Possible end of Chrysler / Cummins Contract

['strokeThis_'07]

Ford doesnt WANT an inline 6, thats why they wont pick up Cummins. For whatever reason, both them and GM think a V8 diesel is the way to go. Im sure GM could have told Isuzu they wanted an inline 6 and gotten it. But GM is, historically, known for their V8s. Small/Big Block Chevy anyone... ?



Ford just recently had the best opportunity theyve EVER had, far more likely than getting Cummins to supply, of getting an inline 6 under the hood. They designed, from the ground up, a... wait for it... V8 DIESEL!!! They started from basically scratch, and could have designed a friggin V12 diesel if they wanted, let alone an I6. And they went to a V8 again.



Facts are what facts are. Ford and GM dont want an I6, Cummins or otherwise. Nissan and Toyota dont have a quarter of the truck necessary to hold a Cummins, and certainly dont have the underhood space to fit one. And Ill say it now, itll be a cold day in hell when either has a diesel under their hoods, atleast in a heavy duty pickup. POSSIBLY their current platforms, but I just dont see the foreign manufacturers building a heavy duty platform. So, that being said, minus Dodge, where would Cummins go??



Think about it guys, with your reality shades on. There simply isnt a home for Cummins in another pickup if Dodge and them were to split. They know it. Dodge knows it, as well as what that engine means. Apparently Im the only other one that can see it as-is. In order for another manufacturer to place a Cummins underhood, major changes in mentality and physical limits need to take place, and thats asking an aweful lot of auto execs...

 

[dlmetzger]

Cummins and Nissan

There has been info out there that Cummins and Nissan look like they are going to put a diesel in a pickup truck.



With or Without Chrysler, Cummins is Committed to Light-Duty Diesel - PickupTrucks.com News

 

[DGamelin]

Uh-Oh!

 

[rbattelle]

Ford just recently had the best opportunity theyve EVER had, far more likely than getting Cummins to supply, of getting an inline 6 under the hood. They designed, from the ground up, a... wait for it... V8 DIESEL!!! They started from basically scratch, and could have designed a friggin V12 diesel if they wanted, let alone an I6. And they went to a V8 again.



Facts are what facts are. Ford and GM dont want an I6, Cummins or otherwise.

I think this is an interesting point. It would be very interesting to see what criteria went into the choice of V8 - did they even do a trade study on configuration? Or did they simply pick what they've always used?



Many have argued in the past that the reason Ford and GM want to stick with V8 is because people assume 8 cylinders are better than 6. I mean, I tell people regularly that my truck is only a 6-cylinder, and they invariably express shock that anyone would be so dumb as to buy a full size truck without a V8.



Both GM and Ford sell a lot more V8 diesels than Dodge sells I6 Cummins trucks, so maybe they're right - people want a V8. For most people, buying a vehicle is an emotional rather than logical decision, and 8 cylinders "feels" bigger than 6 cylinders. Men in particular want to "feel" they're driving the biggest-baddest truck they can get. Which is why some of them go so far as to buy something like this. [Seriously - someone where I work has one of those in his Nissan Titan hitch ]



Ryan

 

[DGamelin]

I,ll buy that rbattelle. From an engine builder stand point the smaller the combustion chamber the easier it is to control burn, the better the emissions are going to be, or at least to control. In theory it would be easier to get better emissions from a 6. 7 V8 than a 6. 7 in line 6.



_________________________

93 250 2wd xc 354 auto 264k

04. 5 3500 4wd cc dully 373 6speed 87k

 

[CurtLee]

I think this is an interesting point. It would be very interesting to see what criteria went into the choice of V8 - did they even do a trade study on configuration? Or did they simply pick what they've always used?



Many have argued in the past that the reason Ford and GM want to stick with V8 is because people assume 8 cylinders are better than 6. I mean, I tell people regularly that my truck is only a 6-cylinder, and they invariably express shock that anyone would be so dumb as to buy a full size truck without a V8.



