New 'stroke @ work

[jarsong]

dang, I didn't mean to light the brush fire!!! LOL!



Forrest

Sorry folks about the rant. I just know how much of MY time is taken away from my family to do nothing more that pay for taxes is all. I want a rebate.

:{

jarsong

 

[gds3076]

well said ! I agree 100%



I have seen rigs out there that look **** poor and it's a total reflection on that station and dept. I understand that there are budgets to follow but have little pride in your equipment. Ya know.

 

[Truckie]

"What exactly is the justification for the alcola's?"



The ALCOA's do shave some of the weight off of a very heavy rig that is driven very hard. They also help disipate some heat from the tires. And last but not least, They look good.







Frankly, the added cost of the Alcoa's is only a tiny fraction of the total cost of a new fire truck.

jarsong I don't see what your all bent out of shape about you don't even live in California according to what you have posted for your location. Like Big E said when you order a new fire rig they come with the Alcoa's on them already, and if you want steel or something different than you have to order it and many times they classify it as a special order and you will pay more fore changing the truck, because the Alcoa's are factory speced equipment.

Our lives are on the line as it is when were out at a call, and now you want to jeopardize our safety with our equipment. Your crazy, the wheels do shave off the weight on a heavy vehicle and yes they do dissipate the heat from the brakes.

If you want to BIT*H about California and there taxes than go to the political forum we have and complain there.

IM done.



Big E there some good looking rigs your department got there.

Keep up the good work.



MIKE

 

[TGreschuk]

If every government agency took as much pride and care of their equipment as the fire department did, all of our tax dollars would go down. Ever seen a bureaucrat driving a 10 year old car? Or the parks department driving a 20 year old pickup? Not likely, the drive the crap out of them, never maintain them and just buy new ones every 4 years. On the other hand, the firefighters look after their vehicles like they are their own, and this probably doubles their life expectancy. If adding Alcoa's and flake paint encourages pride, and proper maintenance while doubling the vehicles lifespan by adding an additional 1-5% cost of the vehicle, then lets put fancy wheels on every government vehicle and we will reduce all of our taxes. I'm no accountant but it seems like money well spent to me.



Trent

 

[ppfd]

Yep that's your tax dollars hard at work. What exactly is the justification for the alcola's? This kind of stuff pisses me off. :-{} Sorry, but Since I'm tax poor this just rubs me wrong... Thought the big ole state of CA. was in a buget crisis? I'm done now.

jarsong

Jar, I see you are from the state of of Washington, why do you care what the buy in Ca? I to am a Firefighter so this stuff gets to me. As far as Aluminun vs. Steel I am no mechanic so I will say that first so any experts correct me. My dept. found them to be a savings to the "tax payers" Less wieght, less maintenance, desipates heat faster, both a safety, I would find Al. wheels cheaper than paying for a new $350,000 Truck that could not stop or lawsuits from the familes of 4 dead FF's. Maintenance no painting, and no hubcaps. I guess I am biased about public safety, but it is "taxpayers" like you that always want to cut taxes, then cry when it takes "too long" for Police, Fire or EMS" to get to your residence. Also pricing on Alcoa's is not that bad after spending $800,000 on a 95 Ft' tower like my city taxpayers did so I could have the best equipment possible to protect them and thier familes and property. Really it's like anything you have to bargin for them. Have the wheels thrown or take your taxpayer funded bid somewhere else! Peace Jar!

 

[Mactruck]

I hate jumping on the RANT bandwagon but here it goes:

Our Fire Dept's two main attack engines are a 1978 and 1968 MACK's. They both have been refurbed once and this was done to save taxpayers money.

We had a 1980 International rescue which we just replaced with a new one. WHY??? Did we replace a newer piece of apparatus instead of replacing our 1968 engine?

Because in 1980 we speced out a beautiful rescue which was cut down by our Town Govt to go with a GASSER model to save money. This Pig couldn't get out of it's own way! This was done to save money? Yeah right.



On a side note about refurbing engines. This 1968 Engine we have, Well the flywheel is cracked and we searched for 6 weeks to find a replacement - TO NO AVAIL. So we have a nice looking refurbed 35 year old engine we can't find parts for.



