an e-brake, and 400hp of engine on a daily basis. Include when you think lockup should be used and how.
Hope fully this will get rid of the bickering over whhat we are argueing about
and show us what you really know about dodge trucks. ding,ding
Clint,
If you weren't comparing DTT to your convertor right off the bat, where did you get your numbers?
Don's opening statement had this line in it.
Maybe it was just a coincidence that DTT names their convertors 89-93%.
Again a few posts later this came up.
And as for this comment,
DTT is the only company that fully upgrades the transmission. They are the only company that won't sell you a convertor.
I may be wrong, but the entire time it looked like you were picking on DTT as your only competition.
If you can remember way back, DTT was the first company to list efficiency numbers. A few years ago, they were all called 'low stall' or 'extra low stall. ' Then here comes DTT to say we tested our convertors in a certain way and these are the numbers we got. The entire market changed. Now everyone tests their convertors in their own way and the numbers are completely useless.
If you will look through the latest TDR magazine, you will see that every other TC from EVERY other vendor advertises a more efficient convertor than DTT. I believe BD advertises 98%.
Why didn't you choose that number for comparision?
I like competition. I want to be the best in everything I do. I'm sure you are the same type of person or you wouldn't have worked so hard to make this new convertor. Don't be afraid to pick on DTT. If you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. And you'll never beat someone if you don't challenge them first.
Good luck,
Chris
If you weren't comparing DTT to your convertor right off the bat, where did you get your numbers?
Don's opening statement had this line in it.
Maybe it was just a coincidence that DTT names their convertors 89-93%.
Again a few posts later this came up.
And as for this comment,
DTT is the only company that fully upgrades the transmission. They are the only company that won't sell you a convertor.
I may be wrong, but the entire time it looked like you were picking on DTT as your only competition.
If you can remember way back, DTT was the first company to list efficiency numbers. A few years ago, they were all called 'low stall' or 'extra low stall. ' Then here comes DTT to say we tested our convertors in a certain way and these are the numbers we got. The entire market changed. Now everyone tests their convertors in their own way and the numbers are completely useless.
If you will look through the latest TDR magazine, you will see that every other TC from EVERY other vendor advertises a more efficient convertor than DTT. I believe BD advertises 98%.
Why didn't you choose that number for comparision?
I like competition. I want to be the best in everything I do. I'm sure you are the same type of person or you wouldn't have worked so hard to make this new convertor. Don't be afraid to pick on DTT. If you want to be the best, you've got to beat the best. And you'll never beat someone if you don't challenge them first.
Good luck,
Chris
Strick9.
You stated: “DTT is the only company that fully upgrades the transmission. They are the only company that won't sell you a converter. ”
I find this to be a very encompassing statement. What are the supporting facts that allowed you to arrive at this conclusion, or is this merely opinion?
My personal experiences with G/B Trans. and ATS contradict your statement.
You continued: “If you can remember way back, DTT was the first company to list efficiency numbers. A few years ago, they were all called 'low stall' or 'extra low stall. ' Then here comes DTT to say we tested our converters in a certain way and these are the numbers we got. The entire market changed. Now everyone tests their converters in their own way and the numbers are completely useless. ”
With my understanding of your statement: “Now everyone tests their converters in their own way and the numbers are completely useless,” I assume that this includes DTT as they test their converters in their own way as well.
I surmise that that the fluid coupling numerical efficiency ratings provided by the vendors are no more accurate or descriptive than “Low stall or extra low stall. ” It’s just a new angle of advertisement. Until the vendors’ products are tested by an unbiased third party utilizing an accepted, established method of measurement, I will continue to view the ratings for what they are…advertisements to sell a product.
DBR
You stated: “DTT is the only company that fully upgrades the transmission. They are the only company that won't sell you a converter. ”
I find this to be a very encompassing statement. What are the supporting facts that allowed you to arrive at this conclusion, or is this merely opinion?
My personal experiences with G/B Trans. and ATS contradict your statement.
You continued: “If you can remember way back, DTT was the first company to list efficiency numbers. A few years ago, they were all called 'low stall' or 'extra low stall. ' Then here comes DTT to say we tested our converters in a certain way and these are the numbers we got. The entire market changed. Now everyone tests their converters in their own way and the numbers are completely useless. ”
With my understanding of your statement: “Now everyone tests their converters in their own way and the numbers are completely useless,” I assume that this includes DTT as they test their converters in their own way as well.
