Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) The Search for Max H.P. 24 Valve

[RacinDuallie]

Fellas-
I'm going for Patent #'s !!!

Got info from my *connections*

they confirmed that the casting can be done!!!!


The future looks bright!!

 

[RacinDuallie]

Oo. Testing The RAMIFOLD is gonna be sweet... ... ..... !Oo. !

And who knows what else is on the horizon, working on *other* projects as well!!

Research, ya gotta love it!

 

[COMP461]

the casting will be done for this fall. we have worked in conjunction with one of the best head casting places , the head will me a 24 valve /CR and flow about 25 to 30 better ,and be a replacement head. This head will be a total bolt on head .

 

[RacinDuallie]

Can someone please interpet this? This is what I'm talking about... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... #@$%! Why a person is allowed to do these things on the forum is beyond me... ...

 

[aharrow]

Well duallie I thought this was a public forum that is why people are allowed to post there own ideas, thoughts and opinions it sounds to me like you think this is your own private forum to talk about the things you think pertain to this thread but I thought it was (the search for the max h. p. 24 valve) and Comp has proven that he has one of the max h. p. 24 valve so I think anything he has to contribute to this thread is appropriate so don't think you are the only one giving information out there I am glad to here about any new innovations to this motor no matter who is doing them Aharrow

 

[RacinDuallie]

the casting will be done for this fall. we have worked in conjunction with one of the best head casting places , the head will me a 24 valve /CR and flow about 25 to 30 better ,and be a replacement head. This head will be a total bolt on head .

O. k. aharrow then can you translate this in english-
I don't understand Ebonics too well? Something about a head? (I think) a ready to go head?

after trying to figure out Componics- my head hurts-
does the spell check work on translating posts?

 

[aharrow]

Well let me try I think he is in the process of casting a new cylinder head that will flow better than the factory one and be a direct bolt on item instead of hundreds of labor intensive hours to make the factory one work but that is how i interpret the post hope this helps Aharrow

 

[RacinDuallie]

Fellas,
At this point in time in this Thread I started origonally for the guys out there like myself, in their garage doing their own work and modifications- I'm starting to wonder if I should sit back and close down my garage door... ... ... ... .


Yes this is a public forum, but to be invaded with an egotistical jacka** who's motivation on this website is his own self promotion- and promotion of his fellow cronies- Who's part's are questionable at best- and read-(damned expensive) This was not the purpose of this Thread... ... .

You can bet your Visegrips that this head that is spoken about will be priced in the stratosphere well out of the range of most of us, I estimate well above 10,000. 00- is pointless- my thoughts wonder if there is other *hands* in the cookie jar when prices are hinted at for these *front-line*- *cutting edge* parts that are *plugged* and *plugged* and *plugged* away on this Thread here by another member... ... .

I for one can't afford to part with my hardearned dollars that way- which is why I do most of my own work in my own little 2 car garage and driveway... ... ... ...
I have what I have because I break my a** working, researching, testing,and modifing my own vehicles with my own money- not someone elses money or vehicles... .....

Which was my origonal intent with this Thread- to help out OTHER guys like me in their garages that are stuck on the H. P. plateau that they can't seem to get off of... ...

So for now I'm gonna sit back and see what type of *wisdom* comes posted on this forum- and let's see how much of this *wisdom* can relate to the rest of us guys in our garages... ... ... .

If there is demands for me to continue on with this thread then please post them away here and we'll see how I react after a couple of days of reading the funny papers.....

Such a shame- for someones bloated head to get in the way of information being traded here that has no bearing to them, I don't know how many of you guys out there have trucks that are trailered to the race track- I drive mine on the street- I use mine to haul- I use mine to race, and I don't have to hand the keys over to the owner at the end of the day because I am the owner!!
Maybe I need a few days in the garage to gather my thoughts, but for now... ... ... .....

I think we're getting low on milk... ... ... . :-laf ... ... ... .

 

[RacinDuallie]

Comp has proven that he has one of the max h. p. 24 valve so I think anything he has to contribute to this thread is appropriate so don't think you are the only one giving information out there I am glad to here about any new innovations to this motor no matter who is doing them Aharrow

You must be one of the few that find anything meaningful and useful that Compy *plugs*
I for one have learned that when Compy speaks- I grab hold of my wallet!!


EXPENSIVE!!

