Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

the countershaft oil guide and any shims made it back in right

One shim on the main shaft no shims on the counter, counter oil guide was not removed. pics below of my clean up and prep.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Further how many miles on this NV5600 and how does it shift? IMO people change clutches and forget the trans syncro's and bearings also wear out. Esp. when the oil gets sheared down in viscosity in 30K miles or so.

230,900 exactly when I removed the trans.The trans shifted fine. Fluid was clean, 20K if that on the fluid, I would've reused it if I had clean containers. Wear deposits in the bottom of the trans was minimal, I daily drove this truck unloaded. Notchyness comes with age but it's not popping out of gear and I don't fight getting it in. I'm not 4x4 launching this, or doing burnouts. It's my daily that I use for scrap and mobile mechanic work. Last time I was on a scale with my tools and 1/2 a tank she weighed 8200. Stock tire size (265/70/17), stock suspension height, rear is a 3.73 and untouched.

 

[bcbender]

Again you can have two problems, but, the noise could be just the clutch damper.

My SBC was also noisier after I put the trans back in than the stock LUK was (even w/o a pilot bearing ), but since the trans was rebuilt, and new FW, HYD, and clutch, I didn't give it much thought. Gear rollover and rattle was much more noticeable, but I put near 50k miles on the rebuild and sold it recently with no worries about the transmission for sure. As Tuesdak said, the trans was louder when there was a wall, or other reflection of noise back to the OP.

Good luck on your diagnosis, let us know where you settle on it.

 

[Tuesdak]

Notchyness comes with age

Because of the night and day improvement in shifting after the rebuild I highly recommend it. Why fight a worn out transmission? Other than being cold this indicates the syncro for the notchy gear is worn out and not providing enough friction. I recall the transmission being louder after the rebuild. However it shifted way better as long as you kept in mind it's a slow shifter and will drop in when it's ready. The heavier clutch slowed shifting down on the worn syncros.

This is what the replaced worn parts looked like in mine. "Flat" means the syncro is rubbing somewhere else aside of the friction basically having reached it's wear limiter and isn't providing much friction to change speed to shift. I also had the case machined for the now common rear bearing lube mod. They had to weld one bearing race to get it free, that be the nasty looking one. They also flipped the reverse over so it had a non chewed up part.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I highly recommend it. Why fight a worn out transmission?

I'll keep that in consideration, My budget didn't include a rebuild and this trans wasn't giving me issues or leaving me on the side of the road. A rebuild is a bit hard to swallow now that I have a generator on 31" casters.

 

[Tuesdak]

I get that esp. when the first clutch job missed the fact a dowel pin was missing and ruining clutches. Trans was out 3x two for clutches and the 3rd because the engine was being rebuilt and OWTH rebuild it so I can stay on the road vs. the shop.

I spent more on the clutch than a trans rebuild. But I don’t know if Standard Trans does em that inexpensive anymore.

I wonder if spinning the output shaft of the trans would make noise and help pin its source down. Engine Off of course.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I wonder if spinning the output shaft of the trans would make noise and help pin its source down. Engine Off of course.

I'll give that a shot when I pull it next weekend. The noise definitely sounds like it's coming from the clutch housing. I took it out around the block yesterday to test the gauges I just wired in and it almost seems like it evens out or gets quieter with higher rpms. Still sounds horrid with the clutch out in neutral.

Phoenix Friction says this noise is in no way normal for any of their clutch kits and that with the amount of noise I'm hearing it should be readily obvious what's wrong once It's pulled out.

 

[GCroyle]

If you have old TDR copies go find Issue 63, 2009 pages 40-44 but look at page 42 bottom right column the torsion damper curve.

That is an actual clutch disc torsion damper curve of the OE disc for an NV5600 and in fact I'm pretty sure it's the disc from my personal truck. The disc is clamped in the machine and the input shaft is rotated. The computer plots degrees of rotation vs torque required to rotate the hub INSIDE the damper. Notice the progressive curve, it doesn't ramp up linearly and it has a predamper section about 5 degrees or so drive and coast then it gets into the get er done mode and it ramps up to 500 ft-lbs at 23 degrees of rotation.

This was the adopted, approved and supplied torsion damper design. Had to meet torque capacity, durability and most importantly provide an approvable reduction in gear noise. That's the Genie they try to put IN the bottle and keep it there. A tough nut to crack.

Same illustration as in Issue 63 but now I took artistic license and made a second graph in red. Less than (estimated) 4-5 degrees rotation and you're in the 500 ft-lb range that needed over 20 degrees of travel bit without a predamper, noise reduction is not the characteristic of this type disc brute strength, durability under stress and simplicity.

Can this 8 or 16 spring disc be built or the design modified to improve it's noise dampening traits, only slightly and usually with one of the springs being exchanged for a very light spring rate and the internal window of the damper modified to permit this "modification" to the crude strong parent disc.

Gary

 

[GCroyle]

CORRECTION TO MY PREVIOUS POST.

Massive brain toot. I put the red line in the wrong quadrants. This pic shows red line in the correct quadrants. No change to performance etc just correcting a I have other projects in mind today oops.

MY ERROR

Gary

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Can this 8 or 16 spring disc be built or the design modified to improve it's noise dampening traits, only slightly and usually with one of the springs being exchanged for a very light spring rate and the internal window of the damper modified to permit this "modification" to the crude strong parent disc.

