ZR... Great way to explain it... . I got that converter before it was patented... so I coudln't talk about it... . No I can and I don't have the words!
Josh
Josh
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Triple lock vs. single??
- Thread starter Blue Thunder
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infromation
What would you estimate your hp to be? How long does it take to get to 1750 when your are doing a stall test or what ever it is when the tires are not being held by the brakes. How much rpm drop do you have between each gear change in part throttle and wot? How would you describe the shifts at part throttle and wot, firm or soft. If your were to compare the efficiency of the converter what would you say it would be 89 or 91 in fluid coupling. Have you ever locked up the converter at 1550 or so or slowed down to that and gave the truck some fuel, how did the converter do. I would only guess that with 180 psi and several plates to hold that the answer is simple. Warrent is 100k miles and no time line? Have you had a chance to pull a load with the truck? Thanks for any or all answers, JimK
Is your transmission the one that has 90 idle an 180 w,o,throttle psi. If you could hold the brakes and stand on the throttle and by what rpms is the rear tires spinning. Now I realize that not all brakes hold the same, just a ideal, 1750 or 1900 or later. At wide open how much is the difference between fluid coupling and lockup, 50 or 100 or more rpms. At part throttle how much is the drop in rpm in lockup from fluid coupling.
What would you estimate your hp to be? How long does it take to get to 1750 when your are doing a stall test or what ever it is when the tires are not being held by the brakes. How much rpm drop do you have between each gear change in part throttle and wot? How would you describe the shifts at part throttle and wot, firm or soft. If your were to compare the efficiency of the converter what would you say it would be 89 or 91 in fluid coupling. Have you ever locked up the converter at 1550 or so or slowed down to that and gave the truck some fuel, how did the converter do. I would only guess that with 180 psi and several plates to hold that the answer is simple. Warrent is 100k miles and no time line? Have you had a chance to pull a load with the truck? Thanks for any or all answers, JimK
Re: Re: information
Kurk I would pay good money to get a ride in a truck like that. I am old fashion but that kind of performance is hard to resist. To be honest I have bought some injectors and a 10 fuel plate and maybe even a pump later on. I am going to do some thing to the transmission based on what I learn here. Kurk Thank you JimK
Nathan
I think you are more right here than you realize. There is a limit to the horsepower that the Dodge transmission can handle no matter who rebuilds it or what modifications are done to it. At some point engine power will exceed the capability of the transmission to successfully transfer that power out the end of the output shaft. I think the majority of the transmission vendors know this and that is why most of them don’t put up lists of high horsepower trucks using their products. They know that a list like that can be misleading. When a vendor publishes a list like that it implies that their product will handle all the horsepower mentioned and that is why the high horsepower guys use it. That implication is the exact reason I said caution should be used when considering such a list and gave the example of the failure. There are often times differences between product promotion and reality. Let me explain with this illustration.
Lets say that I am a vendor who sells remanufactured transfer cases for extreme duty use. I have a good product and quite a few people running 700+ horsepower use it. To help sell the product I publish a list of names of those high horsepower people for prospective consumers to consider. I however leave out, as Paul Harvey would say “the rest of the story”. One day at the sled pulls a 700+ horsepower truck has a failure with my product. The soil on the track was hauled in and at the start line it was sandy loam but about a third of the way in it changed to clay just moist enough to clump. At the start the wheels had plenty of spin and the sled moved easily. The weak point was traction and it took less than that 700-horsepower to spin the wheels. As the weight on the sled moved forward and the tires caught really good traction they stopped spinning so the engine was loaded and the governor gave it more fuel. Sure enough the transfer case failed as all those 700 horses kicked in. Who’s product wouldn’t have failed under those same conditions? There is always a weak point some place so in the illustration above the weak point was traction until the track conditions changed and then it became the transfer case. Was my transfer case capable of handling all of that 700 horsepower? Obviously with the failure it wasn’t.
As I said above there is a limit to how much horsepower the Dodge transmission can handle it does not matter what company remanufactures it. I believe for now those running over 700 horsepower have exceeded that limit. They will not have a failure as long as the weak point is traction / amount of load rather than transmission. But let the truck get good traction under heavy load and 700+ horsepower will fry something. As you said “how may trannys from any maker have lived through that” That is the reason I gave the warning about lists and how they can be misleading. Giving the impression that a product will handle that much power may be good for marketing but doesn’t “tell the rest of the story”.