I never said I was the ONLY one giving information- but to counter your point how much info that was spoken from Comp have YOU used with your truck?

And furthermore ones days could very well be numbered... ... ...
You never know what lurks in a small 2 car garage somewhere out there- knock someone off their high horse pile of #@%*!!






now I really need to go out and get some milk... . later ... HAMMER DOWN... ... ... ... ... .

 

[R-N-R]

The funny thing is that your ranting and raving about Comp has become more annoying than Comp's ranting and raving about himself. Comp uses larger fonts, but you basically post much of the same junk that you complain about him doing. I tried you on my ignore list for a while but missed reading about your expertise and innovation. So now i just glean through all the crap for the good info. , then I go back to the crap for the pure entertainment value of two intelligent and talented adults engaged in an idiot's battle on the internet. This stuff is better than any big time wrestling match that I have ever seen and much better than any soap opera that I have ever heard of...



RD, it would be great if you would just put Comp on your ignore list since he irritates you to much, and please keep on sharing your expertise. There are not too many people with your knowledge and willingness to innovate posting on the TDR anymore. It would be a real shame to lose you because on one egomaniac's antics.



In Comps defense... . if you got, it flaunt it! Put that on steroids and your understand Comp! I actually have come to appreciate Comp's ability to completely ignore personal slams and keep right on posting. :-laf



I am damn glad that you guys are willing to share with us, therefore I am also both willing and able to ignore personalities defects to benefit from your knowledge and activity.



Have A Great Day,

R-N-R

 

[COMP461]

The head casting that we have been working on for the last 6 months will be a 24 valve/CR . this head is a total bolt on with every boss and bolt hole. The direction for this head was aimed at the street guy , and I have pushed very had to keep it from being a one off race head. The ports flow around 30 to 40 % better then the stock head depending on which casting you have , most of you aren’t aware there are several casting of stock heads , some are ok , and some are really crap, one of those little tid-bits of info that you might want to know. Doc was the one that fronted the money to do this head , and when the castings are complete he will market them, the foundry doing the head is very well known for heads . the expected price will be in the range of a new casting from Cummins .

Another project on mine is a street hi ratio rocker , that is in the development stage ,but is definitely coming along quickly, this will also be a bolt on also , and is coming from a major manufactory, this project is nothing to do with my race program, the rockers on my new motor are one off system that have more in common with a Pro Stock motor then a diesel. I could have just concentrated on my race motors and said forget the street guy , but I don’t do things that way . sure Dr Performance will get to market this head and rocker system, but at least it will be available to the average guy , and not just a few with big bucks. The cost of developing these new heads would buy a real good new diesel truck and some. So the next time some one wants to bash my efforts , remember with out Doc’s money , it would have never happened.



On the port work going on this thread . I have spent a many hours on the flow bench , and have conferred with several on the Cummins head . the head sucks big time , but that is the restraint we have to live with for now. The reason for removing the manifold is more then manifold restriction , but the ability to port the head . the stock head flows around 165 cfm. With the best bowl port job that number goes to at best 200 cfm, a significant gain , but not as big as when you remove the intake and work the ports, the flow will go up in the 250 to 260 cfm range . now don’t confuse port work with hogging and just removing metal. Leaving a shinny surface . much damage can be done to the potential flow by some one that dose not understand the principals of air flow and creates turbulence causing conditions , it is not quit as critical in a diesel because of the absents of fuel in the flow. But the ultimate potential is missed in a lot of back yard projects. There are at least 20 cfm in just valve shapes and valve jobs , the old 3 angle valve job is ancient history compares to a blended valve job with infinite angles achieving the right couture to the back side of the valve.





As compition eliminator racers, that is what we thrive on , the ability to take a given set of rules and find a way to make it work , its called innovation, and ingenuity. The experiences I have been thru in helping developing the sometimes weird gas motor comp combinations is my strength in the diesel world. The reason for racing weird combinations is apparent to people in the comp ranks. Any one with money can buy a great Pro Stock motor or comp small block and race it , if they have really big bucks . If not, you must have the ability to think out side the box . these unique people in comp run inline six’s, four banger’s V6’s , turbo motor’s, Subaru flat six’s and many more really weird combinations . or maybe even a diesel ,This type guy will make a niche for him self in the record book and on the race track. The bucks up guys don’t want to have the head aches associated with the weird motors . so maybe you don’t like the way I come off , or the guy that gives me the assets to build and race the Quickest diesel truck. But in the long run like it of not everyone will benefit from the work going on.