I'm skeptical of questioning the manufacturing and testing of this clutch but I'll shoot them an email Monday asking if they're willing to test it paired with their pressure plate and send me the results. I can't do much else otherwise with it once the trans is pulled besides look at it.

Am I correct in assuming that you don't think this clutch has the right springs or spring rate to dampen vibrations?

This isn't a sled pulling clutch or competition dual disk; Just a smooth engagement, higher holding capacity, longer lasting Kevlar clutch.

Do you understand why I'm skeptical? I'm not saying a manufacture cant mess up but this clutch was designed around being quiet and smooth, and it's everything but that. Something must be critically wrong why that is and I just don't see why it's design would come into question.

But hey I've eaten my words before, and I've been wrong on many occasions. You'll be the first to know if I get any data or test results back. Maybe data test sheets should be sent with clutches from manufactures like alternators and starters, it'd probably help in instances like these.

 

[GCroyle]

The pressure plate is only involved with a clean release, smooth engagement, good pedal feedback and enough clamp load to prevent slippage per the design.

The disc has roles in smooth engagement or heading towards harsh depending on the facing type, clean release, torque capacity, service life and the issue you're presenting the discs ability to mitigate gear noise if that is the choice.

Look at a solid hub disc for pulling etc. No moving parts, no damper just twist the input shaft. ZERO filtering of engine pulsations you get all the gear noise possible.

8 spring, 16 spring and their variants. Need to see the disc and review the description to see if its super crude and strong or has a tiny bit of pre damper type filtering capability in it.

OE design disc and damper. This is the one that was approved and supplied to the vehicle mfgr. It's a combination of strength, drivability, torsion damper to minimize gear noise, service life and price.

But Diesel pick up truck owners didn't leave stuff alone, power gets added, new failure modes found like a torsion damper getting beat to crap facings burned up and then the aftermarket unveils their offerings.

You're the customer I don't think asking for a torsion damper curve of the exact disc design that you bought is beyond a reasonable request for tech support.

If it was easy to install the trans again using a stock disc and make no other changes you might get an answer as to is it the disc or the trans?

 

[NIsaacs]

The video don't sound like gear rollover. Mine is only noisy when warm, silent when cold. The noise on the video sounds steady, not intermittent, as in gear rollover rumble.

I assume the oil guide/slinger is a snug fit in the seal retainer. It also looks like there is very little clearance between it and the input shaft bearing. Is it possible it is not fully bottomed out/seated in the retainer and is making contact with the input shaft bearing? Other than that possibility, I don't see anything wrong with your seal install, very professional, you are hired Lol.

This thread is driving me crazy I can't think of anything wrong. It is almost like you installed an unknown used transmission in the truck and not a known silent/good one, prior to the clutch.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

You're the customer I don't think asking for a torsion damper curve of the exact disc design that you bought is beyond a reasonable request for tech support.

Can't hurt to ask.

If it was easy to install the trans again using a stock disc and make no other changes you might get an answer as to is it the disc or the trans?

With all due respect, it was not easy. I need a definitive answer and sure solution before re-installing this trans for a second time. I'll send out both discs to be tested if need be. I'm hesitant asking a friend to use a shop lift because I don't know what's wrong, and I can't have this sitting in a bay waiting for clutches to be tested, or for a new one to be shipped back. Time is money, and I'm running out of free favors.

Stock Clutch is not going back in. I have power goals for 500/900 with custom tuning. I never would've guessed changing a clutch could be so difficult and involved a job. This technology has been around for over a hundred years and people are still getting it wrong weather in manufacturing or installing parts. Pull the trans, replace leaking seals, bolt the clutch, install the trans. Maybe it's just my trucks character showing......

Edit: On the bright side; as of yesterday I officially have no leaks anywhere on the engine or front end. Oil, power steering, coolant, brake fluid, axle, everything is dry with no spots.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I assume the oil guide/slinger is a snug fit in the seal retainer. It also looks like there is very little clearance between it and the input shaft bearing. Is it possible it is not fully bottomed out/seated in the retainer and is making contact with the input shaft bearing?

I thought about that, it was sitting nice and snug on the retainer, solid hits all around. The shim pushes up against the bearing race. During assembly I would expect the torque procedure to fully seat anything left undone given how tight the clearances are.

No leaks of transmission fluid whatsoever so the sealant is at least doing it's job.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Noticed something else about the grinding noise, it evens out and goes away with rpms.

 

[GCroyle]

Frequency or interval between power pulses decreases. They are blending into each other rather than pow pow pow now powpowpowpow

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Frequency or interval between power pulses decreases. They are blending into each other rather than pow pow pow now powpowpowpow

Is it a helpful clue? We already know something is grinding in the housing or front of the transmission.

 

[GCroyle]

Is it a helpful clue? We already know something is grinding in the housing or front of the transmission.

Would increased rpm make a grinding noise quieter or louder?

This is tough to be anything more than decent speculation via forum interaction.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Would increased rpm make a grinding noise quieter or louder?

I would honestly say it depends on what's moving, I see how that would be hard to call.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Trans pulled, clutch removed. Assembly was as it should be, Disc was not flipped, nor was the fork. Transmission did not get up to temp on the 4 test drives around my block up to 3rd gear.

Before you jump on the hot spot; keep in mind I was holding the clutch in listening for this noise repeatedly. I don't think that its the sole cause. Here is a link again to the video for the grinding noise, ill be getting in contact with Phoenix Friction Monday morning with these pictures.


Thoughts?