NYC vs Iraq

[skobylenski]

Tim - first off, stop contradicting yourself. Second, we're talking about war here, not morals. I've decided that there's no getting through to you, and I'm just going to be beating a dead horse trying to argue with you. I can see that there are a few other people around here that are either democratic or independant that are enjoying this argument with you, so I'm going to turn this over to them, and I'm going to sit back and watch the carnage unfold.



Conservatism screws people over.



Scott

 

[NETim]

Hey, I'm enjoying the carnage here too. Don't forget about me! I'm still waiting for solutions, but all I get is armchair quarterbacking and 20/20 hindsight only critical of W.



Germany and Japan weren't democracies before WWII and never had been, but somehow they became democracies. Only a Lefty and others who hold a dim view of their fellow man could believe that a democracy can never exist where it hasn't previously. Note I'm not saying that it will be easy, but it's possible and it's worth trying. Stop thinking about Florida 2000 for a moment and think of the possibilities if a democratic movement were to take hold in the MidEast!



And FYI, I am talking of morals and war, the two are inseparable and well they should be.



You guys on the Left have got to realize, that regardess who is the President, regardless of whether you like him or not, YOU are a target. The terrrorists want you dead simply because you are an American.



You are a target no matter if you're a Rep or a Dem. You are a target whether or not your union dues are paid up. You are a target if you're a student or a working man. You are a target whether or not you like show tunes.



So, do we take down the biker gang or let 'em run wild 'cause we're scared of them and they might hurt us?



And again, did the 9th's decision help or hinder the war on terrorism? Does the Left (which is the 9th) still have trouble id'ing the enemy?



I think so.



Liberalism still corrupts.



Tim

 

[CWebster]

"The art of terror is to lull your victim into a false feeling of security, then strike. It is working in some of you. "



Yet you do not want to send ANY of our fighting men and women out into the world to eliminate these people? Or wait, you do as long as none of them are going to get killed? Lets hear your plan of attack then... . or show me your "leader of choice"(Gephardt? Kerry? Sharpton?) that you would support. Criticism without any alternatives is WHINING and should be treated as such. I am glad that you have your opinion and that you feel free to spew it on the rest of us... . but your confused... tragically. The "garden of Eden" way of life was an option a long, long, time ago. We do not have that option anymore. We live in a world that, outside our borders, is DANGEROUS and much less stable than you and I will ever have to deal with. Now, are we supposed to just sit back and watch everybody else in this world live illiterate, hungry, oppressed? Are we supposed to hole up behind our borders and wait to be attacked? Are we supposed to get attacked and do nothing about it? Please tell me what we are supposed to do... . because by your criticism everything we are doing now is WRONG, right?

 

[CWebster]

Tim, I agree with everything you are saying. Sometimes you have to let the kids get it out of there system... . while the adults do the right things to keep everybody safe. Fortunately we have an administration that does not cave into the crtitcism and the heat of the left... . they know what needs to be done and are doing it. It might be at the expense of their political careers, yet they are doing it anyways. Show me someone from the left doing that. . YOU CAN'T.

 

[loncray]

I don't think it was just us leaving Somalia that encouraged the Muslim extremists - that started with our cutting and running from Lebanon after the barracks bombing there. How come it's never mentioned as appeasement of the bad guys? Because it happened under President Reagan.

 

[NETim]

I hate to admit it, but I have to agree here loncray. We shouldn't have run then either. I am fuzzy on the details as this happened many moons ago (early 80's), but yes we did pull out of Beirut as a result. The timetable??? I don't know.



We shoulda hung around and let the Marines take care of business, then left.



Another fine example of the failed policy of appeasement.



Tim

 

[Champane Flight]

Actually

Actually our war in Iraq is doing more to extend the family of terrorists in that and other country's in the middle east. Great recruiting tool! We just gave them more targets, more reasons, and more weapons.



I don't know how many times I have to say it. You cannot fight a guerrilla force with conventional warfare! Unless you plan on killing everything it will NOT work. Now I know where you guys stand being the "nuke em" crowd, but don't you think we could at least try to see the real reason why? No it is not jealousy, no it is not just "because" we are Americans. I mean even Saddam offered to talk to Bush, he turned down anything but war. You can be happy with a war that is going to last the next twenty years and end up in Armageddon. I don't have to be.



