Preporator DYNO thread

[Dkevdog]

Wade- I;m curous to know what you did to modify for a bracket. Dave and I had to fabricate a bracket to keep the filters out and away from the parking brake cable on the frame rail. That was the easy part. .



Gary, I can't speak for Wade, but for us, the "same day" Dyno running was simply just not gonna happen. Not only is it impractical (particularly the way Dave and I plumbing these things), but niether of us wanted to be 'Rushed in getting things finalized on the installation. We are trying our best to eliminate every other possible variable. The weather here in So Cal is generally very consistent, as is the humidity (generally near none). The same operator will run the dyno, etc. IF the pump performs as claimed, you will see an increase in HP (of which I still doubt... OI'm hoping to become a believer here soon). My only holdback is awaiting some fittings from Wilcat Diesel. Everything else, including plumbing is ready to go.



Regardless of what we find, it will be disputed,:-{} rest assured. If not by you, then by someone else. All *we* can do is report our findings, and everyone can take it for what its worth. Remember- Wade and I, as well as others were skeptical of the claims-which leads us to where we are with it today.



With any luck, (meaning I get the fittings ) I will have mine in next Saturday, and we will Dyno ASAP (likely the following Monday).



I'll keep everyone posted from our end.



Kev

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Gary You need to get a life and I thought I had time on my hands!! Get off your soap box

Ill be running with the same fuel from the last time i dynoed minus the fuel that i burned on the dyno if thats ok with you. and the same 02 truck,same tires,and wearing the same pants,t-shirt,socks,shoes,

right down to my under wear. will that be ok

Now i know that i have no life am wasting my time with you here

Will with that said have a nice life if you can fine one

David"



WELL, lessee - I pointed out that dynoing on widely separate days creates potential for variations in results - do you disagree with that?



I also pointed out that even dyno runs on the SAME day/dyno usually display variations - do you disagree with THAT?



I then pointed out fuel quality and cetane ratings MAY vary widely from one tankful to another and might create additional variations - do you disagree with THAT too?



OR, are you merely complaing about the fact that I exist - and prefer to attack ME at the personal level, since you HAVE no grounds to stand on as to the subject itself?



And NO, stacking smilies in after essentially calling me a S. O. B. doesn't cut it either...



Yeah, YOU have a nice day too...

 

[Doubleclutch]

Not wishing to get "betwixt" you two, but my view is that the Dyno is the only non-subjective method to evaluate differences in performance derived from a given widgit. It is most important to allow as few variables as possible into the equation. Therefore, I believe Gary has points, and Kev- etal. must agree. However, I sure can't argue with the difficulties involved in the installation/testing. Bottom line- I'm going to toss in a monkey wrench- some widgets like ram air, and probably FASS/Preporator fuel treatment won't be seen on a STATIONARY device.

Good luck with testing. Keep it civil- we're all among the elite here.

Greg

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Good luck with testing. Keep it civil- we're all among the elite here. "



I couldn't agree more - which is why I saw fit to attach THIS at the bottom of the post David complains about:



"I know, a guy can only use what he has to work with... "



I have NO problem with guys finding fault with my logic or conclusions - and then offering counterpoints of their own - I *DO* have problems with fellas whose LACK of logic and/or reason, then compells them to resort to juvenile personal attack - I have always aggressively resisted that type of attack, and always WILL if the "powers that be" don't step in and take care of it themselves...



Attack my conclusions all you like - I *do* make mistakes - but attack ME personally at your own risk!



As far as THIS thread topic goes, my primary concern is that past similar threads have pretty much established that power differences obtained by systems like those discussed, have been either non-existent, or slight at best - and it takes VERY little variation to seriously muddy the water EITHER way - a 5 HP difference in a system expected or claimed to deliver a 60 HP gain is ONE thing - a system that at best may only provide that 5 HP gain is another entirely - and it helps casual readers unfamiliar with dynos and dyno runs to fully understand those differences right from the beginning...



NOW, excuse me while I run out to look for a life...

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

WELL, lessee - I pointed out that dynoing on widely separate days creates potential for variations in results - do you disagree with that?



I also pointed out that even dyno runs on the SAME day/dyno usually display variations - do you disagree with THAT?



Yes, I would agree that dynoing on separate days creates the potential for variations... ... ... . but, not much. If the truck is the same with no mods, there wont be much of a difference at all.



I would disagree with you about the same day results as I have seen it happen twice that the same runs created less than a few HP and TQ results.

I hope this isn't taken as a personal attack, as its not. With the results that I had dynoing almost 10 weeks apart only yielded a difference of 3 HP and 8 ft. lb of tq. Big difference, no. A difference yes, but I doubt there is anyone on the site that could explain to a "T" how 1 or 2 difference in HP varies or how or why it didn't turn out to be the exact same every time.



I do believe that Kev and dsherman are doing there best to insure the best testing that they can do. Hats off to them at least for making an effort to bring the results to the other members here on the boards. It takes a lot of time and effort (and $$ )and I am sure that if it were possible to do the test s on the same day, they would. Thanks guys !



