Toyhauler Tow Vehicle Choice

[TFlewitt]

Hi, our family is looking for a large toyhauler - 40+'. We are looking at traveling locally here in CA, but also throughout the US and Canada. We have looked at many and like the KZs (New Visions/Escalades) which are 43 1/2' long and max at 18-19k.



We were looking at pulling the RV with an '06 Dodge 1ton dually with engine (350hp/750tq) and transmission mods, 4. 10 diff, air bags, etc for towing heavy. I've read a lot of experiences of guys that tow commercially even heavier than this with mods that don't have problems or trepidations, and can maintain legal speeds even on mountain grades. Then I've heard from the weight police saying that the truck will crash and burn, wear out, break, be under-powered, etc.



I've looked at a lot of posts by people pulling very large 5th wheels and large Toyhaulers with 1ton duallys and even SRW trucks. They don't seem to have any problem. What do you guys pull your 40' Toyhaulers or large 5th wheels with? What is your experience with 1ton duallys? Thanks for your experience and comments.

 

[ScottLewis]

Because the toyhaulers are so heavy, I don't think you'd be happy with less than a 3500 dually with 4. 10 rear end. I pull a 11K with my 2500 and it handles it real well but I'd want more if it was a lot heavier.



Dan

 

[JCasper]

Get an exhaust brake.

 

[SBeretz]

I pull my 40ft Raptor with my Dodge MC with only a set of airbags (suspension wise). Trailer has a GVWR of 15K. . I pull it with 4 quads and sometimes full of water (150 gallons dry camping). . It handles the trailer fine. If I was going to something in the 18k - 20k range a dually would be rally nice, but mine handles this trailer just fine. I haven't met many hills that have made me shift down. I did add some power to the truck, but I either turn it off or on the 30HP setting while pulling the trailer. Scotty

 

[seemore]

For something that heavy, you really need a Medium Duty Truck. Just because others get away with it, doesn't mean it's safe or legal.

 

[JCostello]

We've been pulling RVs for over 15 years and it sounds like you need a Heavy Duty vehicle. One bad gust of wind, one bad driver and you'll be happy you had the power and the weight to keep it on the road and straight down the road.

 

[icman95]

Have a 33ft KZ and pulled it with one bike and 110 gallons of fresh water from CT to SD with no problem with my mods. Pulled it around New England last year on stock power and it was ok but not great-thus the mods. Grossed out around 21,200 this summer and all was well, but I would do it on a dually, not a SRW. Also a jake brake is almost mandatory. Hard to stop all that weight and every bit helps.

 

[HBarlow]

TFlewitt:



I am a commercial RV transporter and have pulled many of those 40+ footers like you plan to purchase with my '06 Dodge. The truck has 205k miles on it and is holding up extremely well. However, they are a huge load for a dually and, consider this carefully, I pull them from manufacturer to dealer empty, dry, etc. Yours will be loaded to maximum GVWR or beyond with all your belongings and toys.



The Dodge 3500 DRW you described will pull it safely and reliably if, and I underscore the if, you are an experienced and careful driver and RV puller but the weight will exceed the Dodge's design capability. The Dodge platform is strong and durable and the Cummins engine is capable of pulling it but your loaded combined weight will far exceed the manufacturer's maximum allowable gross combined weight and will overload and overwork the transmission and drive train. If the trailer brakes fail for any reason the Dodge brakes are simply not designed to stop 28,000 pounds in a reasonable distance in an emergency. If you plan to pull it an occasional weekend from SOCAL out to the Colorado River it might be a reasonable risk to take. If you plan to travel extensively as you stated and in mountainous terrain I recommend you reconsider. I have pulled an empty one enough to tell you with absolute certainty that you will not enjoy the performance on mountain grades. Yes, the Dodge Cummins will pull it over them and, if you have an exhaust brake installed, you will be able to survive the steep downgrades, but it won't be enjoyable. Basically you'll work the guts out of a little 3500 dually Dodge if you pull lots of miles.



A new Dodge Ram 4500/5500 cab and chassis would be a better and safer choice and so would an International 4300 LoPro or Freightliner Business Class truck.



I love my Dodge Ram and brag on its capabilities to anyone who will listen but I will also tell you truthfully, I would not pull a 43' Toy Hauler with mine. When I bought a new fiver earlier this year I carefully decided on a "32 footer" that is actually 34' long and weighs 14,000 lbs. loaded. With my Dodge and the trailer loaded for travel my gross combined weight is 23,000 lbs. , the maximum specified by Dodge. The Dodge pulls and handles the trailer comfortably. I would not buy a larger or heavier trailer to pull extensively in the mountains and all over the North American Continent.



