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Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Remington 5r

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Brother BIG!
I did not mention; " Neck thickness or length of neck, bullet crimp and seating depth" specifically! But I will, Ifn ya don't mind?

What BIG mentioned in his quote is all part of case prep and understanding relationships between components.
In my experience; The only rounds I have been crimping are for lever action rifles and "resolvers". There can be times when you would want to crimp ammo for a heavy recoiling rifle with a tubular or box magazine. A single shot, may or may not need the crimp, merely for accuracy or weather resistance. Autoloaders? Thats up to the user and loader. The military and commercial factory ammo is usually crimped. It is not necessary or desirable in every case. Just one thing I would say about that part of the loading process; it should be done as a separate step. Combining bullet seating with crimping as a single operation, skids the bullet through a gradually tightening noose. Not an accuracy enhancing procedure.

To further discuss BIG's points. Neck wall thickness should be concentric and the same, case to case. With Rem-Chester, Federal and some other brands, that depends on the lot and cartridge. If you have eccentric neck wall thickness, you have a round that has eccentric neck tension and the possibility of starting the bullet into the rifling, off center (an out of round, round!) and/or the thin side of the neck releasing a nanosecond before the thick side skewing the bullet into the throat. Neck length is critical for consistent neck tension on the bullet. Short necks have tension on shorter sections of the bullet bearing surface. Long necks have more contact, therefore increased pressure to overcome that neck tension until the neck expands sufficiently to completely release the bullet! It all happens in a microsecond. Worse case scenario is when the necks are to long. They jam into the shoulder formed at the end of the chamber/neck, at the beginning of the throat and act like a bottleneck on the bullet, which has to squeeze past the reduced diameter, jacking pressures through the roof. We wont mention what that will do to the bearing surface of the bullet that started behind that reduced diameter ring of brass. Chamfering necks should be done in a manner to eliminate shaving the bullet jacket when seating the bullet. I have found that the standard chamfering tools are inadequate and now use a VLD style tapered inside chamfering tool. However, the one I purchased has an adjustable stop. The bad part is that it is hand held. Better to have one mounted in a centered turning fixture. This is one example of many;
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/...87_a_7c1021_a_7c749002488_d_749004113_d_20539

Turning necks to create a batch of new brass with the same neck wall thickness could be necessary. Be careful of creating a donut of brass at the base of the neck, by turning down slightly into the neck shoulder juncture. If you have the best quality brass, even some of them will have minor neck wall thickness variations. Its worth while to check them all!
Time consuming? Absolutely.

Heres one trick that will keep perfectly prepped brass concentric during full length sizing. Set your die into the press, run the ram (with shell holder inserted in the ram) all the way up to the top of the stroke. Screw the die down to touch the shell holder. Then (My process) back it off about about 1/2 turn. (That is only so you do not set your shoulders back. Multiple use ammo may require the shoulder set back.)
Now, heres the key. Do not set your lock ring. "Grease" up a properly prepped case and insert it into the withdrawn ram/shell holder. Run the case up into the die, THEN SET THE LOCK RING! Your die will center itself over the case, in the manufacturing tolerance slop between the die/press threads. Now if you have custom dies, like "Neil Jones Custom", as an example. Those threads are a class 3-4 fit in the press threads. If your ram is not centered or the shell holder is misaligned, you will be able to see that in the loaded ammo. Just roll them on a flat surface. If the bullet does a "woogity woogity" as it rolls, you know ya got an alignment problem!
This is my story and I'm sticking to it!:-laf Hope this helps!

BIG has been shooting and reloading since he was a Grasshopper! Rifle and handgun ammo From varmints to Big and VERY Dangerous Game. A REAL Mountain Man, to boot!

HHhuntitall (his handle gave him away :-laf) has shot out more barrels than I have! Thats a lot of ammo, Brother!:D We ALL have a piece of the pie!

Two fine Men with multiple talents!
GOD Bless!