Edward
Edward,
The problem was the sled operator not neccessarily a fault of the transmission. It was basically like trying to pull a brick wall. The sled never moved (due to the sled brakes being applied) and the wheel speed was never enough to reach lockup. Basically he was put in a situation that no one should ever have to be in. Racing and sled pulling is one thing but trying to pull a stationary sled is another. I'd be willing to bet anyones transmission would fail in that situation. Even a stick truck would be hating life under that circumstance.
Of the people on that list of 700hp trucks with DTT transmission's most are drag racers and put all of that 700+hp to the ground every time they race. The few who are pullers have their trucks setup for that and their transmission's have also lived. Sled pulling and drag racing are two different animals and require different setups for optimum performance in either application. The truck I mentioned earlier is setup for drag racing not sled pulling. He entered the beginner class so his dad could drive his truck. My point was, as I stated earlier, it is unlikely anyones transmission would have lived under the mentioned circumstances. In general all those 700+hp trucks have not had transmission failures despite being abused many times over in either sled pulling or drag racing. I mentioned the only two instances I knew of failures and it was to show that one was a hard part failure (which all of us will or have benefited from) and the other was a extremely rare situation that shouldn't have happened. I didn't have to mention either case but why hide a failure of a factory part or a situation that should have never happened.
So the bottom line is their list isn't really misleading. The failures have been listed . Besides without people pushing the limits nothing gets improved upon.
The problem was the sled operator not neccessarily a fault of the transmission. It was basically like trying to pull a brick wall. The sled never moved (due to the sled brakes being applied) and the wheel speed was never enough to reach lockup. Basically he was put in a situation that no one should ever have to be in. Racing and sled pulling is one thing but trying to pull a stationary sled is another. I'd be willing to bet anyones transmission would fail in that situation. Even a stick truck would be hating life under that circumstance.
Of the people on that list of 700hp trucks with DTT transmission's most are drag racers and put all of that 700+hp to the ground every time they race. The few who are pullers have their trucks setup for that and their transmission's have also lived. Sled pulling and drag racing are two different animals and require different setups for optimum performance in either application. The truck I mentioned earlier is setup for drag racing not sled pulling. He entered the beginner class so his dad could drive his truck. My point was, as I stated earlier, it is unlikely anyones transmission would have lived under the mentioned circumstances. In general all those 700+hp trucks have not had transmission failures despite being abused many times over in either sled pulling or drag racing. I mentioned the only two instances I knew of failures and it was to show that one was a hard part failure (which all of us will or have benefited from) and the other was a extremely rare situation that shouldn't have happened. I didn't have to mention either case but why hide a failure of a factory part or a situation that should have never happened.
So the bottom line is their list isn't really misleading. The failures have been listed . Besides without people pushing the limits nothing gets improved upon.
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unless I am mistaken DTT will not just sell a TC, they insist on addressing the whole system.
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tractorface, that's what I read on DTT web site... .
However I saw two well recommended (by TDR members) performance shops that install DTT products offer just the three models of the DTT torque converter (81%, 91%, 93%) for the same price as well as the DTT valve body.
I think DTT needs to update the info on their site...
unless I am mistaken DTT will not just sell a TC, they insist on addressing the whole system.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tractorface, that's what I read on DTT web site... .
However I saw two well recommended (by TDR members) performance shops that install DTT products offer just the three models of the DTT torque converter (81%, 91%, 93%) for the same price as well as the DTT valve body.
I think DTT needs to update the info on their site...
Nathan
It is not my intention to cast blame on anyone. I am simply pointing out that 700 horsepower was more than that product could handle therefore the failure. Does this make one company worse than another? No because I don't believe at this time any remanufacture company has a product that can handle it. If there is one I want to hear about it. I agree with you that failures create demand for innovative improvements. However boasting a large stable of horsepower is misleading when there is obvious need for further innovation at that horsepower level. Failures always occur at the weakest point. As I tried to illustrate in my post above the only logical conclusion would be if 700 horsepower can bust it then the product can't hold it.
Edward
It is not my intention to cast blame on anyone. I am simply pointing out that 700 horsepower was more than that product could handle therefore the failure. Does this make one company worse than another? No because I don't believe at this time any remanufacture company has a product that can handle it. If there is one I want to hear about it. I agree with you that failures create demand for innovative improvements. However boasting a large stable of horsepower is misleading when there is obvious need for further innovation at that horsepower level. Failures always occur at the weakest point. As I tried to illustrate in my post above the only logical conclusion would be if 700 horsepower can bust it then the product can't hold it.
