NYC vs Iraq

[CWebster]

http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/doh/pdf/vs/2001sum.pdf



Over 60, 000 deaths in New York city. Over 800 deaths classified as homicide only... . and there is NO WAR! How many Americans killed since this war started? Over 8 million people in NYC, over 22 million people in Iraq. 321 sq. miles of land area in NYC, 165,000 sq. miles of land area in Iraq. So our military is occupying a larger area, with a greater population, with less casualties than NYC???? And... I repeat... there is NO WAR in NYC!!!! How 'bout LA? Or Miami? Or the capital Washington D. C. ? Look up the stats, it will put this "War" into better perspective. This administration has done an incredible job of managing this war in Iraq, and this war on terrorism. Since 9/11 there have been NO acts of terrorism on our soil, even though we have been told repeatedly "we will strike again, Infidels!!". Everybody knows where the heart of Al Quaeda and terrorism lies... in the Middle East... . where Bush put Hundreds of Thousands of our troops!!!!! How is this the wrong strategy? What could have been done differently? A couple of more years of "talks", or "inspections", or what ... buy them off? NO, you wanted a fight, you got a fight. People forget that this is for real, that we have to fight everyday against those that wish to kill us (americans). Watch the footage of 9/11... the UN-EDITED footage... and think of where we might be if we just shrugged it off like the previous admin. I would much rather play offense on their end of the field than play defense on my end of the field.



Chris Webster

 

[Rosco]

Well said.

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by CWebster

I would much rather play offense on their end of the field than play defense on my end of the field.

Yep, that about sums it up for me.



Rusty

 

[NETim]

Persactly!

No matter how stupid your believe Pres Bush to be (and there seems to be no limit to what some believe), the man has access to much, much more intel about current world affairs than any one of us, including those who deride him as "stupid. "



I don't know how many of you watched CBS' documentary about 9/11 that aired a few months after it happened. I WILL NEVER FORGET the sound of human bodies slamming into the pavement outside the lobby of those towers while the rescue service teams occupied the towers. It will haunt me forever.



Yeah, I know we are constantly informed by those with superior intel sources (strangely available to only those predisposed to dislike Pres Bush) that there is/was no connection between Saddam and Al Queda. We are constantly told that Saddam kept them in check in Iraq. Yep. You bet.



The 727 fuselage at Salmon Pak didn't exist. Saddam did not give $25K to the families of suicide bombers. Yeah right.



We are fighting WWIII. It's just that some of us haven't caught on yet.



Stay the course W! Stay the course!



Tim

 

[Champane Flight]

It OK then?

Its Ok to lose a young man or woman a day in a country thousands of miles away so you guys can crow about your President and FEEL safer. Which you are not. Maybe you with all the reasons need to sign up?



Not ONE of the hijackers responsible for 9/11 were from Iraq, ever visited Iraq, or were in any way associated with Iraq. So here we are justifying the deaths of our finest by comparing them to the gang bangers in NYC? Give me a break.

 

[dresslered]

the man has access to much, much more intel about current world affairs than any one of us

Thank you! He really does and just be glad that you don't have to make the tough decisions that he does!

 

[Doc Tinker]

One thing we don't hear much about is how many Iraqi citizens are murdered by their own people. It might be interesting to compare that with New York's per capita figures.



Doc

 

[Steve M]

Things are so much worse there than they are there? And our cowboy has sent our troops over there to try and force them to be more like us? I don't see the logic.

We have a drug war that's been going on for quite a while. We also have our very own home grown terrorists. They are taught from a very young age to hate people because of the color of their skin or because they're of a different faith or no faith at all. In some cases even because of the state a person was born in. Some are very well organized on a national level and others are small gangs who terrorize on a more local level. Between the Klan, the Uhurus, gangsters, and some overly zealous religious nuts, we have a pretty good crop of terrorists right here in the good ol' USA. The death toll in NYC is just a tidbit.