Next time you tell your dept. to make due with what you've got ask yourself this question.



When was the last time you saw any civil servant (besides fire) driving anything over 20 years old. Police have their cars replaced every 2-3 years. Heck your mayor probably is driving around in a one year old vehicle. Heck I've seen newer dump trucks and garbage trucks in town than firetrucks.



When we get a vehicle we take meticulus care of it because we don't know when we will get a new one. You think police and DOT employees think like that! Doubt it.

 

[smartineau]

Like Big E said when you order a new fire rig they come with the Alcoa's on them already, and if you want steel or something different than you have to order it and many times they classify it as a special order and you will pay more fore changing the truck, because the Alcoa's are factory speced equipment.





Big E there some good looking rigs your department got there.

Keep up the good work.



MIKE[/QUOTE]



As mentioned above, steel wheels would cost more, at least they did on our Pierce Quantums. Our old chief specced out steel wheels (rear, front aluminium) because he thought the public would perceive aluminium wheels as a waste. So we paid extra money for steel wheels that are not as strong do not dissapate heat as well, and cost the taxpayers more money. Our mechanic tried to talk the old chief out of it but it did not work. At least our new chief knows that we need to get the best and safest equipment that we can afford.



steve

 

[jarsong]

This is the rig it replaced. This is a '96, auto with a commiefornia egr engine. It's been run hard. Been through several sets of front brakes, a couple of transmission rebuilds, got rearended on the freeway amongst other things.



In it's defense, it is loaded down to its gvwr. The engine still runs good tho.



It will be going in reserve, to cover for the Fords when they break down.

This is the problem. "In it's defense, it is loaded down to its gvwr. The engine still runs good tho".



So what exactly doesn't work on this truck that is putting saftey of people at risk or could justify spwnding on a new one to have an extra? Almost sould like they just got a wild hair to get a new one if you ask me. How many miles are on it, be truthful here? All all your heat disappation talk is nonsense. This isn't on a race track for 500 miles straight.

jarsong

 

[ezcurra]

All these years of driving with stamped steel rims and nobody told me I was in great danger! Anyone having brake fade due to overheating, is not driving right, it's not the thermal conductivity of the rims.

 

[Big E]

The Dodge looks good in that picture, but if you saw it in person, and actually drove it, you could see that it has had a hard life. It has 60000 miles on it. When it was first line it was loaded down to it's gvrw. That was with nobody in it. We have since taken some of the equipment off. I don't think anyone will dispute that the brakes on the '96 trucks leave a lot to be desired. We cover a large area that includes curvy mountainous roads and steep grades, as well as large interstate freeway that most people drive in excess of 75 mph. When lives are on the line, we have to drive hard, and drive fast. We are not pulling the 'ole RV up to the campground. As I mentioned before, this rig has gone through several sets of brakes, and a couple of transmissions. When it broke down, we would have to replace it with one of our older '80s Fords. These also are very tired and ready for retirement.



At the time, The Dodge was the best option available.



The 550 chassis is more suited to the job. It carries 50 more gallons of water, and is still well below its gvrw. When you step on the brakes, it actually stops quickly. When you are starting out on a steep grade, it actually starts moving, instead of sitting there and burning up the transmission. So far it has been reliable. I hope it stays that way.

I do wish it had a Cummins tho.



There also is a little thing called liability. If we injured or killed someone in an accident, and some sharp personal injury attorney found out that we were driving worn out overloaded apparatus. How much money do you think that would cost the taxpayers? I bet it would buy a whole lot of fancy aluminum wheels.