 

[JLackman]

Comp461 is right on airflow vs boost. I liked how someone put it - "boost is a measurement of intake restriction". Just for reference look at what cummins sized cylinders in a gas engine need for head flow. 360ci in six cylinders is equal to a 480ci 8 cylinder engine. You need a LOT of head flow to support a 480ci gas race engine in fact a whole lot more than 260cfm. The 2002 EngineMasters 470ci engines had intake flows in the 350-400cfm range.



If you are interested in improving air flow this is a great forum;



Speedtalk Engine Forum



Darin Morgan and guys of his caliber are regular posters there. If you want to see how intense head work gets search something like " valve seat angles ".



IMO the guys that will get the most out of the Cummins will be paying attention to what has already been done with race gas engines, this is why the gas engine stuff we see posted is worth posting. A CI engine is more similar to a SI engine than it is different.

 

[JLackman]

Try searching " sonic choke " in that Speedtalk forum for some enlightenment on what is probably happening in a 200-250 cfm port with 80lbs boost.



Simply adding more boost to a bad port design is a sledgehammer-cave man approach.

 

[TxDieselKid]

I never said I was the ONLY one giving information- but to counter your point how much info that was spoken from Comp have YOU used with your truck?

Apparently you have never asked Comp anything about his setup, or tried to learn anything from him. He has been more then willing to give out information that he has learned. All you see is it being a plug, but where has he asked anyone to buy something?



Is he annoying at times with his "put up or shutup aditude? Yes, and I have told him so.



PUT HIM ON "IGNORE"

I'm starting to wonder if I should sit back and close down my garage door... ... ... ... .

Why? I failed to see any point in the post explaining why.

Simply adding more boost to a bad port design is a sledgehammer-cave man approach.

I agree 100%. I have heard people say, "well we'll just turn the boost up some for the new fuel we found. " I have a hard time thinking this is the right method, but for a lack of better things to do, it is the only way right now.

The funny thing is that your ranting and raving about Comp has become more annoying than Comp's ranting and raving about himself.

Bingo.

 

[RacinDuallie]

The head casting that we have been working on for the last 6 months will be a 24 valve/CR . this head is a total bolt on with every boss and bolt hole. The direction for this head was aimed at the street guy , and I have pushed very had to keep it from being a one off race head. The ports flow around 30 to 40 % better then the stock head depending on which casting you have , most of you aren’t aware there are several casting of stock heads , some are ok , and some are really crap, one of those little tid-bits of info that you might want to know. Doc was the one that fronted the money to do this head , and when the castings are complete he will market them, the foundry doing the head is very well known for heads . the expected price will be in the range of a new casting from Cummins .
Another project on mine is a street hi ratio rocker , that is in the development stage ,but is definitely coming along quickly, this will also be a bolt on also , and is coming from a major manufactory, this project is nothing to do with my race program, the rockers on my new motor are one off system that have more in common with a Pro Stock motor then a diesel. I could have just concentrated on my race motors and said forget the street guy , but I don’t do things that way . sure Dr Performance will get to market this head and rocker system, but at least it will be available to the average guy , and not just a few with big bucks. The cost of developing these new heads would buy a real good new diesel truck and some. So the next time some one wants to bash my efforts , remember with out Doc’s money , it would have never happened.

On the port work going on this thread . I have spent a many hours on the flow bench , and have conferred with several on the Cummins head . the head sucks big time , but that is the restraint we have to live with for now. The reason for removing the manifold is more then manifold restriction , but the ability to port the head . the stock head flows around 165 cfm. With the best bowl port job that number goes to at best 200 cfm, a significant gain , but not as big as when you remove the intake and work the ports, the flow will go up in the 250 to 260 cfm range . now don’t confuse port work with hogging and just removing metal. Leaving a shinny surface . much damage can be done to the potential flow by some one that dose not understand the principals of air flow and creates turbulence causing conditions , it is not quit as critical in a diesel because of the absents of fuel in the flow. But the ultimate potential is missed in a lot of back yard projects. There are at least 20 cfm in just valve shapes and valve jobs , the old 3 angle valve job is ancient history compares to a blended valve job with infinite angles achieving the right couture to the back side of the valve.