I surmise that that the fluid coupling numerical efficiency ratings provided by the vendors are no more accurate or descriptive than “Low stall or extra low stall. ” It’s just a new angle of advertisement. Until the vendors’ products are tested by an unbiased third party utilizing an accepted, established method of measurement, I will continue to view the ratings for what they are…advertisements to sell a product.
DBR
dbr
Ok it is like this, no way are you guys going to sway DTT customers, because we are already driving a great product. It is your business if you want to go to ATS that is your right. By the way I thought the company ATS is out of Utah? By the way I don’t appreciate anyone flaming Fred Swanson he is a good friend of mine and a great guy. He is an installer for Bill Kondaly, and does a great job ask any of his customers. He uses Bills products because they are top notch; he also does because of Bills customer service. Fred has literally wakened him out of bed for a question, and Bill is always there to help. I know Bill personally, and I have allot of respect for him because there is no BS with him, he will tell straight up how it is, if you like it or not. Bill is not one to be shoved, because when push comes to shove he shoves right back.
I am not saying you don’t have a good product, but to say it is better than Bills is out in left field. I have yet to see a weak spot in his converter. You can see by my signature, I am running pretty good numbers, and his converter doesn’t miss a beat.
I just don’t understand why you guys think just because you have a milled stator that it is going to be better. I have been working in the aerospace industry for 13yrs, so I have pretty good experience with turbines since we manufacture them. You say you rely on lock up, but Bills relies on fluid coupling and lock up, the best of both worlds.
Sorry for the long post just had to vent a little bit.
Ok it is like this, no way are you guys going to sway DTT customers, because we are already driving a great product. It is your business if you want to go to ATS that is your right. By the way I thought the company ATS is out of Utah? By the way I don’t appreciate anyone flaming Fred Swanson he is a good friend of mine and a great guy. He is an installer for Bill Kondaly, and does a great job ask any of his customers. He uses Bills products because they are top notch; he also does because of Bills customer service. Fred has literally wakened him out of bed for a question, and Bill is always there to help. I know Bill personally, and I have allot of respect for him because there is no BS with him, he will tell straight up how it is, if you like it or not. Bill is not one to be shoved, because when push comes to shove he shoves right back.
I am not saying you don’t have a good product, but to say it is better than Bills is out in left field. I have yet to see a weak spot in his converter. You can see by my signature, I am running pretty good numbers, and his converter doesn’t miss a beat.
I just don’t understand why you guys think just because you have a milled stator that it is going to be better. I have been working in the aerospace industry for 13yrs, so I have pretty good experience with turbines since we manufacture them. You say you rely on lock up, but Bills relies on fluid coupling and lock up, the best of both worlds.
Sorry for the long post just had to vent a little bit.
DBR,
Yes, that's how I meant it. The numbers everyone uses is useless for comparison's sake. They are merely advertising numbers. DTT shot themselves in the foot when they published those numbers. Now everyone else has higher numbers for marketing reasons and DTT looks like the worst convertor out there to the uninformed consumer.
I'll agree that may statement about DTT being the only company to fully upgrade the transmission was a little broad.
Here is a fact. Call DTT and ask for one of their convertors ONLY and tell them you aren't going to upgrade anything else. They won't sell you one.
That is what I was trying to get across. They won't take shortcuts to make a sale. They do it right or not at all.
Of course, other transmission shops like ATS or G/B or any local guy can fully upgrade a transmission. I was trying to express that DTT does it with EVERY single sale not just when the customer wants it.
Sorry for the confusion. I could have worded it a little more clearly, but I was in a rush to work as I am now and didn't have time to read through it.
-Chris
Yes, that's how I meant it. The numbers everyone uses is useless for comparison's sake. They are merely advertising numbers. DTT shot themselves in the foot when they published those numbers. Now everyone else has higher numbers for marketing reasons and DTT looks like the worst convertor out there to the uninformed consumer.
I'll agree that may statement about DTT being the only company to fully upgrade the transmission was a little broad.
Here is a fact. Call DTT and ask for one of their convertors ONLY and tell them you aren't going to upgrade anything else. They won't sell you one.
That is what I was trying to get across. They won't take shortcuts to make a sale. They do it right or not at all.