Edward
Edward,
It is my experience that the reason most guys "tune down" their trucks from max HP for road use is NOT due to the transmission but are actually due to egt and smoke issues that are problems with high HP trucks. Personally I have driven mine at 700 HP all the time (I only make HP above this number with N20 so I don't run it all the time). Yes my truck does smoke and egt's would be a problem with a 10K+ trailer hooked to it, so I too would need to put smaller injectors in for more normal use, but not because I am concerned about transmission failure.
Doug
It is my experience that the reason most guys "tune down" their trucks from max HP for road use is NOT due to the transmission but are actually due to egt and smoke issues that are problems with high HP trucks. Personally I have driven mine at 700 HP all the time (I only make HP above this number with N20 so I don't run it all the time). Yes my truck does smoke and egt's would be a problem with a 10K+ trailer hooked to it, so I too would need to put smaller injectors in for more normal use, but not because I am concerned about transmission failure.
Doug
Originally posted by jcarey
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unless I am mistaken DTT will not just sell a TC, they insist on addressing the whole system.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tractorface, that's what I read on DTT web site... .
However I saw two well recommended (by TDR members) performance shops that install DTT products offer just the three models of the DTT torque converter (81%, 91%, 93%) for the same price as well as the DTT valve body.
I think DTT needs to update the info on their site...
Could it be that DTT(i. e. Bill and Stefan, et. al. ) suggest the whole system, where as some of their installers will do the TC/VB only, as a sort of bandaid. I know Bob Wagner (let me know if I'm wrong please Bob) ran this setup for a L-O-N-G time, and I almost did the same. I think the installers would rather you address the whole system, but know that not everybody will have 400+hp.
Instead of just reading, try asking questions.
Andrew
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Could it be that DTT(i. e. Bill and Stefan, et. al. ) suggest the whole system, where as some of their installers will do the TC/VB only, as a sort of bandaid.
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I do both, but I think DTT should be aware of what their installers are doing, especially since they emphasize the personal training. Also, I'm talking big name shops on the TDR.
Where are they getting the torque converters and valve bodies from, if not from DTT. Are they pulling out of DTT delievered transmissions?
Could it be that DTT(i. e. Bill and Stefan, et. al. ) suggest the whole system, where as some of their installers will do the TC/VB only, as a sort of bandaid.
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I do both, but I think DTT should be aware of what their installers are doing, especially since they emphasize the personal training. Also, I'm talking big name shops on the TDR.
Where are they getting the torque converters and valve bodies from, if not from DTT. Are they pulling out of DTT delievered transmissions?
Bob Wagner
TDR MEMBER
Originally posted by TxDieselKid
Could it be that DTT(i. e. Bill and Stefan, et. al. ) suggest the whole system, where as some of their installers will do the TC/VB only, as a sort of bandaid. I know Bob Wagner (let me know if I'm wrong please Bob) ran this setup for a L-O-N-G time, and I almost did the same. I think the installers would rather you address the whole system, but know that not everybody will have 400+hp.
Instead of just reading, try asking questions.
Andrew
Andrew, I am running the same transmission that Bill built back in 2001 when the only options were TC VB and clutch pack upgrade, that was the whole enchilda.
This transmission has been flawless since and has never been touched except for fluid and filter change.
This past week I've had to people drive my truck and both have commented on how much better they like my transmission compared to their upgraded transmission.
no names mentioned
Today there is soooo much more to consider when doing a transmission upgrade than in 2001
infromation
Chose your installer wisely. I don't have DDT transmission, but I have been to a couple of his seminars and seen the products and listened to the clearances and others things. A friend of mine has one in his truck and it has 3. 54 gears, comp box and bigger injectors, a different turbo, and a lot bigger tires. A sure way to destroy a transmission. He drives the thing hard. He is very happy with it. James did the transmission job. Otto is very happy with it.