Your choice, your rig, your money. I've answered your question.



Harvey

 

[Jaysyl]

TFlewitt:



I am a commercial RV transporter and have pulled many of those 40+ footers like you plan to purchase with my '06 Dodge. The truck has 205k miles on it and is holding up extremely well. However, they are a huge load for a dually and, consider this carefully, I pull them from manufacturer to dealer empty, dry, etc. Yours will be loaded to maximum GVWR or beyond with all your belongings and toys.



The Dodge 3500 DRW you described will pull it safely and reliably if, and I underscore the if, you are an experienced and careful driver and RV puller but the weight will exceed the Dodge's design capability. The Dodge platform is strong and durable and the Cummins engine is capable of pulling it but your loaded combined weight will far exceed the manufacturer's maximum allowable gross combined weight and will overload and overwork the transmission and drive train. If the trailer brakes fail for any reason the Dodge brakes are simply not designed to stop 28,000 pounds in a reasonable distance in an emergency. If you plan to pull it an occasional weekend from SOCAL out to the Colorado River it might be a reasonable risk to take. If you plan to travel extensively as you stated and in mountainous terrain I recommend you reconsider. I have pulled an empty one enough to tell you with absolute certainty that you will not enjoy the performance on mountain grades. Yes, the Dodge Cummins will pull it over them and, if you have an exhaust brake installed, you will be able to survive the steep downgrades, but it won't be enjoyable. Basically you'll work the guts out of a little 3500 dually Dodge if you pull lots of miles.



A new Dodge Ram 4500/5500 cab and chassis would be a better and safer choice and so would an International 4300 LoPro or Freightliner Business Class truck.



I love my Dodge Ram and brag on its capabilities to anyone who will listen but I will also tell you truthfully, I would not pull a 43' Toy Hauler with mine. When I bought a new fiver earlier this year I carefully decided on a "32 footer" that is actually 34' long and weighs 14,000 lbs. loaded. With my Dodge and the trailer loaded for travel my gross combined weight is 23,000 lbs. , the maximum specified by Dodge. The Dodge pulls and handles the trailer comfortably. I would not buy a larger or heavier trailer to pull extensively in the mountains and all over the North American Continent.



Your choice, your rig, your money. I've answered your question.



Harvey

GOOD POST

 

[TFlewitt]

Hi HBarlow, thanks, I do appreciate your candid comments. Is your truck motor stock? When you say we will not enjoy the performance in the mountains, could you elaborate? Is it the weight of the truck that you think will be a concern, or the rigidity of the frame, or the suspension handling the pin weight, or the power (or lack of it)? Is it just hill performance that you are referring to as "working the guts" out of the Dodge, or even on milder, flat roads?



As far as the truck goes, we were planning on a 4. 10 diff like yours. The motor will be modded to tow at 350-400hp/700-850tq, the trans will be a full upgrade by Goerend for heavy towing past 28k including billets. The brake pads will be upgraded to a much more aggressive compound, air bags, and of course an exhaust brake will be used. I maintain our equipment well and braking systems/tires, both truck and trailer, would be a constant check and maintenance item.



I used to have a class 1 license in Canada, and will be getting my class A license here in CA before getting the RV. I wouldn't characterize our anticipated travel as extensively mountainous, but we will have to get over them occasionally to get where we're going. We are not talking about constant travel, nor full-timing, but rather typical bi-weekly/monthly RVing, traveling to riding areas, and to races when the boys start. Frankly, we can't afford to have a MDT sitting around just for RV use as the pickup is a daily driver.



What do you think about my clarifications? We appreciate your experienced thoughts. Thanks.

TFlewitt:



I am a commercial RV transporter and have pulled many of those 40+ footers like you plan to purchase with my '06 Dodge. The truck has 205k miles on it and is holding up extremely well. However, they are a huge load for a dually and, consider this carefully, I pull them from manufacturer to dealer empty, dry, etc. Yours will be loaded to maximum GVWR or beyond with all your belongings and toys.