 

[jarsong]

Since the whole reason for getting a Diesel is longevity, 60K is way to soon, even if they are hard miles. We have had several logging crumbies that go several hundred thoudand miles in conditions that rarely involve pavement. Yes they have liability as well. I think this is BS and that NOT YOU but your head honcho just ripped off your tax payers and it about hi time americans do something about it by exposing this crap. The fleecing of america as I call it. One could even argue that your local health services employee saves more lives inspecting restaraunts for food violations than get burned up in fires. Don't get me wrong. I just rather have the horrific amount of money that was just spent on this powerstroke spent on Personal wages, training and such... . I sure the person making the call on this truck is sitting fat and happy though. Let me guess, he probably has ANOTHER powerstroke Dept rig that he drives home every night. It's probably a crew cab and all the junk you can think of. Pilot truck? DO you not think that the family that goes over the rock mountains or drive to work each day put their lives on the line? Gee, my truck will need a brake job in the next 2 years, I think I'm getting a new truck. Logical? No.

jarsong

 

[Big E]

First off, no the "head honcho" does not drive a powerstroke.



Secondly, while the engine still runs good. The rest of the truck is tired and unreliable. The chassis is not up to the job that we ask it to do. It is still fine for filling in occasionally when the first line rig is down. But being used on a daily basis, it becomes an increasing liability. We, as "professionals", are held to a higher standard. Trial lawyers know that public agencies have deep pockets. You want to talk about the "fleecing of America". Take a look at all the frivolous lawsuits that not only increase your taxes, but increase the prices of everything you buy.



You asked for justification. I tried to give it. Somehow I don't think anything I say will change your mind, so I won't even try anymore. What I will say, is that our department has the overwhelming support of the people we serve. If we didn't, we would not have the equipment that we do.

 

[MMiller]

Too bad this harmless starting thread went wrong. I see both sides. I also drive a company truck. The first was overwhelmed by the task at hand, I put up with it and maintianed it and kept it clean. About three years later I have a brand spanking new service truck in my yard. And it was specd much better. Do I deserve it? Well some might not think so because I have been in the field for only three years, but I will maintain this truck the same, becuase it will probably be the last new one I get. I wish my truck would have got the aluminuim wheels, but would rather had air ride suspension and air brakes. In my instance I got none. Oh well it works alot better then the last one.



Big E-You have a nice looking set of trucks on your crew, I am glad you guys are taking care of them. I like the wheels too. No complaints here. Thanks for posting.



Michael

 

[ppfd]

What some people don't know is that these small trucks are called "mini pumpers" by manufactuers and FF's alike. These trucks were great when the concept came about back in the 1970's. Quick rapid water, tools and FF's to a scene. Like I said I am no mechanic but common sense tells us that a 1 ton chassis 3500, 350, etc. is already over loaded by the time you add add the fire body even if it is of light wieght material. A fire pump, a water tank usually a 250 to 350 tank. Water weighs close to 8 pounds a gallon, my calculator tells me thats 2000 to 2800 pounds. Now add equipment and fire hose. These trucks are overloaded! Thats where an F 550 comes in, these are the perfect mini pumps! As for the Powerstoke, without starting another debate these engines are Paramedic proof! I know as this is my main job function. This is why Ford has 99% of the Ambulance market. Jar, I am with you on paying too much in taxes. I live in West Virginia one of the most taxed states in the union. But ask yourself what would I pay to protect my family? These are taxes I don't mind paying. I could care less if the truck arrived on crawler tracks or alumminum wheels. Just as long as it gets there and takes care of my emergency.

 

[Paychk]

From some comments, a person could get the idea that California extends all the way to the Canadian border now.

 

[Truckie]

Secondly, while the engine still runs good. The rest of the truck is tired and unreliable. The chassis is not up to the job that we ask it to do. It is still fine for filling in occasionally when the first line rig is down. But being used on a daily basis, it becomes an increasing liability. We, as "professionals", are held to a higher standard. Trial lawyers know that public agencies have deep pockets. You want to talk about the "fleecing of America". Take a look at all the frivolous lawsuits that not only increase your taxes, but increase the prices of everything you buy.



You asked for justification. I tried to give it. Somehow I don't think anything I say will change your mind, so I won't even try anymore. What I will say, is that our department has the overwhelming support of the people we serve. If we didn't, we would not have the equipment that we do.

You asked for justification and got it several times here from different people. Scenic you don't believe us about the wheels being factory equipment, I see Big E is correct no matter what any of us say there is no changing you mind about the situation. From what I gather you are all bent out of shape about this because you don't have a set for you ride.

