o rings vs fire rings

[moremph]

can someone give me a full out xplanation of the two, what they are, what they look like, what they do. I know that fire's are suppose to be better then o is thier drawbacks to ones over the others?? Thanks alot Travis

 

[Hohn]

From what I understand, the O-rings use a thing wire ring laid into a receiver groove cut into the block or head. This ring seals against the headgasket.



Fire rings are similar in that they use a ring and receiver groove. However, the ring is much thicker, and it doesn't seal against the HG. Instead the HG is water-jetted out around the cylinder ring to make room for this larger ring.





I'm trying with mixed results to convince people that an O-ring is rarely necessary, and when used, is best combined with a copper HG. Yes, it can leak if not done properly. But when done right, it's basically a one-time deal.



Justin

 

[Jim Fulmer]

As I knock on my desk, to date I have had zero issues with my single O-ring. Now keep in mind the head was machined to Piers's specs and completed there then shipped. It ran forever (it seems like) at 65 psi and now holds 80 and has made literally 100's of passes at that boost level. Like any thing it needs a little attention so it gets a re-torque every once in a while but not soon enough.



Jim

 

[RabidRam]

From what I understand, the O-rings use a thing wire ring laid into a receiver groove cut into the block or head. This ring seals against the headgasket.



Fire rings are similar in that they use a ring and receiver groove. However, the ring is much thicker, and it doesn't seal against the HG. Instead the HG is water-jetted out around the cylinder ring to make room for this larger ring.



Justin

So a headgasket is STILL used with O/Fire ringing? Is it then possible (or has it already happened) that the headgasket can blow even after a ringing is done? I was under the impression that once you O/Fire ring, other then re-torquing every now-and-then, that your worries are over... that the sky is the limit for boost. I know there are no guarantees, but I thought that ringing your head was a permanent fix. Can somebody please chime in here and point me to the light?



Reason I'm asking is because I am in desperate need of a turbo. But, I don't want to get a bigger (or twin) turbo if my head can't handle the boost. I was gonna have it ringed, but if that isn't a "permanent" fix, then I might have to rethink some things.



Thanks for any input,



Dave

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Justin mentioned on another thread about the new 3rd Gen head gaskets (Multi Layer Steel)... anyone experiment with them yet?



The VW TDI's use 'em and I've never heard of anyone roasting one, yet. Those guys get worried when they hit 35psi, though. :-laf



Matt

 

[vssman]

Justin mentioned on another thread about the new 3rd Gen head gaskets (Multi Layer Steel)... anyone experiment with them yet?



The VW TDI's use 'em and I've never heard of anyone roasting one, yet. Those guys get worried when they hit 35psi, though. :-laf



Matt

Hmmm, I wonder if the TDI web site has a "pay it forward" section... I have a 35 psi gauge sitting in the basement. Uhhh, it's been pegged quite a few times though... :-laf

 

[mattymac]

Dave, with the Fire Rings, you still use a HG.



Ringing the head isn't necessarily a permanent fix. O-rings are preferable to fire rings, IMHO only, because the O-rings are thinner. Fire rings are large enough to cause stresses on the head that crack them in some cases.



Like I said, a copper HG with a fine wire O-ring is about as close to permanent as you can get, but it's a hassle because you'll be re-torquing a lot.



To me, an MLS gasket with ARP studs is the ultimate low-buck fix. NO grooves to machine= less stress on head/block. MLS can move laterally which helps sealing. ARP studs (12mm) provide high clamping force without the block distortion/weakening of 14mm studs.



Not to mention, as gasket and stud swap is CAKE in terms of time and money compared to an O-ring/fire-ring job.



jlh

So Justin can you answer me this? Has anyone found out the average limit of the 3rd gen head seal in terms of boost #'s, and second would you know how much more the MLS gasket and ARP 12mm studs could hold down on a 3rd gen?