 

[skobylenski]

Ask yourself this - are you better off now than you were 4 years ago? Who just sent $87 billion to fund the war? Did you know that with that same $87 billion, EVERY person in the United States could have health coverage? Think about that. Do you have adequate health coverage?



By the way, Dubya doesn't make the decisions, his handlers do, and he just gets up on the podium and murders their speeches brutally. Bush just wanted to follow in his father footsteps - he wanted to finish what his father started, he wanted his own war to his name.



Don't forget how many times we were lied to by this president about things that he THOUGHT were there. This isn't about New York and 9/11 any more, it's about something that we should never have started. Bush just THOUGHT he was doing the right thing by policing the world, which is NOT the job of America. If the smaller nations want our help, they need to ask for it - we don't have to be the supreme rulers of the world just because we can. That's abuse of power.



Have a nice day.

 

[NETim]

CF, I'm sorry to hear that you don't feel safer, but that's your opinion and it's only your opinion. We have not suffered another attack on our home soil since Bush took action. I feel safer anyway. True, it's only my opinion but again no Al Queda twerps have blown anything up here lately, have they?

And you're right, none of the 9/11 terrorists came from Iraq. Most of 'em were Saudis. Regardless, Saddam was a bad, bad boy and he would have eventually done us harm. We could not afford to allow him to acquire nukes and other nasty stuff. International boundaries are meaningless in this war.

Saddam supported terrorists. His lieutenants met with Al Queda operatives. We declared war on terrorists and those who support him. The fact we're in Iraq put teeth in the words.

I am sorry about the loss of lives in Iraq, both American and Iraqi, but as they say, war is hell, but Freedom isn't free. I remain unconvinced that we as a country should act as a pinata for every two bit bully on planet Earth who envies our freedom and wealth. I say send 'em to hell!

If you know a way to convince those who mean us harm to peacefully lay down their arms, please do so. But until then, I don't think those people can be reasoned with and therefore, are in line to get their butts kicked.

The fact that we cut and ran in Somalia encouraged the militant Islamists to no end and is one of the reasons we're in this mess right now. Had we stood our ground and showed these *******s that we weren't going to run would have made them rethink their cowardly plans IMHO.

Bush didn't start this damn war. He's just trying to win it. Had his foremost concern been his political career he would not have invaded Iraq. Too many downsides to it as we are now witnessing. All he had to do was to play it safe and let the UN call the shots. That would have provided him with a host of good, solid excuses for taking no further military action and Saddam and the boys would have continued to grow stronger, which is what many apparently wanted???

November 2004 will determine how the rest of the century plays out. Your side has an opportunity to turn W out. You're not going to do it though by insulting W's intelligence and declaring your dislike for the man. The average American is brighter than the DNC realizes. Give us facts, not vitriol.

Haven't you guys noticed by now this tactic is not playing well? I suggest you guys work on explaining to us non believers in the Liberal way how much better off we'll be with one of the 9 dwarves in charge.

Strange nobody on the Left has tried this already.

Tim

 

[skobylenski]

Originally posted by NETim

Bush didn't start this damn war.

Then who did, may I ask? And don't tell me the people of the Middle-East did, because the last time I checked, they didn't decide to declare war on us.



Also, Bush has done quite a lot to get himself ousted in 2004, mainly this damn war.

 

[NETim]

You're joking right? Who flew the planes into the trade towers? Who blew a big hole in the USS Cole? Who set off a truck bomb underneath the trade towers? We've been at war long before W took office. We just lacked the leadership to do anything about it.

Ti

 

[NETim]

Oh Brother! Please... don't anybody ask me why I despise Liberalism so. Man oh man! This is sad.

Tim

 

[skobylenski]

Each of these events was a specific group of TERRORISTS, not the ENTIRE country of Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any other Middle-East country for that matter. What we're doing now is killing men, womem, children, cats, dogs, you name it, if it moves we kill it.