Of course, other transmission shops like ATS or G/B or any local guy can fully upgrade a transmission. I was trying to express that DTT does it with EVERY single sale not just when the customer wants it.
Sorry for the confusion. I could have worded it a little more clearly, but I was in a rush to work as I am now and didn't have time to read through it.
-Chris
Strick9
Thanks for the clarification, and I concur. I was a little confused on the direction of your statements thus my questions.
Azgearpro
I'm confused, was your reply directed solely at me or was it just a general ranting? Just wanted to be clear before addressing your statements.
DBR
Thanks for the clarification, and I concur. I was a little confused on the direction of your statements thus my questions.
Azgearpro
I'm confused, was your reply directed solely at me or was it just a general ranting? Just wanted to be clear before addressing your statements.
DBR
Last edited:
a518 tc?
I'll forgive you for not knowing that Power wagon just got a new (old) truck , and not answering power wagons question, next time read the persons info at the bottom and you might get some info you can use to answer the question instead of throwing out all the options and leaving it at that. Now what can you recommend for the a518 trans as far as a converter, vb, line pressure, coolers... ... ... . etc.
based on this : 1993 d250 dodge ctd w/ auto 3:54 gears k&n air filter and straight pipe ?
I'll forgive you for not knowing that Power wagon just got a new (old) truck , and not answering power wagons question, next time read the persons info at the bottom and you might get some info you can use to answer the question instead of throwing out all the options and leaving it at that. Now what can you recommend for the a518 trans as far as a converter, vb, line pressure, coolers... ... ... . etc.
based on this : 1993 d250 dodge ctd w/ auto 3:54 gears k&n air filter and straight pipe ?
azgearpro
No apology is necessary, however I feel compelled to challenge a few of your statements.
Nowhere in this thread do I read that ATS is trying to covert DTT customers. I interpret the postings by ATS as providing information on a product for “all” to review and discuss, no different than any other vendor has done multiple times on this forum.
You are correct that it is a person’s “business” if he wishes to choose ATS as a vendor. It is no different than your decision to choose DTT. Thank you for clarifying my choices.
The ATS in this posting is out of Denver. I would assume you would have visited their website (listed in their first post of this thread) to better educate yourself on their products. I have attached the following link: http://www.transmissionspecialist.com/Pages/Contact.htm to further assist you in gathering factual information.
I just finished re-reading the entire thread and nowhere did I see any negative (flaming) responses regarding Mr. Swanson.
I respect your personal opinion of Mr. Kondolay and find your support for him commendable, however, my recent visit with Mr. Kondolay doesn’t reflect as positively as yours.
Once again, I re-read the post and nowhere have I found that ATS is stating they have a better converter than DTT. They merely stated that they have produced a converter with a new style of lock-up clutch that does not need to be unlocked under hard acceleration, which is a different approach than other vendors. Until given the opportunity to prove their product, we’ll truly never know, will we?
I don’t see where ATS is stating that their stators are any more efficient than DTT’s; however, until the vendors’ products are tested by an unbiased third party utilizing an accepted, established method of measurement, we will never know.
I disagree with the last statement of your argument. Bill does not rely on a combination of lock-up and fluid coupling; he relies strictly upon fluid coupling. To quote Mr. Kondolay: “No, I cannot handle the power of the Dodge Cummins Diesel in lock up mode and for me to claim otherwise would be a lie”.
As a long term member of the TDR and a general consumer overall, I choose to educate myself in as many aspects as possible before deciding to purchase a particular vendor’s product. The TDR has proven to be a wealth of knowledge for providing factual information since its conception. Unfortunately, the TDR forum has been slowly evolving from that of open-minded, factual-based discussions to one of emotional rhetoric and childish behavior. I, for one, and I am sure others, would have preferred to have heard what ATS had to offer without the addition of the non-factual attacks and general bantering. For those of you who need to argue for the sake of argument, you may wish to visit the following link: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31327
No apology is necessary, however I feel compelled to challenge a few of your statements.
Nowhere in this thread do I read that ATS is trying to covert DTT customers. I interpret the postings by ATS as providing information on a product for “all” to review and discuss, no different than any other vendor has done multiple times on this forum.
You are correct that it is a person’s “business” if he wishes to choose ATS as a vendor. It is no different than your decision to choose DTT. Thank you for clarifying my choices.
