New Member, Needs Help!

[DonTX]

Jargon

I don't seem to have an ISB, whatever that is, not mentioned in my manuals. That might be the same as a KSB, mine don't have one of these either.

There IS a wire that is disconnected in the engine compartment, I have not been able to decide what that originally went to. I am suspecting some sort of water in fuel sensor that is no longer on the engine.

I am going to trace that other wire from the stop solenoid, my book shows such a setup, the wire going to an IMT, Intake Manifold Temperature switch. and then on to the KSB. With no KSB, not sure where that wire goes to. I am off to search for a banjo bolt!

 

[bgilbert]

Maybe you have a remote KSB. But lets not get into that.



If you can't find another banjo bolt new or the Houdini one, I can look up the Cummins part number or PM me your address and I'll throw one in an envelope and send it to ya.



Heck forget that, I'm on my way and I'm gonna pull that silly solenoid to stop this insanity:-laf!!!

 

[DonTX]

Now There is a True Prince In Shining Armor

Thanks so much BGilbert, you are tops! Looked and looked, darned bolt made a run for the border I guess.

Went over and cranked on it yesterday, no start even with a pump full of 30wt oil, Marvel Mystery Oil, and diesel. Ran all over the Valley for the Banjo bolt, down here they just don't speak Cummins at all, even the Dodge dealers don't have them. Maybe there is a name in spanish that works for banjo bolt. One diesel service place even chewed my butt for being such a klutz and losing the thing in the first place, said if they have a mechanic that is that stupid, they fire him on the spot! Even accused me of dropping it down the injector hole! Made me feel bad and did not do my ego any good.

Next is the stop solenoid, then the pump goes for an overhaul. I still have a mental block about pulling the pump, without some assurance that it is actually bad and I am not just fighting something simple.

Does Cummins have a "build sheet" for these engines that tells what they left the factory with, like KSB, ISB, IMT and the rest of the alphabet soup? How about wiring diagrams for the particular customer spec nr?

 

[DonTX]

Oil Pressure Guessing Game

Does anybody have any clues to this photo? Obviously the can thing is the oil pressure sender, but the other two are a mystery to me. Could one of them be a switch that allows no fuel until oil pressure is present maybe?

 

[JLEONARD]

The CPL number and serial number will nail down exactly all the parts that went into your engine.

If your local Cummins guys can't find parts from that, then YOU should fire them for being that stupid. :-laf

Jay

 

[JLEONARD]

Could one of them be a switch that allows no fuel until oil pressure is present maybe?

Yes that's a possibility... but I'm thinking that would be something that the vehicle manufacturer put there... not Cummins.

Just jump them and see what happens.

Jay

 

[Paychk]

Easier yet throw a voltmeter on the fuel solenoid with the key in the run position it should have voltage.

 

[DonTX]

Yeah, I will do that, just wish I knew what they were doing. Part of my problem is that the maker of this outfit, Executive Industries, only existed a few years, and it appears NOBODY has kept a wiring diagram, so in addition to figuring out Cummins, I also have to figure out their wiring, some of which is not the best engineered, and re do it if needed. Just can't think of what else would be oil pressure dependant. On an aircraft, it would be the Hobbs meter, but I don't have one on here.

 

[McLaughlin]

Don, any idea where the third wire in the picture goes? Looks like one lead is some type of oil supply, another is the oil pressure sender, and you asked if one of the others goes to a fuel cut off, but the third? If you have a oil temp gauge I guess it could feed that.

 

[cojhl2]

Well you know how absolutely 100% convinced I was that the injectors were at fault!! Well here I am again,, Its the Pump!!



Remember Don initially you had fuel at a cracked injector line during cranking? That means oil pressure cutoff etc cant be an issue.



What this means to me is that the pump cannot build enough pressure at cranking speed to overcome the bias of the injectors. Still hard to believe about a Bosch pump tho.



Isn't there a way to check the pressure at the injectors? It would take a diesel shop to have the correct equipment.

 

[DonTX]

Oil temp, hmm. Sounded good, but out at the end of a closed pipe? No temp would ever hardly get out to that point. The more I think about it, the more blood starts running out my ears!

cojhl2: Yep, sure looking pump like for sure. I am also convinced that if the stop solenoid was faulty, I would not get all that fuel at the injectors when cranking. I am going to speak with a couple of injector overhaul places, it seems to me that there should be something like a pressure gauge or some sort of "on the engine" testing that could be done. The only logic I can see now is that somehow the pump got rusted from sitting from the water present in the diesel. Totally enclosed, that would not seem to be possible though, and with three water traps on the fuel line, not too likely. The pro's tell me that the pump will not rust unless you have some air present, and there is none inside the pump! Although it sounds like it is cranking fast enough, perhaps a tach to check cranking speed would be in order as well. Still grasping for straws, something inside the pump may be stuck as well I guess.

Hey, does that look like a KSB thing in this photo to someone that has one (lower right hand corder of photo, pump is in background)? I cannot see it except by dumping the camera down there and shooting blind.

 

[1stgen4evr]

"What this means to me is that the pump cannot build enough pressure at cranking speed to overcome the bias of the injectors. Still hard to believe about a Bosch pump tho.



Isn't there a way to check the pressure at the injectors? It would take a diesel shop to have the correct equipment. "



Boy this is one intriguing thread. While we can not get our hands on the problem, we can imagine all sorts of possible things.



Since you have had the injectors out, you can apparently get to them albeit with some difficulty. Pull the easiest one and carefully lift the line so you can reattach the injector and spin the motor over to see if the pump is pushing the fuel with enough pressure to crack the injector. While a pump shop might do something more elaborate, that is the substance of the test,-- will it push fuel through the injector. You would want to remove a bracket back on the injector line so as not to actually bend the line. I have seen the lines bent out of the way by other mechanics but I never do that.