Both GM and Ford sell a lot more V8 diesels than Dodge sells I6 Cummins trucks, so maybe they're right - people want a V8. For most people, buying a vehicle is an emotional rather than logical decision, and 8 cylinders "feels" bigger than 6 cylinders. Men in particular want to "feel" they're driving the biggest-baddest truck they can get. Which is why some of them go so far as to buy something like this. [Seriously - someone where I work has one of those in his Nissan Titan hitch ]



Ryan

I agree with this. Most people think diesel powered trucks are V8's, and most think the same about big rigs. They go into shock when I tell them that the semi sitting in front of my house is an I6:-laf Its just bigger then most are



I personally believe most people think V8 because thats what they saw in trucks growning up. You can really thank GM for that with the big block/small block in their trucks. Its just what they're used too.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I agree with this. Most people think diesel powered trucks are V8's, and most think the same about big rigs. They go into shock when I tell them that the semi sitting in front of my house is an I6:-laf Its just bigger then most are



I personally believe most people think V8 because thats what they saw in trucks growning up. You can really thank GM for that with the big block/small block in their trucks. Its just what they're used too.

Minor point, perhaps, but for Ford or GM to NOW market an I-6, would be an admission that Dodge had it right all along - and THEY were wrong...



BUT, with all the reformulation of diesel fuels to the present, and the steady increase in engine life of the gasser engines, the extra cost of the diesel becomes increasingly difficult to justify for all but the most serious truck owner/operators...



And yeah - the higher reving diesel V8's will undoubtedly be easier for emission controls than the traditional inline, low-reving sixes...

 

[rbattelle]

And yeah - the higher reving diesel V8's will undoubtedly be easier for emission controls than the traditional inline, low-reving sixes...

So emissions are a function of piston speed. Can you explain that? I have no reason to doubt you, it's just that I haven't kept up with emissions developments on reciprocating engines.



Ryan

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Ryan, I was going on past read articles on the subject - memory (poor as it is... ) seems to recall emissions in diesels is to an extent a function of flame fronts and combustion duration, which typically occur faster in higher reving engines - but any articles I have read are long gone at this point - perhaps others can contribute info, either pro or con...



By the way, we're on the road at this time, and this is written from a motel room near St. Louis Mo - been to Findlay Ohio, now on the way home to John Day Oregon...

 

[CurtLee]

Minor point, perhaps, but for Ford or GM to NOW market an I-6, would be an admission that Dodge had it right all along - and THEY were wrong...

Right you are, but Ford and GM owners are so used to seeing V8's under the hoods of their trucks, I personally don't believe they would go after an I-6 after all the high revving V8 diesels they have had.



Just for an example, my father in law is a die hard ford guy. He currently has a '99(?) F350 PS, and even with all the trouble that truck has given him he still won't hear a word against it. Many ford owners like him seem to think their truck is the greatest and nobody can tell them otherwise.



There is one upside to I-6 over the V8 diesels. Before I had my current semi with a cummins, I had an International with the Catepillar V8 and 13 speed transmission, it got what i thought was ok mileage 6. 5-8 mpg depending on the load. Now i have a '06 International with the Cummins and 10 speed, my fuel mileage is one of the best in our fleet ranging from 7-10 mpg. Now that may not seem very good but it is.



I'm not sure if that was brought up but our inline motors get better fuel economy then comparable V8's.



My $0. 02

 

[rbattelle]

Right you are, but Ford and GM owners are so used to seeing V8's under the hoods of their trucks, I personally don't believe they would go after an I-6 after all the high revving V8 diesels they have had.

With one exception - it seems like anyone who has ever owned or known anyone who owned an old Ford 300 in^3 I6 (spark ignition) thinks it's one of the greatest engines in all of history.



And they might be right.



Ryan

 

[HBarlow]

The Ford 300ci inline six was a good engine but it was not different than the old inline six cylinder that Chevy/GMC used in all trucks prior to the small block V8 of 1955.