It seems you can"t relate to the fact that it is all about safety and a matter of replacement. The city lawyers and insurance companies can also tell you when to replace a front line piece of equipment. It is much cheaper to do this than to pay out hundreds of thousands or mabe even millions in a law suite.

It seems you are the type of person to step over a quater and pick up two dimes for the way you are thinking.





MIKE

 

[Ncostello]

His F550 is a skid unit quick response. A true mini pumper has a midship chassis mounted pump either ran by pto provisions or direct transfer case drivelines. They will have traditional pump panels and steamer inlets. True mini pumpers used to be popular like mentioned but really are no longer the "thing". They were too small to be effective. Pierce love to build them all day long on Dodge 1 ton chassis. Todays skid units are lighter and offer more fire fighting capability with add ons like Compressed Air Foam systems. They are also much cheaper to build. Our neighboring department just bought a new F550 Danko quick attack/brush. Its 6. 0 already is suffering from romps and rolling idle. They don't notice it but I did. I didn't bother telling them there is a future problem hiding under the hood. I didn't have the heart to tell them their brand new rig probably don't have the most reliable engine made. But the F550 is the ONLY truck of its kind.



Also... Alcoa wheels are NOT standard equipment from apparatus manufacturers. Accuride or other steel wheels are standard. You can always request the Alcoas be dropped for savings. They are simply included in the specs for the truck by the sales folks who are always looking to get as much money from a department as they can and still win the bid. Most don't argue about it as long as they can afford it. What department don't want a nice looking truck? I know I spec'd Alcoas on our KME on purpose for many of the mentioned reasons. Our town council expected us to uphold the image of good looking trucks. Kids like pretty trucks when we take them to fire prevention demos. They remember them and our message. People take pride in nice equipment and will actually not argue too much when they have to wash a beautiful truck.



Alcoas are not that expensive. Many choose REAL WHEELS covers which are just about as expensive. They look bad I think and are harder to keep clean as they trap dust underneath.



From what I've dealt with... and from the dozens of trade shows I've been to... if you cant afford a $250,000 pumper go ahead and cut all the aluminum wheels, diamond tread, chrome bell, flashy stripes and strobe lights. In the end you still wont be able to afford it cause cuts on stuff like that reduce it little overall.



The only way to save big bucks on a fire engine is to cut big compartments, big pumps and big tanks. Thats not too popular among firefighters.



This time around we bought a truck with a sole source chassis/body provider. It can be refurbished in 15 years for way less than the cost of a new one.



And finally to prove our department is concerned about savings... our 2004 medical rescue truck (F550 4x4) was ordered with a V10. We really didn't need a diesel to carry medical equipment and jaws of life around town. We are pleased with its power and performance. Todays gassers are not those of carb/smog pumped engines of days gone by.

 

[jarsong]

Too bad this harmless starting thread went wrong. I see both sides. I also drive a company truck. The first was overwhelmed by the task at hand, I put up with it and maintianed it and kept it clean. About three years later I have a brand spanking new service truck in my yard. And it was specd much better. Do I deserve it? Well some might not think so because I have been in the field for only three years, but I will maintain this truck the same, becuase it will probably be the last new one I get. I wish my truck would have got the aluminuim wheels, but would rather had air ride suspension and air brakes. In my instance I got none. Oh well it works alot better then the last one.



Big E-You have a nice looking set of trucks on your crew, I am glad you guys are taking care of them. I like the wheels too. No complaints here. Thanks for posting.



Michael

Exactly. Being a private company that actually has to strictly manage a budget if they bought you a truck lined in gold I would think that is great. Oo. Don't care if you'd been there 3 days. That would just mean your successful!

Jarsong

 

[ndurbin]

On the 96, how did they get the mirrors extended like that? I have my eye on a set of the new flip-up mirrors but if I can extend my stock chrome mrriors like that it might save me some money.



Thanks

Nathan

 

[Big E]

The arms to the mirrors were cut and extended with similar stainless stock. If you look closely, you can also see the gas strut that was added to stabilize the mirror while still allowing it to be folded in.