The Dodge 3500 DRW you described will pull it safely and reliably if, and I underscore the if, you are an experienced and careful driver and RV puller but the weight will exceed the Dodge's design capability. The Dodge platform is strong and durable and the Cummins engine is capable of pulling it but your loaded combined weight will far exceed the manufacturer's maximum allowable gross combined weight and will overload and overwork the transmission and drive train. If the trailer brakes fail for any reason the Dodge brakes are simply not designed to stop 28,000 pounds in a reasonable distance in an emergency. If you plan to pull it an occasional weekend from SOCAL out to the Colorado River it might be a reasonable risk to take. If you plan to travel extensively as you stated and in mountainous terrain I recommend you reconsider. I have pulled an empty one enough to tell you with absolute certainty that you will not enjoy the performance on mountain grades. Yes, the Dodge Cummins will pull it over them and, if you have an exhaust brake installed, you will be able to survive the steep downgrades, but it won't be enjoyable. Basically you'll work the guts out of a little 3500 dually Dodge if you pull lots of miles.



A new Dodge Ram 4500/5500 cab and chassis would be a better and safer choice and so would an International 4300 LoPro or Freightliner Business Class truck.



I love my Dodge Ram and brag on its capabilities to anyone who will listen but I will also tell you truthfully, I would not pull a 43' Toy Hauler with mine. When I bought a new fiver earlier this year I carefully decided on a "32 footer" that is actually 34' long and weighs 14,000 lbs. loaded. With my Dodge and the trailer loaded for travel my gross combined weight is 23,000 lbs. , the maximum specified by Dodge. The Dodge pulls and handles the trailer comfortably. I would not buy a larger or heavier trailer to pull extensively in the mountains and all over the North American Continent.



Your choice, your rig, your money. I've answered your question.



Harvey

 

[SnoKing]

"Frankly, we can't afford to have a MDT sitting around just for RV use as the pickup is a daily driver. "



Well, then plan on a smaller trailer, and keep your family and the rest of us safe! You have the truck, so get a trailer that matches it. SNOKING

 

[JCasper]

GOOD POST

Yes it was.



My father-in-law bought a 36' 4 horse gooseneck with living quarters this year. It has a GVW of 16,900lbs.



He towed it home with his SRW 3500 (120 miles) and to a local event.



He then called me up on a Wednesday and said "Where can I get a Mega Dually by Friday". We picked up the truck, installed the hitch and he said it's a night and day difference. The exhaust brake made a huge difference in being able to stop it. And the extra two tires made it much more stable.



I still think a 4500 or 5500 would be a better choice, but they are not out yet.

 

[HBarlow]

Hi HBarlow, thanks, I do appreciate your candid comments. Is your truck motor stock? When you say we will not enjoy the performance in the mountains, could you elaborate? Is it the weight of the truck that you think will be a concern, or the rigidity of the frame, or the suspension handling the pin weight, or the power (or lack of it)? Is it just hill performance that you are referring to as "working the guts" out of the Dodge, or even on milder, flat roads?



As far as the truck goes, we were planning on a 4. 10 diff like yours. The motor will be modded to tow at 350-400hp/700-850tq, the trans will be a full upgrade by Goerend for heavy towing past 28k including billets. The brake pads will be upgraded to a much more aggressive compound, air bags, and of course an exhaust brake will be used. I maintain our equipment well and braking systems/tires, both truck and trailer, would be a constant check and maintenance item.

Yes, my engine is factory stock. Many will disagree but, in my opinion, you can abuse the engine by modifying it to produce significantly greater hp and tq and probably avoid catastrophic failure if you drive it empty or pull light loads, or you can abuse it by significantly overloading it BUT, again, in my opinion, I do not believe it is reasonable to do both. A power increase like you describe and heavy loads like we're talking about will almost certainly invite catastrophic engine failure. You know the phrase: "you are your own warranty station. " Increasing the power as you suggest would drastically overwork the engine and driveline when working against the gross weight you plan. Our little Cummins B motors were initially designed to pull up to 60,000 lbs. combined weight although they would probably be more suitable in the 30 to 40k range but that would be with a different transmission and differential and the truck would operate in a slower speed range with lower hp and torque programming.



The pin weight will be within the weight capacity of the rear tires but will overload the rear springs. The rear springs were designed as a compromise between everyday unloaded driving and an occasional heavy load. The pin weight of a 43' 5er will set the truck down hard on the helper springs which is okay until you bound over uneven pavement and it will bounce hard from full spring compression to full rebound. You will feel like you are going to lose control and it will abuse the truck and contents of the trailer badly. The combo would be acceptable cruising across the flatlands of Illinois on I-55, I-57, or I-70 @ 55 mph but starting, stopping, ascending and descending grades would be disappointing to dangerous.