As compition eliminator racers, that is what we thrive on , the ability to take a given set of rules and find a way to make it work , its called innovation, and ingenuity. The experiences I have been thru in helping developing the sometimes weird gas motor comp combinations is my strength in the diesel world. The reason for racing weird combinations is apparent to people in the comp ranks. Any one with money can buy a great Pro Stock motor or comp small block and race it , if they have really big bucks . If not, you must have the ability to think out side the box . these unique people in comp run inline six’s, four banger’s V6’s , turbo motor’s, Subaru flat six’s and many more really weird combinations . or maybe even a diesel ,This type guy will make a niche for him self in the record book and on the race track. The bucks up guys don’t want to have the head aches associated with the weird motors . so maybe you don’t like the way I come off , or the guy that gives me the assets to build and race the Quickest diesel truck. But in the long run like it of not everyone will benefit from the work going on.

Greg,

Wow!!:--) !! I didn't know you had it in you!! This is the first post that I have read from you like this- why can't you ALWAYS do this? I'm questioning my opinion about you right now .
Oh yes it is amazing what some 'select cuts' in the valveseats and valves will do for flow numbers- it's also amazing how some cuts work well for flow but add 1 cut and suddenly the flow changes for the worst- actually pretty neat thing to watch in person. - But when you tap into that *special selection * flow can be enhanced GREATLY. Maybe I used the term 'hogged-out' in the wrong way. I too know afew things about proper flow characteristics within a port chamber- (although honestly my first 'attempt' wasn't too successful, nor my second-but the more 'played with' porting the better I became) Wouldn't it be nice if you would even be ABLE to hog out the stock heads ports? Truth is you really can't!! You can improve upon what's there But to be able to really hog it out we do need a new *meatier* cylinder head- To look at the stock port they give us it's amazing to me the power they can put out!! The port is enemic at best- such a shame!! To really have a great flowing head we'll need the longer valves- gets that spring seat up nice and out of the way- for bigger-meatier ports.
You mention valve angles- this must mean there is some kind of chamber now/ or offsetting the cuts on the valveseats with a slight change in angle of valve- interesting... .
Never said that shiny port surface is the final product- but if you look at the port- it is way less resticted then when I started- I still have to flip it over to get a better angle in there- they are dang tiny to work-in these stock ports- you also have to watch out for flow shear- you have to watch, it is a lot better for flow not to shear off a sharp edge- example- when 2 angles meet in a port it's better to leave a rounded off edge than a sharp edge- the air flow tends to flow smoothly over the rounded edge than the sharp edge- you get shear it will really mess with the flow characteristics with-in a port.
Nice to hear someone finally came to their senses on the valvetrain- I want to see increased rocker ratio also- hang those valve open more- another improvement for flow. That's good to hear because none of the valvetrain manafacturers wanted to touch diesels- another shame!!
30-40 percent improvement in flow is good but what is this compared to a stock port or a fully ported-prepped port? That's the REAL question here- Take a stock port flow it- then port it and prep it and you could improve the flow pretty close to the 30-40 percent you speak of if not better. . Let's take you quote for example 165cfm stock- and remove intake- port 250-260 cfm
that seems to be a significant increase??

Now THIS is the kind of posts that I would really like to see here!! I could go on for hours and hours but- gotta work in the shop too... ...
Greg this was different this time... ... . strange even... ... .
Not the usual barrage- this was

 

[COMP461]

The heads mention are intended to be around 230 to 240 out of the box ,and still retain a bolt on configuration. When these heads are ported you should be able to achieve numbers close to 280 or 300 cfm, but to achieve these numbers you will need to lift the valve closer to . 600



Here are some numbers from a really good head with no intake as of yet on a 4. 00 bore

My new motor will have a some what bigger bore

LIFT... ... ... ..... IN... ... ... ... ... ..... EX

OPEN... ... ..... 279. 2... ... ... ... ... . 257. 6

. 050... ... ... ..... 49. 3... ... ... ... ..... 40. 7

. 100... ... ... ..... 97. 4... ... ... ... ..... 76. 9

. 150... ... ... ... . 129. 1... ... ... ... ... 115. 6

. 200... ... ... ... . 152. 7... ... ... ... ... 139. 3

. 250... ... ... ... . 178. 2... ... ... ... ... 166. 9

. 300... ... ... ... . 198. 5... ... ... ... ... 185. 6

. 350... ... ... ... . 219. 4... ... ... ... ... 195. 8

. 400... ... ... ... . 229. 7... ... ... ... ... 205. 5

. 450... ... ... ... . 236. 1... ... ... ... ... 218. 2

. 500... ... ... ... . 242. 4... ... ... ... ... 228. 8

. 550... ... ... ... . 247. 0... ... ... ... ... 229. 5

. 600... ... ... ... . 252. 2... ... ... ... ... 232. 7

 