GregH
 
..... and don't forget neck tension can be regulated by how much you resize the case of the mouth, dictated by the resizing swage that comes out of your case when FL resizing. I like to have .002 tension on match ammo, but .004-8 on hunting ammo.... Crimping on match bullets will result in damaged copper jackets on your bullets.... which translates to flyers or even "smoked" holes on the target.... or perhaps even little puffs of smokes in front of the target with no bullet gettin' to the mark!!

HHhuntitall (his handle gave him away :-laf) has shot out more barrels than I have! Thats a lot of ammo, Brother!:D We ALL have a piece of the pie!

Two fine Men with multiple talents!
GOD Bless!

GregH

I have shot more than one barrel out on more than one rifle, but careful to call what I have talent.... Please don't tell anyone, even if I do, thay may expect too much of me!! :eek:

Speakin' of which, my old Mod 70 .284 Win is starting to act up, with groups spreading out a little.... I can't see the throat erosion, but the 168s really aren't seating down very far in the case anymore and the OAL has grown around .165.... It's getting near time, I'm afraid.... :{ Loaded only 100 rounds this last go around.... Next hundred will dictate if the barrel is going or not..... Gonna need access to a lathe.... :D

Hey, Big, I recently acquired an action that has the large bolt face for the .378 cartridge.... I'm thinking of the .338/378 cartridge, what OAL do you use on yours? 3.65"?
 
One of these years I'll acquire a bolt gun. Then I'll be right up there with you "anal" guys :) on a singe stage press, and all the other extra gadgets. For now, I am content loading poodle popper ammo for a rifle designed for MOM (Minute Of Man) to hit 1 MOA.

If you guys were to watch my reloading practices/methods while I am turning out 800 - 1000 rounds of 5.56 in a session, let alone the press itself, you'd probably go into fits, but you can't argue my results.

FL sizing every time, no chamfering of the case mouth, just a slight bell to allow .010 of drop in seating with non-boat tail projectiles (which I don't use anymore), slight crimp ~ enough to pass a tap test without a change in COAL.
 
..... and don't forget neck tension can be regulated by how much you resize the case of the mouth, dictated by the resizing swage that comes out of your case when FL resizing. I like to have .002 tension on match ammo, but .004-8 on hunting ammo.... Crimping on match bullets will result in damaged copper jackets on your bullets.... which translates to flyers or even "smoked" holes on the target.... or perhaps even little puffs of smokes in front of the target with no bullet gettin' to the mark!!



I have shot more than one barrel out on more than one rifle, but careful to call what I have talent.... Please don't tell anyone, even if I do, thay may expect too much of me!! :eek:

Speakin' of which, my old Mod 70 .284 Win is starting to act up, with groups spreading out a little.... I can't see the throat erosion, but the 168s really aren't seating down very far in the case anymore and the OAL has grown around .165.... It's getting near time, I'm afraid.... :{ Loaded only 100 rounds this last go around.... Next hundred will dictate if the barrel is going or not..... Gonna need access to a lathe.... :D

Hey, Big, I recently acquired an action that has the large bolt face for the .378 cartridge.... I'm thinking of the .338/378 cartridge, what OAL do you use on yours? 3.65"?

HH that would vary on the bullet used, when I load it can be any place from 3.65 to 3.750 the method that I use to find cartridge OAL is an old one that my Dad showed me, BIL and Nephew have a gauge that they use and they cant get any better results than what I get in fact on Jason's 30/378 they played and played with the fancy thing and couldn't get it to shoot worth beans, I took a stab at it after a reloading session and they had gone home, using my method and they were surprised with the final results.

It is bullet specific and in my Dad's and My thinking weapon specific.