Why the hell are we killing everyone when we 1) have our own problems (national debt) and 2) don't even know who the hell we're really after? We should never have done this in the first place. I don't care if we "needed" to retaliate after 9/11, Iraq was NEVER part of 9/11. That's a completely different can of worms.



No, we didn't lack the leadership to do anything about it, we caught the responsible parties for these acts of terrorism (granted, Saddam is still on the loose, but that's different). We did what was necessary at the time, and now we've gone into complete overkill mode.



Wake up and smell the Democracy.

 

[NETim]

Hmmm... . so would the national debt and national health care and prescription drugs matter much if a dirty nuke were to go off in say... downtown Chicago? LA? NY? I'd wager that such an event would pretty much ruin our day, if not our lives. Scary times, the rules have changed. We have to change with them.



Does anybody, ANYBODY here have access to better intel than the Bush admin? Isn't it possible that these guys are aware of far more than us average Joe's? Isn't it entirely possible that they cannot show all their cards at this point in time, however much they'd like to?



George W spelled it all out very clearly months before we took on Iraq. Didn't he tell the world that countries that aid terrorists are our enemy? Didn't he say that we'd go to the ends of the earth to hunt these ******** down? Still Saddam did not comply. The ball-less UN was content to continue to do nothing but suck up US tax dollars. (which is about all they're good for) Why didn't the protester types implore Saddam to comply? Why wasn't the hatred directed at W aimed at Saddam?



I am not sure where this "killing everyone" biz is coming from. US armed forces are wasting Saddam loyalists in large numbers but I don't believe that constitutes "killing everyone", does it?



Isn't democracy in the Mid East a good thing? And a little capitalism never hurt anyone (Well if you're not a DNC hardliner anyways).



This is not vengeance. It never has been. This has been a cold, calculated campaign to destroy international terrorism. The terrorists won't go away with negotiation. That's a pipe dream.



And on a slightly different note, today the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled that giving financial support to terrorists is not a crime. Hmmm..... aren't these the same guys who claimed the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional? Sort of a Leftist notion, isn't it? Hmmm... sort makes me wonder if the American Left is still having trouble with target identification. As in, they're on the wrong side ... AGAIN!



Liberalism corrupts.



Tim

 

[Champane Flight]

Paranoid?

Paranoid,and knee jerk reaction comes to mind when I think of the retaliation Bush has taken. I gave him and his "crew" the benefit of a doubt on Afghanistan and even thought it was a proper move. Then comes Iraq, within a six month period he warns, and then invades.



With speech's claiming WMDs and even a threat of nuclear weapons being manufactured on Iraqi soil. These weapons were so prevalent and out in the open we should have found them on the first day in Iraq, yet here we are months after and still no evidence or findings.



So then in fine fashion, it was not WMDs we were after, it was terror, but only a few terrorists have been bagged in Iraq yet. Just Fedaydeen and ex Saddam loyalists. And where is Saddam and Osama (moving in now)? Yet the right wing still proclaim their leader is the greatest thing since white on rice.



Now the mission has changed, we did not go into Iraq to find and destroy the threat of terror or destroy WMDs, we went in to liberate the country of Iraq from a brutal dictator? The story changes every time something negative happens.



We are now locked into a war with our finest men and women dieing daily and they come up with "Over 800 deaths in NYC classified homicide" . Logic is something best practiced by the logical.



Do I live in fear? No not hardly, I have known fear, but that was a long time ago. I am sure though that this Iraqi war in NO way has diminished the threat of terror. Have you guys forgot the DC snipers in custody? Theres somebody in Ohio right now doing the same thing. I would not doubt if they were Muslim too. If Reid would have had a brain he would have detonated his shoe and terror would have another victory. These and other serious flaws in US security will show themselves in the future. The art of terror is to lull your victim into a false feeling of security, then strike. It is working in some of you.

 

[Steve M]

"Hmmm... . so would the national debt and national health care and prescription drugs matter much if a dirty nuke were to go off in say... downtown Chicago? LA? NY? I'd wager that such an event would pretty much ruin our day, if not our lives. Scary times, the rules have changed. We have to change with them. "



So now that we've beat the hornet's nest with a stick, we'll never get stung again? I don't think that method works.



