Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) The Search for Max H.P. 24 Valve

[RacinDuallie]

From what I have researched and read up on, with modifications done to the 24 Valve cylinder head by way of removing the stock "cast-in" intake plenum by means of milling- one would be able to effectively port and polish the intake side of the intake ports that feed each cylinder for vastly improved cylinder pressurizatition and intake stroke flow that is sped up.

Take a look at the stock cylinder head with intake plenum off, one would see that cylinder # 1 & # 6 are kind of restricted in terms of flow... .

Has this theory been proven on a dyno with an E. G. T. probe installed into each exhaust port on the exhuast manifold?



IMHO- With all the cylinders getting a better balanced and improved intake flow- one would guess that the engine now is working even more efficiently and effectively. Yes you will need to design and build a bolt on intake. But if this is properly thought out and planned beforehand, one could expect to see approx. 75-150 MORE H. P. ,and lower E. G. T. 's using the properly matched injectors and turbo(s) for this build up.....



B. T. W. - I'm not some big shop or company out to keep every little secret discovered to myself... I'm just alittle guy in a driveway lookin for more power to use at the track.



Any thoughts, or comments with my hypothesis here?



Maybe some of the BIGGER boys would like to offer some insight... .

to go with the newfound air delivery...



To all T. I. A.

 

[JoshPeters]

Talk to Scot Bentz with the Diesel Dragster..... last I looked in his photo album... ... they were doing exactly that!



Josh

 

[justinp20012500]

I have a couple of crap 24v heads that I want to shave the cast plenum off. Make an aluminum bolt on one.



Another problem is the push rod casings are right in the way. You can smooth the flow, but can't do much more.



As for the theory, I think #6 has always ran the hottest EGT wise.



Heres the link http://cumminsracing.com/ In the upper right hand corner click on the Tech Page.



Scott Bentz and his team are first class individuals.



Justin

 

[pwerwagn]

I think your theory was in fact discussed either on the board here or in a TDR issure. Not in regards to power, but I remember something where someone took 6 egt gauges and read the temp of each cylinder. I recall that 1 and 6 were always hotter. The test was in regards to the banks intake, and the test showed that the banks intake (if I remember right) did help to even out the temps a little.

--Jeff

 

[RDLeader]

I could understand why #6 would run so hot, it's the farthest away form the air horn right? Working on my spare head now, I would like to cut the intake off and redesign another one, but time could be a problem there. I am however considering relocating the air horn itself to the middle of the intake manifold so that air would at least be distributed more evenly. What's your opinons on that?



Roman

 

[RacinDuallie]

I could understand why #6 would run so hot, it's the farthest away form the air horn right? Working on my spare head now, I would like to cut the intake off and redesign another one, but time could be a problem there. I am however considering relocating the air horn itself to the middle of the intake manifold so that air would at least be distributed more evenly. What's your opinons on that?



Roman

Seems like a lot of us little guys out here are also looking for that last bit of H. P.

RDLeader if you also look at the #1 cylinder it too is restricted-though not as bad as #6, even #5 doesnt have the greatest inlet.

And in order to put the horn in the middle you'll have to relocate the hard injection lines that route on top of the intake plenum cover..... If you go that way- I don't see any benifit. IMHO..... I'm just a little guy though... :-laf

I can't understand why some of the BIG guys out there have not come to the plate here if there is power to be had here then why has NO-ONE come out with the answer... .....



Like I said I'm just a guy in my driveway not some big shop- that has access to exotic- machine-equipment- dynos- and BIG RESEARCH BUDGETS that are kept so secret that little guys like us can't benefit off of it- heck they do some research(BANKS) then discover something and then do NOTHING about their results!!! Oh they do keep it to themselves to use- but what about the guy who purchases the parts that they market or deem acceptable for the 'general public' ( I've been told this by Banks)

Whats a little guy gonna do? Seems to me if they found something there why not get it out there for ALL to benefit from- even the companies selling the parts will benefit. ???



If the theory is in fact a proven one- then is the assumption of gainin up to 150 h. p. correct ( providing the supporting cast of parts are upgraded for this modification? )Then well this guy in his driveway is gonna figure out how to grab them ponies laying there waiting to be used...

 

[justinp20012500]

If you are going to move the stock air horn why could you use a banks twin ram??