We take a one time fired case IN THE GUN THAT YOUR FINIDING OAL FOR, and with the bullet that your wanting to use. Put the bullet into the case neck it should have enough tension to make it hold but allow it to slide. Chamber the round IN THE GUN that its going to be shot in and gently let the lands of the rifling push the bullet into the case, extract the case and measurer the OAL. I do this several times to get a good starting point. On loading I start with the longest possible OAL and shorten it by 2 thousandths, and see how that works, and try another thousandth it could get better results or not. Of course you have to look for signs of pressure on cases, then find what powder charge with a bullet and if you change any of the components in the mix, YOU START ALL OVER AGIN. but at least you would have your OAL known which helps. I have several reloading manuals that give an OAL of 3.65, 3.750, 3.738 I would have to check my reloading journals to find out what the OAL is for a that type of bullet. I have had my Banger!! re-barreled so all that info was for the last barrel, I choose to move up to a new level of self-abuse with this one and moved from a 225gr to a 250gr bullet. I asked the Gunsmith what the difference is? its the chamber is cut in this one vs my old barrel he gave some long unwanted verbal reason that I have some interest in, I don't know all the technical jargon to this, I just like to piddle *F* around with guns and make them into SHOOTERS!! using methods that are sometimes thought to be kind of different.

PS: I have found a new twist to this barrel that its more temperamental when the temps get low, like - cold, the primers start looking like Pie Pans :-laf could be just a bit on the warm side of loading!!

When I said that I use a crimp its not like my 44mag or 45/70 ball buster with a good roll crimp its more of a sight taper crimp just to keep the bullets form moving when in my cartridge box on a mule that is packing the weight that I don't want to.

One of these years I'll acquire a bolt gun. Then I'll be right up there with you "anal" guys :) on a singe stage press, and all the other extra gadgets. For now, I am content loading poodle popper ammo for a rifle designed for MOM (Minute Of Man) to hit 1 MOA.

If you guys were to watch my reloading practices/methods while I am turning out 800 - 1000 rounds of 5.56 in a session, let alone the press itself, you'd probably go into fits, but you can't argue my results.

FL sizing every time, no chamfering of the case mouth, just a slight bell to allow .010 of drop in seating with non-boat tail projectiles (which I don't use anymore), slight crimp ~ enough to pass a tap test without a change in COAL.

I think that a person that sees my reloading practices on the Dillion would be amazed that they even fire. If its going to be shot in a semi auto type weapon it gets loaded on the Dillion. My AR's are not tack drivers, they aren't meant to be. I use my AR's to defend my animals, when the wife sounds the alarm (#@$%!) that one of the dogs while taking a dump is being attacked by Coyotes, I hobble to the door pull the AR from its rack over the door stand one legged on the deck take care of the problem, if it groups within a body of a yote at 400yrds then its good to go for its use, all this is usually when im trying to enjoy a morning cup of coffee and only have one leg in which to do this. I full length resize for my AR's and use the OAL that is listed in my books, then make sure that they work in both of the AR's that's my only concern. I don't want to be in a rush and not have the correct ammo for the weapon in hand at that time.

This is all about to change for me and my friend, he has had the Gunsmith put together an AR in the 6.5 Grendel we had about 100 rounds that the Gunsmith used to sight in the scope and gave them to him when he delivered the weapon. I didn't get to shoot to many of them but took a stab at 4 or 5 to let my friend know that the shooting problem was HIS and NOT the weapon's, Greg pointed me into the direction of the 6.5 and it looks to be VERY promising. My wife's reaction when I shot it and turned with a BIG smile was :rolleyes: YET ANOTHER ONE???

This is one reason that I hesitate to get into discussions on this subject. What works for me may or may not work for anyone else. People tend to :-{} about this and that, and I don't want to get into that with something that I love to do and use in something that keeps me sane, (hunting)