"Does anybody, ANYBODY here have access to better intel than the Bush admin? Isn't it possible that these guys are aware of far more than us average Joe's? Isn't it entirely possible that they cannot show all their cards at this point in time, however much they'd like to? "



Nope. None of us has access to proof of W's alterior motive in this war on Iraq.



"George W spelled it all out very clearly months before we took on Iraq. Didn't he tell the world that countries that aid terrorists are our enemy? Didn't he say that we'd go to the ends of the earth to hunt these ******** down? Still Saddam did not comply. The ball-less UN was content to continue to do nothing but suck up US tax dollars. (which is about all they're good for) Why didn't the protester types implore Saddam to comply? Why wasn't the hatred directed at W aimed at Saddam? "



As long as "we're" footing the bill, I guess he has a free pass to attack any country he wants. If he had any clout with the UN at all, he might have persuaded the UN to back his invasion of Iraq and then the UN would have split the bill. That's how it works. Does anyone really "hate" W? Hate seems to be more of a right wing extremist value.



"I am not sure where this "killing everyone" biz is coming from. US armed forces are wasting Saddam loyalists in large numbers but I don't believe that constitutes "killing everyone", does it? "



There have been a few "Oops, uh oh... Ah that's too bad. Better their innocent than ours mistakes over there such as the ten year old boy whose intire family was killed and he's getting artificial arms attached to make it all better. He'll be forgot about in short order.



"Isn't democracy in the Mid East a good thing? And a little capitalism never hurt anyone (Well if you're not a DNC hardliner anyways). "



They don't understand democracy. They've been killing each other for thousands of years. All they understand is a dictator. They don't have enough self control to live in a democracy. Remember the guys who lived here and took flying lessons? They weren't impressed. They flew airliners into buildings killing themselves and others because God told them to. They're nuts.



"This is not vengeance. It never has been. This has been a cold, calculated campaign to destroy international terrorism. The terrorists won't go away with negotiation. That's a pipe dream. "



Bombing a country into submission will not destroy international terrorism either. This is also a pipe dream. The terrorists will simply re-locate.





"And on a slightly different note, today the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco ruled that giving financial support to terrorists is not a crime. Hmmm..... aren't these the same guys who claimed the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional? Sort of a Leftist notion, isn't it? Hmmm... sort makes me wonder if the American Left is still having trouble with target identification. As in, they're on the wrong side ... AGAIN! "





Unfortunately, if giving financial support to terrorists isn't a crime in the law books, no crime has been commited. It has to be a crime before it is commited to be criminal. That's what legislation is for. FWIW, I don't care if Under God is in the pledge or not. It wasn't in the pledge when it was written. Why was it changed to begin with? Those right wing extremists are always trying to cram their religion down our throats.



"Liberalism corrupts. "



Yet people have been killing each other in the name of religion for thousands of years.

 

[NETim]

Sorry CF, I still don't get it. What are we supposed to do? Bush and his admin are crucified for the Patriot Act (passed by the Senate 99-0) which is widely heralded as the death of individual freedom in this country, yet we have holes in our perimeter. And yes, we do have holes, but how do we patch them without setting off more *****in' about Ashcroft and Co? Bush can't win on this one, can he? (And let us not forget, the DNC is free at any time to propose fixes, but calling Bush stupid is all they seem to be able to muster. )

Remember the quotes posted many times previously which so nicely listed the many quotes from the Dem side of fence and their claims for the existence of WMD's in Iraq? Do we need to trot that out again to refresh your memory? It isn't only the Bush Admin that felt that WMD's existed in Iraq.
(And if they would have been found on the first day they would have been CIA plants. We all know that)

And if you listen to what Bush said in his infamous State of the Union speech, he wanted to shut down Saddam before he acquired WMD's. Or should we have waited until he had them? Not a pretty picture is it?