My own belief about the FASS and Preporator fuel systems : I doubt you will find any difference between the two. If there is a HP increase/decrease, its going to be a small amount that really wont make a difference. Just my . 02

 

[Dkevdog]

David... ... ... . try and behave yourself!!



As for the same day variance in Dyno results- I do agree with that- howvere, like Don pointed out, the variance is very minimal. On all three of the recorded runs that I am using as a base (I believe David's as well) there is less than a 2hp/6ft lb difference. It is also why you make three passes and average the results. NO scientific testing is ever done once. There isn't much more to say on this thread until I get my installation complete and we dyno again.....



Kev

 

[dsherman]

Dyno

Gary,

Ill try to tone it down a little. We 24 valve guys are all in the same boat in that were trying to find the best fuel system agree!

I put a lot of work into this and the install was a bit difficult.

we had no install kit,fittings,hose,etc,etc to start off with and we had to make our own brackets to mount the pump to clear the break lines. I routed my fuel lines from the tank to the pump,pump to the stock fuel filter canister then to VP44.

know way could i of done a same day dyno!

Now how really off can the dyno numbers be by not doing same day dyno? I believe not much if any!

Now Gary I don't remember calling you an S. O. B all a said is to get a life and that you had to much time on your hands.

Your profile states that you are retired 6 years from a daily paper and you have 4 grown kids and 8 grandkids and you live in the country on 5 acres and "still lots of time to get in trouble on the Internet"

Maybe play more with your grandkids or return to your paper route

I'm not a bad guy am just sick of all the B. S from all you so call professionals that thank you know so much.

So Gary come to our dyno day i would like to meet you and you'll see that am not a bad guy after all

David

 

[PRout]

In going along w/ toning it down. .



Haven't dyno'd yet, but objectively speaking after 100k miles of driving this truck, then installing the Fass:



Cons:

1. Do not detect more HP.

2. Have not seen any increase in MPG's.

3. Still smokes, probably as much as before the install.



Pros:

1. Runs smoother at all RPM's, most noticably while cruising the freeway, and rolling it on from there - smooth, solid pull.

2. Very stable fuel pressure.

3. Nice heavy built unit.



I really dont expect to see much HP increase from the upcoming dyno numbers, if any. Dont think there is much difference between the Prep, or the FASS.



Are they worth the money? Time will tell, but so far the Fass appears worth it.



VIN number, & engine I. D. available upon request. -

 

[BillGotthelf]

Shortshift=I could not have said it better myself.

 

[dsherman]

RErep

OK, so fear so good.

Drove all over in the last few days and i like what i see and feel.

At idle in the garage with both doors open it smells much less then before. On the road while shifting I can see that it smokes less.

Its More responsive, smoother running at idle and on the road. While cruising at 80 mph I show 14 1/2 psi. Will pull down to 14 psi when on it. At idle its 15 psi, before the instill fuel pressers where at idle 15 psi and at cruising at 80 mph 10 1/2 psi when on it pulls down to 7 psi. To early to tell mpg, Still starts right up

I like it so fear I know its keeping my VP44 real happy, and if its happy am happy!!!!

Will dyno next week with kev and we will see what happens next

David

 

[Dkevdog]

Remaining fittings have arrived... ... ... . Sunday is a go for the install.



We are set to Dyno on Wednesday March 31. Results will follow soon after.



Kev

 

[dsherman]

Re: Its a go

Kev,

Its about time

Can't wait until Sunday Oo. Oo. Oo.

See you Sunday in the early am

David

 

[Ncostello]

Less smell... less smoke? Whats the point here!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Next will be "less noise"? - maybe DC used the WRONG approach for reduced noise/more power with the 3rd generation trucks!



Just kidding - no WAR intended!

 

[Dkevdog]

Well, thanks to Dave, my system is in and working. My daughter has been very ill in the hospital, so Dave did nearly all of it himself. I've only been able to take it around the corner a couple of times, but I do have it today so I can drive it some before we Dyno tomorrow. It does feel stronger, I'll say that, and the engine has a different sound- I wouldn't necessarily say quieter, but different. Not sure if its because there is noise from the lift pump (now an engine ornament) of because of the pump. I think its the new pump though. It's too early to really say.



Right now my thoughts are with my duaghter, not the truck.



We'll still be on the dyno tomorrow morning, and I will try to get results posted as soon as possible under my circumstances.



Cheers,

Kev

 

[JSHAW]

I have'nt been following this thread Ijust went to the last page and read of your daughter. I am very sorry to hear about this and wish you and your family all the best and I will pray for your daughter. My son was just in a very serious car wreck so I know what you must be feeling. Again I hope everything works outfor you.



Jim Shaw

 

[Dkevdog]

Well, I guess its time to post the results of the Dyno runs from the two So Cal Rattlin Rams trucks.