Has anyone ever tried to see if it would fit on the 24v?



Seems feasible?







Justin

 

[Timbeaux38]

Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that Banks already addessed this issue with the 24v intake on the sidewinderand was planning on marketing a intake that flowed more evenly- the only crummy thing is that you have to permanently modify the head-

 

[sbentz]

Like I said I'm just a guy in my driveway not some big shop- that has access to exotic- machine-equipment- dynos- and BIG RESEARCH BUDGETS that are kept so secret that little guys like us can't benefit off of it- heck they do some research(BANKS) then discover something and then do NOTHING about their results!!! Oh they do keep it to themselves to use- but what about the guy who purchases the parts that they market or deem acceptable for the 'general public' ( I've been told this by Banks)

That is the reason for my web site and my postings. There needs to be more sharing of info, and less "Secrets".



PS> We are just like the rest of you guys, bucks down folks, just trying to have a little fun. I love it when we make the big buck teams scratch their heads on "HOW THE HECK DID THEY DO THAT"???..... Just backyard engineering. Like the redneck's famous last words, "watch this!"

 

[RacinDuallie]

! Oo. ! Oo. !



Guys!!! At work today I was thinking the situation over with the restriction of the # 6 cylinder feeding, and somehow another nagging problem came to light ! This problem probally has tons of postings in this forum, has even caused a wide spread panic among the CTD owners in the know... .

Yes the dreaded ... ... ... ... ... ..... (DRUMROLL PLEASE)... ... ... ...

53 Cracking Block Problem!!





Could the higher heat- from the restricted cylinders be the root of this cracking issue?

If in fact the 53 block has a higher nickel content this imbalance of heat throughout the block plus the torsional forces when under operation could very well be from the restricted cylinder.....

Why is it if you look at the heads there are alot of plugs in there that close off the cooling passages inthe core of the head? An awful lot and look by the port area (Exhaust side) but look from under the valve cover rows of em!!

Seems like Cummins Engineers knew that there would be insufficent cylinder feeding in the 5. 9 engine for our trucks and they tried to correct that by giving them gigantic water passages... ... .





So now you have the entire cylinder block running under load with one cylinder hotter than the others and the 53 alledgedly High Nickel block- with Boost Pressures happening... ... .



Why do they make the bottom end girdles? Bottom ends moving around? HMMMMMMMMM any of this touching off any



If you look at it like I did- do you come to the same conclusion?



Kinda reminds me of the 1960's A A Q A- Big Block Mopars - Run like scalded cat- push em over the line and C R A C K !!









Just a little guy- in my driveway- not some big exotic shop









Oo. Anybody wanna tackle that one????

 

[RDLeader]

Duallie, that sounds feasible to me for sure. Where do all these 53 blocks crack at though, anyone know? Get an average and go from there.



Justin, that was what I was thinking. Something like a twin ram. I am thinking along the lines of another intake sliced/diced welded onto the stocker at say ummm a 30-45 degree angle to the right. That would put it closer to #6 and I "think" would distribute flow more evenly. Would then have to reroute the lines and cut out the manifold to accept it. How's this idea sound? If one was going all out for every last bit of horsepower, then cutting the intake off would be the best idea. For my truck though I don't think it is necessary, as much as I want to. I want to make sure it's buttoned up before IRP for the big party!



Roman

 

[TractorNut]

I know you guys are talking about cumbustion temps and EGt's... but in some of your JD engines. . (4V engines) we are using a water return that routes coolant between cylinders 3 and 4 back to the thermostate housing. . This allows a little less heat to build in the back cylinders...

#ad


Its a little hard to see in this pic. . but its behind the injection lines. . above the rail...

Bryan

 

[COMP461]

I have been working on my new head for about 9 months now , we sliced the intake off of a scrap , and worked the ports , I have water jetted that head every which way possible to look as casting thickness, and have seen a big gain in air flow , but the best news to be had is in valve shape, and valve angles , the last 25 numbers are totally in that area, I have vatted the pieces of head and will post pictures this weekend , don’t expect to see the valves lol. The 24 valve head is really a better head in many more ways then one, then the 12 valve, but both heads are pathetic in comparison to any real flowing head. So we have to work around the poor ports and work every angle, no pun intended, or was that a subliminal Freudian slip. I have done a lot of Data logging of the racing Cummins, and now have a EGT’s in every port, and pressures in several areas. The new valve train and other updates on this motor as I further its developmental curve with be on the cutting edge , and I don’t see any problem turning the little motor well over 6500 and making power close to 6000. The flame front propagation of diesel is not that much slower then a gas motor , and I see a diesel turning even higher if the breathing ability was there.