I think the performance would be disappointing primarily because you won't have the required gearing. The antique four speed 48RE automatic would be the primary problem, a 4. 10 differential would be the other. In my opinion you could probably obtain satisfactory performance with a six or seven speed manual transmission and 4. 56 or 4. 88 gears. Neither ring and pinion are available or possible to retrofit. You simply won't have the right gear for the engine/road speed or the torque multiplication for the load. I have a full DTT transmission with all the billet steel parts and it is plenty strong and durable for the abuse I subject it to but it is not a pleasure to drive when overloaded because it lacks the gear choices and range of gears to do the job. It is either lugging the engine or overrevving. Startups are slow and uncomfortable because I feel the abuse as the little truck struggles to get that huge load moving with the wrong gears.



If you are patient and don't mind crawling up and down the steep grades the engine and drivetrain will move the load but the BRAKES WILL NOT. Substituting different pads will only impair driveability and durability. If you use pads with greater friction they'll create greater heat which will warp and destroy the rotors. If you use an excellent brake controller (an inertia-based controller like Tekonsha Prodigy is not one) and maintain the truck and trailer brakes carefully you will be able to stop it but if you ever have a seven pin plug come loose or fail or you blow a trailer brake supply fuse without knowing it and try to stop 28,000 lbs. with truck brakes only in an emergency or even a simple unexpected traffic light change to red when you are running 45 or 50 mph you'll be in deep trouble. The Dodge brakes can handle 11,500 lbs. but not 28,000 lbs. You'll blow right through an intersection with your foot to the floor and both hands gripping the wheel in a white knuckle attempt to avoid a crash. Not a pretty thought is it?



I've been a TDR member long enough to know that 90% of the time when a member asks for opinions he really only wants to hear the opinions that support and agree with what he wants or plans to do. Most don't want to read opinions like mine written here because budgets, personal choices (and biases), committments already made, and other factors have already led him to the choices he has made. He wants affirmation of his choices not facts and opinions that challenge his plans. In other words, I'm sorry to tell you what you don't want to hear but again, knowing what I know about the current crop of Dodge dually pickups and monster fifth wheel trailers I would not do what you are planning to do. I think you'll regret it.



Best wishes,

Harvey

 

[steved]

I've been a TDR member long enough to know that 90% of the time when a member asks for opinions he really only wants to hear the opinions that support and agree with what he wants or plans to do. Most don't want to read opinions like mine written here because budgets, personal choices (and biases), committments already made, and other factors have already led him to the choices he has made. He wants affirmation of his choices not facts and opinions that challenge his plans. In other words, I'm sorry to tell you what you don't want to hear but again, knowing what I know about the current crop of Dodge dually pickups and monster fifth wheel trailers I would not do what you are planning to do. I think you'll regret it.



Best wishes,

Harvey

Good statement...



steved

 

[TAbbott]

Notwithstanding HBarlow's excellent posts (he appears to speak from experience and a sound knowlege base), if you can get by with even a slightly smaller Toyhauler, you may be able to get by with a vehicle that would make a much better daily driver than a medium duty truck.



I have a Holiday Rambler Next level 38CKS 3 axle toyhauler that's 39'10" long and has a GVW of about 17,000 lbs. I pull it w/no problem with an '06 2500 CTD QC LB SRW 4x4 with G-56, 6 speed manual transmission and 3. 73 gears. It required some mods to make it work, but it works very well. Goes fine, stops fine, handles fine. Nothing is overloaded, excepting the sticker on the door.



Anyway, I don't know why a Dodge dually wouldn't handle that trailer or something similar with aplomb, although it too may require a few mods to make it really stellar. I do some other things with my truck besides hauling the trailer and I didn't want a dually -- I just wanted dually capabilities and I have them. If I could make an SRW do the job and do it well, certainly you could do the same starting from a more capable, dually platform from the outset.



I know the Cummins is rated for loads to 50,000 lbs, and the G-56 is supposedly installed in applications up to 60,000 lbs by Mercedes. The 11. 5" rear axle is heavy enough for the loads you are contemplating in my opinion. If it runs a bit warm, you can cool it down appreciably by changing to 75-140 synthetic gear lube and a larger rear cover providing more lube capacity.



Anyway, as capable as these trucks are in stock form, there are aftermarket upgrades available for these trucks that make them much more capable than they were when it left the factory. If you'd like a run down of some of these alternatives, I can help you with that.

 

[oneshotkyle]

this issue has been talked about many toimes on TDR but there are always different views. i myself have towed my 40ft raptor with a combined weight of 24. 5k on my 05' 2500 SRW and have zero problems or concerns. i also have 35inch tall tires and 3. 73 gears with a G56 which i love.