I do feel safer because the radicals that mean us harm are now engaged in fighting for their lives rather than plotting to take ours. The crackpot sniper types are nothing new under the sun and it's a stretch to link them to International terrorism IMHO. At present, the ones I'm aware of anyway, are acting independently and mindlessly. They'd be out there irrespective of the Iraq situation.

The terrorists will strike again make no mistake. But they would have done it anyway. The only difference is that they're now weaker and growing weaker every day. Sure they're standing in line to hate us but they've lived on hate all their lives cause that's all they have.


Let me guess, what would have been the prudent thing to do? Not invade Iraq for starters. OK, fine. Where does that leave us? We're in Afghanistan. A certain percentage of the Muslim world hates us, just like before. They stream into Afghanistan (like they are today) and do battle with US troops. US troops die unfortunately Just like today. We try to establish a democracy in Afghanistan, just like Iraq. It is difficult. Just like Iraq. (I'm having a difficult time understanding the difference. ) Hmmm... this is tough. Iraq, while not directly involved in 9/11, is very friendly with international terrorist types and is actively engaged in acquiring WMD's. They occupy a very strategic geographic location in the Middle East. Eliminating Saddam might bring otherwise reluctant allies on the war on terrorism. US troops on the border of Iran and Syria give pause to those nation's leaders and they wonder if plotting against the US is healthy. Many terrorists stream into Iraq to pick a fight with US forces and get badly shot up for their efforts.

Hmmm... it would seem to me anyway that there are some very sound military reasons to be Iraq if defeating terrorism is really the objective.

Yes, it is dangerous times, No one is saying different. I'm sure as hell not. I feel safer though knowing that we're actually doing something rather than waiting for the bloated and very cowardly UN bureaucracy to actually act.

Often held up as a role model for nations, the UN cuts and runs when the fur flies.

Which is exactly what the terrroists desire.

Liberalism corrupts.

Tim

 

[Steve M]

CF,

Saddam is probably living in Palm Beach safe and sound in Rush Limbaugh's gated community. Osama is probably in NYC living in a townhouse with his sister. And the WMD are probably hidden in the hills of Alabama waiting for the perfect opportunity. All the while the oil tycoon cowboy is shootin' up the middle east. Or at least he sent the troops in to do it for him. Yep... I feel much safer now.

 

[NETim]

Now, Steve the 9th Circuit Court ruled on a portion of the Patriot Act, which is now part of the law of land. Would they rule on it if it was not already a law? They ruled it Unconstitutional. Now, I ask you, whose side is this bunch on?

Somewhere, somebody hates W. I guarantee you that. If you pay any attention to current events, the "haters" are never far from the spotlight. And it's not solely a "right wing extremist" characteristic to hate. Psst... your slip is showing. Some right wing extremists hate just as some left wing extremists hate. Since when does the Left own the moral high ground? Ol' Joe Stalin was about as left as one can get yet the old feller managed to kill a bunch of people. Jews, Slavs, you name it. Yeah, I think he hated.

So if swatting hornet's nests doesn't work, what does? Are we supposed to hide in the corner and hope no one hurts us? Are we supposed to beg and buy our existence from the bullies?

If a bad ass bunch of bikers came into town and one of them killed a citizen, are supposed to appease the gang or apprehend the killer? Aren't we potentially swatting hornet's nests in this scenario? Best to run and hide, ain't it? Jeez...

Do we let the terrorists push us around?

Collateral damage? What's new about that? We've gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid that. Are you suggesting we have willingly killed innocents? Are you suggesting we wanted collateral damage? Why aren't you criticizing Hussein's regime for placing military targets in close proximity to civilians? Let me hear you publicly denounce Saddam's policy of placing his citizens in harm's way.

And when the terrorists relocate, we'll kill 'em there. Pretty soon there will no place left to hide.

Nobody said this would be easy. In fact, W has told us repeatedly that the path would be long and difficult.

This ain't a Rambo movie.

Liberlism corrupts.

Tim