First of all, it's been a rough week, My daughter was in the hospital all week long (she's 10) and our local group had a major event this weekend, so we've been busy.



Second, I want to thank Charles Ekstam and Ekstam Worldwide for donating the pumps for testing. There was still a great deal of work that went into getting this things up and running. In all fairness, we did NOT modify the pickup tubes in the tanks, and used the existing pickup tube and used 3/8" line from the factory tube. There have been issues with modifications to the pickup tube, and niether myself nor Dave wanted to get involved with that just yet. The pump's supplied brackets were not adequate to clear the factory emergency brake cables, so both of us fabricated a bracket to extend the pump further from the frame. The pump was also not supplied with any fittings or lines, although a kit is now in the works so it will be a direct bolt on application. Both of us installed valves on the pump to facilitate filter changes, and because the valves are locking, it makes for a fuel lockout as well. 3/8 line was used for the fuel lines from the pump to the stock fuel filter cannister, which we also chose to use because of the fuel heater and for further filtration. There is a very, very minimal, if any restriction in setting it up in this manner. From the filter cannister (the OEM lift pump is bypassed completely) we utilized pieces from the Wilcat Max Flow kit to plumb to the VP44. Standard 1/2" fuel line was used for the Preporator pump return line. We utilized a wye fitting and do not have a splashback problem during refueling.



Dave and I ponied up to AFE's dyno for a second time (Thanks Nick) and were not honestly expecting any increase. And that is what we saw. Little to no increase. Dave's truck is basically a stock 02' HO. His numbers were identical to his three base runs. The difference is the FP readings, which will not go down more than 1. 5 psi. This is from 15psi. His truck runs very smooth, has less smoke, and smells different. Yes, I know... . I did say smells different.



My truck, is a lightly modified 01HO with 275 injectors with the EZ. There was a difference in the modified truck.

Peak torque 7. 09 ft-lbs

peak HP 0. 45 Hp



Max gain 26. 0 ft-lbs @ 1500

max gain 7. 36 hp @1500



The truck seems to get up a bit quicker, but I doubt that is a from a the slight HP increase in the earlier band. I just don't think a$$ dyno can pick up on 7hp. I wanted the truck to run better, so I felt it ran better. It might be a mental mindset. It does not hesitate under a hard acceleration and sounds healthier too. Why? And Does this make a difference?? I don't know. It's like a good tune up though, it did wake things up. I also notice a difference in smell (yes I 've said it twice now). I will post the actual Dyno sheets when I am able to.



I expereinced a failure of my mechanical isolator, so until I get that straightened out, I will refrain from discussing my pressure readings until I can verify their accuracy. The isolator did not fail until after the dyno tests were done.



Once again, regardless of was posted here, someone will scrutinize it. I am keeping to my obligations to present the data and facts to the best of my ability. But admittedly, doing any posting around here lately is like walking into a firing squad. I will do my best to answer any questions anyone may have, but lets keep the :-{} and personal attacks out of this.



Kev

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Kev, First off, I hope your daughter is doing well. Thoughts and prayers have been going out for you and your family.



Second, I just wanted to say thanks to you and the other members that have taken time out of their lives to do this testing. We all would not know the truth about these systems if we didn't do them ourselves. Thanks for your efforts.



Don

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for the detailed info - and best wishes concerning your daughter - hope all ends well.



"I wanted the truck to run better, so I felt it ran better. It might be a mental mindset. "



YUP, I think "mental mindset" pretty much sums it up!



We spend money to make changes, install the new goodies, and if we are of an optimistic mindset, almost WILL it to do better - to the extent our imagination takes over control of the seat of our pants (nose too, from the comment on smell! ), and we become absolutely CERTAIN the change was an improvement - human nature!



Of course, it's absolutely the opposite with a pessimist!



The results were pretty much on the money as to what I expected - thanks again.

 

[Dkevdog]

In all fairness to Charles, two points were brought up when I told him of our results. First, his instructions were to increase the size of the pickup tube from the tank- which we didn't do, and secondly, he told Dave that we should have run on the Dyno in a different fashion- loading the Mustang up after we brought the truck's HP up- not sure exactly what he meant and neither did the operator. Both Dyno tests were performed using the exact same criteria and data offsets.



I do want to stress to anyone reading this, that our intention was to test and see exactly what results we saw from adding this system to our trucks. While it may not have actually added HP, it is most certainly a quality product- trust me- this one really heavy duty, well made pump. (Did I mention HEAVY?? )



My point has been made- RELIABILITY. I believe this pump will prove itself as a very reliable pump that survive longevity along with the Cummins (While the rest of what Dodge built around it falls apart). OF course, Only time will tell, but these same pumps have been used in OTR operations for many tens of thousands of miles.



Good luck to you all in your quest for fuel pump replacements- we're all in this together, and any information provided can prove valuable to us all.





Kev



PS- Thanks to all for your well wishes for my daughter. She is recovering at home now, and doing better each day.