BIG
 
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Gage,
You got a ton of good advice here. One thing I didn't see mentioned here. When you go to the range make up a set of wind flags and set them up in a row between the bench and your target. I shoot benchrest and will set 4 (roughly 25 yds apart) for 100yds. It can be as simple as a wood broom handle or dowel stuck in the ground. Get a coat hanger and some flagging tape. Drill a hole in the end of the dowel. Insert the coat hanger and bend 90 degrees. Make sure the wire can swing freely. Hang a 12 - 18" piece of the tape on the end of the wire. There are a lot of ways to make the flags. Mine are on telescoping poles with a flag looking like a weather vane and a length of tape off the back edge and a plastic garden daisy on the front. Have a seat back at your bench and watch for a bit. You will be quite surprised. Everything mentioned above is very important if you want to shoot small groups but if you don't know what the wind is doing it is all for naught.
If the wind blowing left to right the bullet will tend travel to the right and down. 10 - 11 o'clock
If the wind is blowing right to left the bullet will tend to travel up and left. 4-5 o'clock

That and your table manners. You can have the best ammo ever made but if your table manners are lacking your targets will show that.
Try this site for an incredible wealth of information.
www.6mmbr.com
Good luck and have fun.
 
Last edited:
Gage,
You got a ton of good advice here. One thing I didn't see mentioned here. When you go to the range make up a set of wind flags and set them up in a row between the bench and your target. I shoot benchrest and will set 4 (roughly 25 yds apart) for 100yds. It can be as simple as a wood broom handle or dowel stuck in the ground. Get a coat hanger and some flagging tape. Drill a hole in the end of the dowel. Insert the coat hanger and bend 90 degrees. Make sure the wire can swing freely. Hang a 12 - 18" piece of the tape on the end of the wire. There are a lot of ways to make the flags. Mine are on telescoping poles with a flag looking like a weather vane and a length of tape off the back edge and a plastic garden daisy on the front. Have a seat back at your bench and watch for a bit. You will be quite surprised. Everything mentioned above is very important if you want to shoot small groups but if you don't know what the wind is doing it is all for naught.
If the wind blowing left to right the bullet will tend travel to the right and down. 10 - 11 o'clock
If the wind is blowing right to left the bullet will tend to travel up and left. 4-5 o'clock

That and your table manners. You can have the best ammo ever made but if your table manners are lacking your targets will show that.
Try this site for an incredible wealth of information.
www.6mmbr.com
Good luck and have fun.
unless I forgot what a clock face looks like, I think your o`clocks are BACKWARDS.
 
picky, picky, picky, :D

Belay that order...

If the wind is blowing left to right the bullet will tend travel to the right and down. 4-5 o'clock
If the wind is blowing right to left the bullet will tend to travel up and left. 10 - 11 o'clock
 
I think that the little wind flags are neat and all, I especially like the one that looks like a wind mill that whorls around and makes a humming sound, I was given a shooting aid one year as a gift and its fun to play with and makes me look like the All knowing Wizard of OZ. I had to go and get a cut and paste (that I hate to see or use) but I cant remember what all this magnificent handheld piece of technology can do.

The Kestrel Meter 2500 Meter Measures/Features
•Current Wind Speed
•Maximum Wind Gust
•Average Wind Speed
•Air, Water & Snow Temperature
•Wind Chill
•Barometric Pressure
•Altitude
•Real-time clock
•Protective cover with sure-grip overmolding
•Data hold function
•Large easy-to-read display with backlight
•Waterproof and floats
•Innovative design for stability and accuracy in abrupt condition changes
•Patented user-replaceable impeller
•Quick response, external thermistor
•High precision pressure sensor
•Reliable, portable and easy to use
•All instruments and accessories are completely assembled in the USA

It works GREAT!!! the thing that bothers me is that when a guy uses this thing its at the spot that he's taking the reading!! it gives no indication of what is happening some 800yrds away!! the wind may be blowing in one direction on your side of a canyon that your about to shoot across on the other side its blowing in the opposite direction and who knows what's happening in the middle some place around 500yrds?

One of the reasons that is up for argument, this is why I use large lead at high (est) speed possible that it will give the accuracy that I want. When a 250gr bullet is launched from a barrel at near 3k,FPS the first couple of hundred yards don't mean much unless your hunting in a hurricane, im on the side of the argument that believes that the heavy bullet will hold POA better in wind, the other side believes that the lighter is not in the wind as long, An Elk at 800yrd away is going to know he was hit with the 250gr bullet. My shooting bench is most times a backpack on the ground or on a downed tree, not much bench manners in that!