 

[Spooled-up]

Something else to consider:

My buddy called his insurance company and asked if he would be covered if he was above the GCWR for his truck while he was pulling a toyhauler. They said absolutely not.



I know you can pull the trailer you want to pull with this truck, but if someone cuts you off and you have an accident with injuries, you're going to be paying medical bills out of pocket, and the thought of that alone would make me change my plans.

 

[Bug Out]

Get a MDt or lighter trailer

I tow a Forest River Sierra Sport, 40' 3 slide that GVW's at 16950. .



As heavy as i haul mine is about 15000-15300 or so. . That puts me around 24700 on the scales with fuel etc. ( That weight was with the Harley in back, not the Prowler)



You GVW one of those,(20,000+ truck 10,000) you will easily be at 30,000 +..... MDT is whats needed.





I'm usually a "go ahead and tow it kinda guy", but not that much.



I know I'll take a beating by saying this, Ford F-450-550 makes a great MDT and P/U.



Dodge dropped the ball big time with their 4500-5500. I was going to buy a New Dodge 4500, but the GCVW is not much more them what i have now...







PS: I know I committed a MAJOR RAM FELONY by recommending a Ford, but honestly, the Ford F-450 is a good MDT, since Dodge screwed themselves.

 

[HBarlow]

IYou GVW one of those,(20,000+ truck 10,000) you will easily be at 30,000 +..... MDT is whats needed.



I'm usually a "go ahead and tow it kinda guy", but not that much.



I know I'll take a beating by saying this, Ford F-450-550 makes a great MDT and P/U.



PS: I know I committed a MAJOR RAM FELONY by recommending a Ford, but honestly, the Ford F-450 is a good MDT, since Dodge screwed themselves.



Dodge dropped the ball big time with their 4500-5500. I was going to buy a New Dodge 4500, but the GCVW is not much more them what i have now...

Bug Out,



You and I agree that the load being discussed is too much for a Dodge Ram dually and I don't consider your comments about the Ford made here on the TDR forum a "MAJOR RAM FELONY. " You have every right to say that . . . but I disagree with you.



The Ford platform is probably fine but the engines are JUNK.



I think it is important to mention that there is currently no industry standard for calculating and establishing Gross Combined Weight Ratings. Comparing the ratings of Ford, Dodge, and GM is not comparing apples to apples but is comparing apples to oranges. Each manufacturer is free to establish his own ratings. The factors they base them on remain secret internal data, and they are not necessarily based on any objective comparisons or the same factors. They may not even be based on any truthful performance elements. Ford claims a higher GCWR than Dodge but it could very well be based on nothing more than a marketing ploy to sell them. Ford F450/550 platforms don't have frames, suspension, brakes, or driveline components any stronger than anything the new Dodge Ram cab and chassis will offer. In fact the Ford F450/550 uses the identical engine and transmission that the Ford F250 3/4 ton pickup uses. It is common knowledge that the Ford 6. 0 V8 diesel was a failure and a financial disaster for Ford and harmful to International and the new 6. 4 liter replacement, although yet unknown, is based on the same architecture as the 6. 0 and is twice as complicated. It has twin turbos, piezo-electric injectors, a maze or wiring harnesses, plumbing, and mysterious components covering the entire top of the engine, and the cab has to be removed for any engine problem which, according to the Diesel Stop, are already fairly common.



As an RV transporter I can tell you that by far the most common truck in use as the tow vehicle for RV transporters, and in even larger percentages for the old guys who have been doing it a few years, are Dodge Rams. Likewise the hotshotters you see over the interstate highways of the nation. You'll see them pulling huge tandem axle dual wheel goosneck flatbeds loaded with oilfield equipment or general cargo. Nine out of ten of them are grossing near 30k pounds and using Dodge Rams. In short, the manufacturer's GCWRs may not mean much. We know our Dodge Rams will reliably haul loads far in excess of factory allowances.



Each to his own but unless Ford Motor Company gave me an ironclad contract agreeing in writing to provide free towing, free maintenance and repairs, and a replacement work truck during periods of downtime I honestly would not accept a free Ford to pull trailers. I wouldn't want the breakdowns and loss of revenue. In other words, Ford couldn't give me one.



Harvey

 

[SnoKing]

We camped in Colorado Springs a week or so ago next to a guy with a 2001 or 2002 550 Ford. He said it was a great rig, BUT that he had the rear air ride installed. Without it, it rides like a brick truck. SNOKING