 

[justinp20012500]

Duallie, that sounds feasible to me for sure. Where do all these 53 blocks crack at though, anyone know? Get an average and go from there.



Justin, that was what I was thinking. Something like a twin ram. I am thinking along the lines of another intake sliced/diced welded onto the stocker at say ummm a 30-45 degree angle to the right. That would put it closer to #6 and I "think" would distribute flow more evenly. Would then have to reroute the lines and cut out the manifold to accept it. How's this idea sound? If one was going all out for every last bit of horsepower, then cutting the intake off would be the best idea. For my truck though I don't think it is necessary, as much as I want to. I want to make sure it's buttoned up before IRP for the big party!



Roman

The blocks crack right above the big freeze plugs at the back of the block on the passenger side. It is a really big problem in the blue bird busses.



The 53 block had only 2-3mm thick out block walls there. Cavitation could be to blame, but I blame it on a pour cast. The 56 & 55 block have a 6-7 mm wall there. I don't think there has been a single case of a 55 or a 56 block cracking.



I like the idea of cutting another horn to weld to the stocker. I might have to send one to you to try.



Might as well cut the intake off the old head you have. Then you can do mine after you practice :-laf .





Heck, I will send you my head and you can cut the crap out of it.



I never did ask you, did you ever get a bunch of picks of that head you hogged out?? I would like to see it.





Justin

 

[Lucas5477]

My friends 01 with a 57 block cracked last month..... I think it was in the same place that the other ones have cracked. Since I'm 2000 miles away form the pickup I have not seen it. 60k on it 2 years ago before boming started 90k on it now with about 500 hp last dyno I saw and water is coming out the side of the block... ... No its not a head gasket its lower then that and you can see the crack in the block... ...



Lucas

 

[jwilliams3]

57 block?? No such animal (and I would know).

 

[RacinDuallie]

Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that Banks already addessed this issue with the 24v intake on the sidewinderand was planning on marketing a intake that flowed more evenly- the only crummy thing is that you have to permanently modify the head-

I was told BY BANKS that there is no way they would release a modified cylinder head and the redesigned intake that they casted for the sidewinder project- not for the 'general public'.

I tried to obtain one, in kit form , rough casting, anything and they said NO!

 

[RacinDuallie]

I could understand why #6 would run so hot, it's the farthest away form the air horn right? Working on my spare head now, I would like to cut the intake off and redesign another one, but time could be a problem there. I am however considering relocating the air horn itself to the middle of the intake manifold so that air would at least be distributed more evenly. What's your opinons on that?





IMHO- the actual location of the air horn is not the problem- it's after the horn- in the plenum itself... look at the way it necks down in the plenum- THAT'S where this secret lies. Get rid of that plenum with one that's designed for F L O W !

That's why I hate it when the B I G boys out there find something thru their BIG BUDGET RESEARCHES- and then use it for themselves and not market it for the people that buy their other parts pkgs. and keep them in buisness

 

[ob1kobi]

What other big boys, outside of Banks, have solved this? Its just not cost efffective. Most people, including most on these boards, would not be willing to pay the money a head like that would cost, even if it was produced.

 

[Hammer]

I myself have seen 883hp out of a 24 valve drug equipped truck on the dyno and 789hp out of a 12 valve on a dyno. IF you would get to look under any of the bigger HP sled pulling rides they run no special intakes with their high HP motors. So I agree with Kobi,how cost efficent is it,because if it was there would be a TON of aftermarket parts to support those who wanted to do it. I do not feel for the everyday driver/occasional puller/occasional puller the cost to do this would equal the performance gains. A major cost is design and having the sheet metal intake built to withstand high boost pressures,. Trust me when I say this,if you have ever had one done you would understand what I say. Most of the drag racers can back me up on that as to the costs incurred when you have one built..... Andy