But then again this is all Moot if we are just poking holes in paper. There is not a thing wrong with killing paper, I look at things used in my world of hunting but then again this is all JMO

BIG

PA200039.jpg
 
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Your right Big. What is happening right where you are isn't happening at the other end. Not uncommon to have the 4 flags just in 100yds all doing something different. In the benchrest game I think I have only seen one of those wind meters thingy's once and it was used more for fun. We shoot out to 300 yds. I would love to go longer but alas here in Maine 300 is all that's available. No matter the distance one has to learn to read the wind. I hear it often enough that the wind doesn't do that much. It is an eye opener to sit and watch the flags at a match with 10 or more all shooting at once each with a line of flags out. What's happening on the left is different from the right and front to back as well. All at the same time. There's plenty of manners involved in shooting off a pack or a log. Pushing the gun when you fire, yanking the trigger, is it squared up or tilted and so on.
Sitting at a bench with a few flags out is a good way to get a better understanding of just what the wind can do. One can then take that to the field. The bottom line is practice, practice, practice.
 
Your right Big. What is happening right where you are isn't happening at the other end. Not uncommon to have the 4 flags just in 100yds all doing something different. In the benchrest game I think I have only seen one of those wind meters thingy's once and it was used more for fun. We shoot out to 300 yds. I would love to go longer but alas here in Maine 300 is all that's available. No matter the distance one has to learn to read the wind. I hear it often enough that the wind doesn't do that much. It is an eye opener to sit and watch the flags at a match with 10 or more all shooting at once each with a line of flags out. What's happening on the left is different from the right and front to back as well. All at the same time. There's plenty of manners involved in shooting off a pack or a log. Pushing the gun when you fire, yanking the trigger, is it squared up or tilted and so on.
Sitting at a bench with a few flags out is a good way to get a better understanding of just what the wind can do. One can then take that to the field. The bottom line is practice, practice, practice.
Agreed I use flags, sort of. When looking at game in a scope I can see tree's and weeds moving at the game's end of the spectrum, in the middle I can (sometimes) see the same, and at my end I can feel and see the same flags, or weeds.

Iam fortunate that I have a range within steps of my back door out to 600yrds, I practice from various shooting positions. most of the time I try to use prone I feel best with that but have used trees, rocks, logs, Nephew's shoulder (he moves to much for me)

Most generally the game has no idea what is about to happen so time is not all that critical, Set up is!! Im not very good at judging distance so I use a range finder. I have a ballistic calculator but again I really don't use it. One of the Clients gave it to me for helping him score on an Elk that he had dreamed about.

I would love to practice more than I do but with my Elk rifle. I don't get all that many rounds before it starts to loose accuracy, its part of the price of high speed projectiles.

BIG
 
picky, picky, picky, :D

Belay that order...

If the wind is blowing left to right the bullet will tend travel to the right and down. 4-5 o'clock
If the wind is blowing right to left the bullet will tend to travel up and left. 10 - 11 o'clock

I'd have re-phrased that to read that the right-left wind does not drop as much/fast. That is where math gets fun. Wind speed, projectile velocity and weight (spin rate if you are really anal), and distance are your variables. Regretfully I don't have the knowledge or training yet, so it's a 2 shot (presuming I see the impact of #1) to do my final figure for holdover (which is a PITA with a .224 55gr @ 200+).

Big, with your .338, I'd venture that even at 600 your drop is not all that much. Big and heavy does help fight the wind, but it also has more surface for it to be affected by wind. A double edged sword unless you took a couple of physics classes and have the whole inertia/kinetic energy thing figured.
 