 

[sewman]

so what a "MLS" gasket?

tia,Bob

 

[Piers]

So far I've had no problems at 60+ lbs of boost in my 04. 5, when I get a spare minute or two, I'm going to stud it and raise the boost to 70psi. I'm hoping the new multi layer head gaskets are going to hold at 70psi with nothing but studs. That will save a lot of time and effort if we only need to stud them.

 

[supersonic]

MLS=Multi Layered Steel. When it comes to high performance NOTHING is permenant. O- rings, regardless of what kind of HG you use is only reliably good to about 80-90lbs. The type of HG you use only helps you determine how long it will stay sealed when things start movin around. Fire rings, still haven't found the limits as far as boost, besides timing is what is going to lift the head. just my PERSONAL experience.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Piers



Can I use this gasket with my single O-Ring setup that I have right now and mate it with the 12mm studs or go to 14's?



I've been kicking the idea around of staying with a stocker gasket instead of copper as I'm having no issues still... ... ... maybe I should plug my pop off's



Jim

 

[justinp20012500]

Ok, now this thread has got my thinking. Since my spare head is stitting in my garage waiting to be milled ported/polished and ringed...



Ok, I was told that if my truck is going to see more street miles then track mile I should stay away from a copper head gasket. I have a couple of stock head gaskets for a 2001 and am planning on using the 12mm studs and a oring job with a stock gasket.



1. Is the stock 2001 head gasket a multi layer?

2. If its not, where can I get one?

3. How often should the studs be retorqed?

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The anticipation is killing me...



Is there an MLS head gasket that will fit 12-valves?



I've always been under the impression that the 12/24 valve HG's are not interchangable...



Matt

 

[gsdog1]

Just curious, how much did it run you?



Matt

 

[RonA]

62. 50 + shipping.

Ron

 

[RowJ]

Travis & Dave

When I blew my head gasket, I did a lot of research. Here are a few conclusions I came up with, for what they are worth, as well as a few answers to your questions.

-Dodge heads are commonly not very level-decking them is big part of eliminating future problems.

- Whether it's o-ring or firering, the most important thing is the quality of work done. Groove depth and torque is critical.

-Firerings come with their own heavy duty gaskets. Head studs complete the package.

-Good o-ringing obviously works well (if it holds for Jim Fulmer, nuf said).

-Ideas about firerings being "touchy", or for racers only are in my opinion false.

-A good ring job, at reasonable HP levels, say up to 500 hp, should be a permanant fix; as much as is possible.

-JustinP... Can see no serious reason why street miles are bad for copper rings. After seeing the rings, gasket and the studs I would not worry about that.



When my head gasket went I had no idea where I wanted to end up, HP wise, and knew only that I wanted to only go through the process once, if possible! So I went with the lattest and greatest at the time-Firerings and studs. Am not at all unhappy but suspect I overkilled, for me.

Just my gut feeling, firerings are a step up from O-rings. But... precision of the workmanship on the head decking and ring install is most important.

 

[Snow man]

With a MLS ,you dont use an o ring,just get the head milled perfectly flat,and check the block for warpage. Assemble with studds. A 2001 head gasket is fine to use with an o ring in either the block or head. I have run both the o ring and fire ring,the o rings have held better for me, but the fire ring job wasnt done perfectly,so it isnt fair to compare them,IMO. Most of the problems with the head gasket are errors in machining,or installing the o rings. If it is all done right,it seems like either will hold.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

hey guys



my head has been o-ringed for over 2 years and has held up great. i had mine done at piers's shop, al and i did it. i think i was the 2nd one that they had done. i have over 50k miles on my twins and head gasket. my truck at 550rwhp which s were i drive it every day makes about 60psi. my truck had made as much as 90lbs with no problems. i also have the oem bolts and oem gasket. my truck see's lots of nitrous. i have seen many more people with studs blow a head gasket than with out. i'm not sure why this happens but it does.





this has held up sled pulling and hundreds of 1/4 mile passes.



jim

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Will the 3rd Gen MLS gasket work with a 12-valve?



Matt

 

[mattymac]

Will the 3rd Gen MLS gasket work with a 12-valve?



Matt

I think Piers knows if it will or not.