The ATS in this posting is out of Denver. I would assume you would have visited their website (listed in their first post of this thread) to better educate yourself on their products. I have attached the following link: http://www.transmissionspecialist.com/Pages/Contact.htm to further assist you in gathering factual information.
I just finished re-reading the entire thread and nowhere did I see any negative (flaming) responses regarding Mr. Swanson.
I respect your personal opinion of Mr. Kondolay and find your support for him commendable, however, my recent visit with Mr. Kondolay doesn’t reflect as positively as yours.
Once again, I re-read the post and nowhere have I found that ATS is stating they have a better converter than DTT. They merely stated that they have produced a converter with a new style of lock-up clutch that does not need to be unlocked under hard acceleration, which is a different approach than other vendors. Until given the opportunity to prove their product, we’ll truly never know, will we?
I don’t see where ATS is stating that their stators are any more efficient than DTT’s; however, until the vendors’ products are tested by an unbiased third party utilizing an accepted, established method of measurement, we will never know.
I disagree with the last statement of your argument. Bill does not rely on a combination of lock-up and fluid coupling; he relies strictly upon fluid coupling. To quote Mr. Kondolay: “No, I cannot handle the power of the Dodge Cummins Diesel in lock up mode and for me to claim otherwise would be a lie”.
As a long term member of the TDR and a general consumer overall, I choose to educate myself in as many aspects as possible before deciding to purchase a particular vendor’s product. The TDR has proven to be a wealth of knowledge for providing factual information since its conception. Unfortunately, the TDR forum has been slowly evolving from that of open-minded, factual-based discussions to one of emotional rhetoric and childish behavior. I, for one, and I am sure others, would have preferred to have heard what ATS had to offer without the addition of the non-factual attacks and general bantering. For those of you who need to argue for the sake of argument, you may wish to visit the following link: https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31327
DBR thank you.
I am a fairly new member and the ******* matches is a turn off.
We should give the new and old venders a chance to prove themselves. If they sell bad products it will come out on the TDR.
We drive Dodges,some drive Fords,others drive Duramaxes.
They all get us from point a to point b. Some just faster
I am a fairly new member and the ******* matches is a turn off.
We should give the new and old venders a chance to prove themselves. If they sell bad products it will come out on the TDR.
We drive Dodges,some drive Fords,others drive Duramaxes.
They all get us from point a to point b. Some just faster
I disagree with the last statement of your argument. Bill does not rely on a combination of lock-up and fluid coupling; he relies strictly upon fluid coupling. To quote Mr. Kondolay: “No, I cannot handle the power of the Dodge Cummins Diesel in lock up mode and for me to claim otherwise would be a lie”.
Well DBR,
To challenge you a little. You should re-read this thread again. DTT TC's do not rely strictly upon fluid coupling. They in fact have a lockup mechanism. The lockup mechanism works quite well. Its is a very strong lockup mechanism. And you can read a post started a while back by DPerry, where Bill states why he designed the TC to not lockup under WOT. And I dont recall it being because the lockup mechanism cant handle it.
There are times when the lockup mechanism can handle the power and times when it cant. I believe bills statements is because he knows there are times when it cant. And he does not tell people otherwise.
So if ATS believes that thier lockup mechanism can handle the power under "all" circumstances then that is great. You are correct, they will have to prove it. --
And I dont mean that as a flame, of all the TC vendors out there, with the information I have, I would give them my second choice. They still have their work to do to get to be #1.
Well DBR,
To challenge you a little. You should re-read this thread again. DTT TC's do not rely strictly upon fluid coupling. They in fact have a lockup mechanism. The lockup mechanism works quite well. Its is a very strong lockup mechanism. And you can read a post started a while back by DPerry, where Bill states why he designed the TC to not lockup under WOT. And I dont recall it being because the lockup mechanism cant handle it.
There are times when the lockup mechanism can handle the power and times when it cant. I believe bills statements is because he knows there are times when it cant. And he does not tell people otherwise.
So if ATS believes that thier lockup mechanism can handle the power under "all" circumstances then that is great. You are correct, they will have to prove it. --
And I dont mean that as a flame, of all the TC vendors out there, with the information I have, I would give them my second choice. They still have their work to do to get to be #1.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