Big, with your .338, I'd venture that even at 600 your drop is not all that much. Big and heavy does help fight the wind, but it also has more surface for it to be affected by wind. A double edged sword unless you took a couple of physics classes and have the whole inertia/kinetic energy thing figured.

Don't have the chart for 600yrds but at 500yrds its - 26.4"

Sticks Its not that I really care about the Big and heavy vs small and fast issue , its that im stingy and don't share with others well, by shooting Big and heavy with lots of noise and recoil most want to opt out of shooting it and its all mine :-laf

Really I do care about the issue, I believe we owe it to the animal to put it down as quickly as we can and in my experience Big and Heavy tends to do it better
 
Gage,
You got a ton of good advice here. One thing I didn't see mentioned here. When you go to the range make up a set of wind flags and set them up in a row between the bench and your target. I shoot benchrest and will set 4 (roughly 25 yds apart) for 100yds. It can be as simple as a wood broom handle or dowel stuck in the ground. Get a coat hanger and some flagging tape. Drill a hole in the end of the dowel. Insert the coat hanger and bend 90 degrees. Make sure the wire can swing freely. Hang a 12 - 18" piece of the tape on the end of the wire. There are a lot of ways to make the flags. Mine are on telescoping poles with a flag looking like a weather vane and a length of tape off the back edge and a plastic garden daisy on the front. Have a seat back at your bench and watch for a bit. You will be quite surprised. Everything mentioned above is very important if you want to shoot small groups but if you don't know what the wind is doing it is all for naught.
If the wind blowing left to right the bullet will tend travel to the right and down. 10 - 11 o'clock
If the wind is blowing right to left the bullet will tend to travel up and left. 4-5 o'clock

That and your table manners. You can have the best ammo ever made but if your table manners are lacking your targets will show that.
Try this site for an incredible wealth of information.
www.6mmbr.com
Good luck and have fun.

SG I am patiently reading all that is offered. I know that these thoughts and other sources have made a difference as my groups have changed substantially since I have learned better "table manners". I always start from the premise that it is me that is to fault until I can determine otherwise. I learned this as a young man long ago from a couple old timers who would often smile when I claimed some piece of equipment was to fault. Most, but not all led me on a socratic journey to understanding. Some not so much as it was more like a verbal assault on my genetic history:)

Thank you for the tip on the flags, more serious I get the more I have to do to get the shot. Spring comes around and I shall do flags on my range.

I lurk on 6mm, LRH and a couple others. You are absolutely correct that there is a ton of info there! Only wish that I could contribute... Maybe some day :)
 
Gage,
Everybody has something to offer and to learn. It may come by the questions you ask. Don't lurk, ask and ye shall receive. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask.
If you haven't found it try benchrest central.com I tried to get a few pics up last night but it kept failing for some reason. I'll try again tonight.
I shoot 2 guns for my benchrest. A Rem 600 Mohawk w/a Krieger barrel in 30x47Lapua. It's a 6.5 x 47 necked up to 30 cal and a Stolle Kodiak in 30BR. That's a 6mmBR Lapua case necked up to 30. Both have 2 oz triggers. I just got it at the end of the season and need to sort out a proper load for it before spring.
 
It do makes you pay attention hence the good table manners.;) They definitely aren't a field gun. But many times the flags turn the way you want for a split second and a quick bit of pressure on the trigger gets you what you want, sometimes...
 
Flying_gage -

It's been a bit over a month. Have you taken your 5r back out with some home brew yet? I know in your post earlier you were talking spring, but no reason to wait in my mind.
 
Hey all,
If anyone is interested, Midway USA has Plano All Weather hard cases in 36" or 42" lengths for 50% off. I just got a 42" that holds my Colt Match Target HBAR with a fixed stock perfectly. It has the 1" removable foam cubes so you can custom fit the outline of your firearm. Plenty of room for extras too. It is a really nice case and the deal can't be beat. 42" = 59.99

I'm not intending to hijack the thread but I just got mine last night and was really impressed so I thought I'd send out a heads up.
 

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