[RacinDuallie]

The heads mention are intended to be around 230 to 240 out of the box ,and still retain a bolt on configuration. When these heads are ported you should be able to achieve numbers close to 280 or 300 cfm, but to achieve these numbers you will need to lift the valve closer to . 600

Here are some numbers from a really good head with no intake as of yet on a 4. 00 bore
My new motor will have a some what bigger bore
LIFT... ... ... ..... IN... ... ... ... ... ..... EX
OPEN... ... ..... 279. 2... ... ... ... ... . 257. 6
. 050... ... ... ..... 49. 3... ... ... ... ..... 40. 7
. 100... ... ... ..... 97. 4... ... ... ... ..... 76. 9
. 150... ... ... ... . 129. 1... ... ... ... ... 115. 6
. 200... ... ... ... . 152. 7... ... ... ... ... 139. 3
. 250... ... ... ... . 178. 2... ... ... ... ... 166. 9
. 300... ... ... ... . 198. 5... ... ... ... ... 185. 6
. 350... ... ... ... . 219. 4... ... ... ... ... 195. 8
. 400... ... ... ... . 229. 7... ... ... ... ... 205. 5
. 450... ... ... ... . 236. 1... ... ... ... ... 218. 2
. 500... ... ... ... . 242. 4... ... ... ... ... 228. 8
. 550... ... ... ... . 247. 0... ... ... ... ... 229. 5
. 600... ... ... ... . 252. 2... ... ... ... ... 232. 7

Are these numbers posted here from a stocker head!??

These flow numbers posted here don't seem to look right for an aftermarket 'NEW' head What would be the port volume for the head #'s you have listed here-

Also if a new head is being developed am I to assume that valve size has been investigated also- (slightly larger dia. )

Such a shame- It would be awesome if we had a head that would yield higher #'s
on both ends-(intake-exhaust) But also keep the lo lift numbers respectable too because that is where most of us are with our streeters.

Being able to have good flow numbers is fine but *where* these good flow numbers are is important too ( especially for us dual purpose drivers) Having good flow #'s earlier off in the valve lift event is what gives us streeters benifits and higher up in the valve lift event benifits -when we plant our foot into it real good like on the highway or dragstrip... ... ...

This *is* weird Greg... ... ... .

 

[jabird]

Nice to see this post finally had a group hug

 

[RacinDuallie]

These numbers represent stock head flow numbers

Lift intake exhaust
. 100 92 80

. 200 147 145

. 300 155 170

. 400 159 176



These numbers represent a head that is ported but without removing the intake plenum ( basically your run of the mill ported head that you can purchase from any of the shops)


Lift intake exhaust
. 100 100 102

. 200 164 173

. 300 179 205

. 400 190 219



Flow numbers with intake removed and the intake side ported ??
I don't know yet to be flowed.

I use these low lift numbers to represent a stock cam profile( street)

These numbers do show that there is improvement to be had on our stocker head
with alittle work numbers like this can be had- NOT GREAT NUMBERS but still an improvement from what we get stock to work with. Results vary- and there is still room for improvment within these numbers.

By the way the flow bench numbers are different from bench to bench and then you have conditions that apply and correction factors ect. ect.

And I can only work with what I have here in terms of heads- But the numbers that Greg is posting seem to represent a good start- but he needs to list some on the variables-
How many cuts on the valves- ( big thing when flow is discussed)
Port Volumes- gives me an idea on HOW BIG these new ports are.

Were these numbers tested to simulate Boosted conditions or the typical draw thru type tests?

I'd like to get my hands on a rough head like he's mentioning to see for myself what the exact cirumstances we have to work with.....

 

[RacinDuallie]

Nice to see this post finally had a group hug

When the conversation can be like this- then yes I agree.

If this keeps up I'm sure people will be sitting back and enjoying themselves reading posts on this fine website.

I might just have to extend my working-dirty-greasy hand out for a truce? Posts like these can make for an enjoyable time for all!!Oo.

What's up? jabird!!