Oh by the way Chris, I probably have quite a few years on you.

 

[Bova]

loncray,NETim I,m with you! The date was Oct 23 1983 6:22am the Marine BLT barracks in Beirut Lebbanon was hit with a truck loaded 12,000pds of high explosives wrapped with explosive gas canisters. It was the largest non nuclear explosion ever detonated. I was there,150 yards from the building that morning .





As far as cut and run loncray that came from the top. We the Marines wanted to even the score, believe me when I tell you!



These people don't think like you. They have little or no fear, they cannot be reasoned with, thier lives are empty, they live only for night fall when they can resume fighting. There is truly only one thing they understand ... devistating, unrelenting force. If we do not defeat them, they will not stop until we are defeated.

 

[Bova]

Champane Flight, "Saddam offered to talk to bush" Thats funny because Yasir Arafat and the PLO talked to President Reagan about a cease fire and we all agreed. It was to start on Oct 22 1983. On Oct 23 I lost 250 damn good friends!

 

[merryman]

Yea, I know, I have posted this before, but it is really interesting how history repeats; the anti-war arguments we are seeing here are so similiar to the anti-war arguments that kept us out of WWII for several years, allowing Hitler to get stronger and stronger and ALLMOST to develope the A-bomb before we did.



WWII could have been a much shorter, easier and far less costly war in both men and material, had we got into it two years earlier, but we had many people here saying much the same things we see here.

Had we been kept out a short time longer and allowed Hitler to get the bomb first, who knows where we would all be now



Had we allowed Saddam to get the Bomb????

AND, had we jumped on Hitler when it became obvious that he was a world threat, the Jappanese would not have had the idea that we were a toothless tiger that would not and could not defend its self; another parallel. Had the terrorist and the nations that made them possible and supported them not have arrived at the idea that we were to fat and dumb to strike back meaningfully, its quite possible that the war on Iraq would never have become necessary.

Read some good incitefull writings on the political buildup to WWII such as "Winds of War" by Uris and "Man Called Intrepid" by Stephenson, you will find yourself thinking you are reading from this forum!!!

Some of our posters on this cite could have written the script for the anti war people of that time---just change the dates.



Vaughn

 

[Champane Flight]

How?????

How can you even try to compare a third world country that was bombed to hell and back ten short years before, with Nazi Germany? How can you even compare a country under sanctions for that same time with weapons inspectors in place, to Nazi Germany? How can you compare and invasion of a sovereign country that had not attacked another country since Kuwait and was under intense surveillance since that war, to WW-2 Germany? Man thats deep, way too deep. Grasping at straws... .



Think again. War is a last resort, always should be! Anyone in his right mind should be against war. It is nothing but killing, death and hell. If war is needed it is only to protect our freedoms, lives and country. I saw none of this at risk from Iraq!



If my country was at risk from Iraq, I would be the first to back a war. Were they attacking us? Was Saddam taking my freedom away? Did we have Iraqi army members on our soil?



This President has done more to soil the flag and to make us look like a bunch of paranoid chickenpoop! It is interesting how history repeats itself. Here we are in Vietnam again!

 

[CWebster]

"Oh by the way Chris, I probably have quite a few years on you. "



I am very confident that you do... but quantity is no substitute for quality...



Unless you can suggest a better way, or suggest a better leader, your criticism has no teeth. It degrades into the classic schoolyard shoving match. Give us alternatives, back up your statements with facts... or don't bother responding. The art of debate is not bludgeoning your opponent to death with an opinion, but overwhelming them with precise facts, proof, and a clear thesis.

 

[merryman]

Declining to see the parallel between the EXCUSES that kept us from stopping Hitler sooner and the reasons for attacking the administration's action in Iraq is a little like saying, "that guy could never hurt me, he dosn't even have a gun---he is only aiming a compound bow at my heart.

I was focusing not on similiarities between Hitler and Saddam but rather on the claims/positions/arguments of those who tried to keep us out of WWII(and did for several years), and those who are trying to undermine our efforts in Iraq.



On WMD's, its not getting play in the major media yet, but an Iraqi military officer is right now stating that they did in fact have artillery shells with either biological or chemical weapon war heads and were in position to use them. He says they are buried out there somewhere.

It appears the administration position is to say little about it untill they have the "smoking gun"



Vaughn