If all the while you are cranking, there is fuel going into the cylinder, you should have one huge fog when it does fire up. Since the ether will make the engine fire up, all that you have reported leads me to think that the pump is at fault and the ether only brings the speed up to the point that adequate pressure results.



And again, good luck



James

 

[DonTX]

Your post exudes pure logic, for sure. Since there is never a fog upon starting, we must assume that there is no fuel getting past the injectors, i. e. , the pump is not pumping (at all, or with enough pressure).

I think I will try the injector in a jar trick, can one see the spray clearly (if it is there)? If it sprays in a glass, that still don't mean it will spray under the high compression condition in the cylinder, right?

Now for the logic that don't seem to apply, NO batch of readers have said "Oh yeah, VE44 pumps fail badly at 40k miles or less all the time, most even earlier than that. Pump is shot". With 18 years of experience out there with this setup, looks like someone would have experienced such failure. Even the injector repair places are quick to say it is "worn badly", until I explain it has 40k on it, then even they are at a loss. That allows clinging to the possibility that it is something more simple I guess. .

On this rainy afternoon, I am reading up in the manuals I have on how to remove the pump. Anybody that has done it care to give some tidbits of knowledge along those lines? I have never pulled one before.

 

[PSchwering]

Don,

Very intersting thread. I Don't know much about the VE fuel pumps, but you were asking about various parts. I have a copy of CEPC(electronic parts catalog) on my computer. If you will post/PM your engine serial number, I can look at a breakdown of what parts were installed on the engine at the factory, if you want. P.

 

[bgilbert]

Don, I would assume that sender in the lower right corner is for oil pressure. Thats about where it is on the Dodge app. Do I have to come down there and pull that solenoid??!! Solenoid first then pump removal.

 

[JLEONARD]

Don you will SURELY see the spray ... may look more like a mist.

Don't worry about the compression in the cyl stopping an injector spray... . the fuel is under a lot of pressure... so BE CAREFUL.



Bill... get on your horse and yank that solenoid!!! :-laf :-laf

(Some guys will do anything for a chance to burn up some #2)

 

[DonTX]

PSchwering: I PM'd you as well, here are the numbers:

The numbers from the data plate are as follows:

Date of Mfg: 08/21/87

Cust Spec: 38072

Engine Serial No: 44214125



jleonard: One would surely think someone would saddle up and ride down just to enjoy the citrus and good weather, if not to help a poor soul out! :-laf

 

[rlyons]

The items you have in the picture look to me like what is on a lot of older bigger equipment. One is the oil pressure sender to a gauge, one looks to be a pressure sender to a light and the one with the two wires is a low pressure shut off switch something like is on air conditioning systems to shut down the A/C if you lose freon. A lot of the older diesels had an override button on the dash to allow it to start in the case of a low oil pressure shut down. You pressed the button to start it and then drive it off the road. I remember an old GMC I had you had to press the button while cranking and then release it when oil pressure built up. The switches you have there look to me to be a low oil pressure shut down to shut down the engine in case of an oil leak or pressure drop. I would unplug and jump the one with two wires and see if it starts. The others are pressure sending units. I would bet you either have an oil pressure light and a pressure gauge on your dash or you have a remote oil pressure gauge in the engine compartment. The low pressure shut down switch would be wired to a fuel shut off somewhere in the system or the shut down solenoid on the pump. Like I said the old diesel big trucks and all off road equipment used them so it would shut down if oil pressure dropped when you were not in the vehicle or on the equipment. Good luck.

 

[1stgen4evr]

, that still don't mean it will spray under the high compression condition in the cylinder, right?



Compression is around 17 atmospheric.

Injection is 200+ atmospheric.

Hardly any doubt that the fuel will squirt under compression if the pump pushes it.



Rlyon, you may be on to something. If those sensors/switches block the fuel solonoid until oil pressure comes up, then there may be a totally different problem here.



Don, I have not read every last one of the post here (couldn't remember them all anyway). Just to be sure, you have run the start test with a KNOWN voltage jumper to the solonoid?





As Jay mentions "the fuel is under a lot of pressure... so BE CAREFUL". The pressure is more than adequate to push into your flesh. Don't have any body part near the injector when testing.





"NO batch of readers have said "Oh yeah, VE44 pumps fail badly at 40k miles or less all the time, most even earlier than that. Pump is shot". With 18 years of experience out there with this setup, looks like someone would have experienced such failure. Even the injector repair places are quick to say it is "worn badly", until I explain it has 40k on it, then even they are at a loss. That allows clinging to the possibility that it is something more simple I guess. . "



And that is because the VE IS a very reliable pump. I would say that you are dealing with something that isn't at all related to the mileage. Rather time and circumstance that for all of us is unknown. You did say that there was trash on one of the filters. IF one grain of sand got to the plunger and barrel, it would kill it. There are no seals on the plunger. It is just so precisely fitted that the fuel won't leak by. Well I am sure some escapes but almost none. The most insignificant insult to the integrity of the precision fit is enough to ruin the function.



As bad as it is, the pump shop will be able to tell you exactly what is wrong (if they are reliable and not shysters that will shoot you a line. This is an instance where you want to have someone with unimpeachable integrity do the work. And you can bet the camper Cummins and all that there are those who will take advantage of you.



There is a guy in Tifton Georgia that I trust that much. Jerry Shiver of Shiver diesel service.



James

 

[Paychk]

Semi-off topic



Don it looks like Executive Industries Motorhome, was absorbed by Monaco Coach, they may be able to provide you with owners & maintenance manuals for your motor home.



Contact -- email address removed -- to inquire about manuals