I have different needs and ONE it the limit of 1750 in lockup. I have been told ,today, that the transmission will make pressure at 200 degrees at 1200 rpm. The problem is when you get to high temp the oil pump has a harder time doing so. If you don't have pressure at 1500 then there is a lot of leakage or a worn pump or both. Now again this my not be right, so if it I need correcting, please do so. I am only interested in learning, thanks Jimk
A few years ago I was told to buy a new factory transmission and just buy a converter and valve body. But things change and improvements are made. HP is sure up. Now I believe there are all kind of improvements made, different apply lever for second gear and bigger spring in overdrive. A better servo, improvements in clutch area and a lot more, close attention is given to ever detail ( accurate measurements of end play in transmission) The goal is to have as little as possible leakage and the factory clearances are wide, Bill insists on close tolerances( his) to get the long life that is know for by DDT.
Chose your installer wisely. I don't have DDT transmission, but I have been to a couple of his seminars and seen the products and listened to the clearances and others things. A friend of mine has one in his truck and it has 3. 54 gears, comp box and bigger injectors, a different turbo, and a lot bigger tires. A sure way to destroy a transmission. He drives the thing hard. He is very happy with it. James did the transmission job. Otto is very happy with it.
I have different needs and ONE it the limit of 1750 in lockup. I have been told ,today, that the transmission will make pressure at 200 degrees at 1200 rpm. The problem is when you get to high temp the oil pump has a harder time doing so. If you don't have pressure at 1500 then there is a lot of leakage or a worn pump or both. Now again this my not be right, so if it I need correcting, please do so. I am only interested in learning, thanks Jimk
Edward,
The one issue was dealt with and we now have billet intermediate shafts. The other failure should not have occured but it did. Perhaps the transmission would have lived if it was setup for sled pulling. To say a transmission isn't able to hold 700hp is false. It was setup for racing and has held the full hp many times over in that application. Like I said before there is considerable difference in setup between pulling the sled and racing. He knew this and took the risk of trying to pull the sled. Had the sled operator not applied the brakes the transmission most likely would have lived but we will never know. As you can see from others post on here their trannys have and are living with the 700+hp they have when used in the application they are setup for. The clutches in the transmission are designed to be the weak point incase such rare occasions such as this happen. They could probably be designed to live through what Opie's truck went through but why risk blowing a case apart or tearing up a rear end or even a T-case when clutchs are relatively cheap. That doesn't mean they are specifically designed to fail but they are about the only "wear" item in a transmission so they are generally the weak point. If you knew Opie you would know he tends to push his equipment beyond what most people would to try and help design a better mouse trap. If to you that means under normal circumstances all those trannys listed at or over 700hp cannot hold then I guess I'm wasting my time talking about this with you.
Nathan
The one issue was dealt with and we now have billet intermediate shafts. The other failure should not have occured but it did. Perhaps the transmission would have lived if it was setup for sled pulling. To say a transmission isn't able to hold 700hp is false. It was setup for racing and has held the full hp many times over in that application. Like I said before there is considerable difference in setup between pulling the sled and racing. He knew this and took the risk of trying to pull the sled. Had the sled operator not applied the brakes the transmission most likely would have lived but we will never know. As you can see from others post on here their trannys have and are living with the 700+hp they have when used in the application they are setup for. The clutches in the transmission are designed to be the weak point incase such rare occasions such as this happen. They could probably be designed to live through what Opie's truck went through but why risk blowing a case apart or tearing up a rear end or even a T-case when clutchs are relatively cheap. That doesn't mean they are specifically designed to fail but they are about the only "wear" item in a transmission so they are generally the weak point. If you knew Opie you would know he tends to push his equipment beyond what most people would to try and help design a better mouse trap. If to you that means under normal circumstances all those trannys listed at or over 700hp cannot hold then I guess I'm wasting my time talking about this with you.
Nathan
infromation
Since the topic is, Triple lock vs. single?? If you were able to apply 120 lbs of oil pressure to the make each converter lockup , which will hold more torque? single or triple? I know that ever one uses there own pressures , but apples to apples.
Second not every one that makes a triple lock uses a milled stock stator. Do you know for sure that there is not any better stator out there in the triple disc converers?
That the single disc is good enough and does not slip when I an racing my truck is great. Do you race under part throttle?
I have heard that the weakest point is not the converter disc anyway, but the clutches in the transmission.
So if the reasons is It is just not necessary, OK. Would you be willing to warranty your single disc at 1550 rpm in lockup and how long. jimk
Since the topic is, Triple lock vs. single?? If you were able to apply 120 lbs of oil pressure to the make each converter lockup , which will hold more torque? single or triple? I know that ever one uses there own pressures , but apples to apples.
Second not every one that makes a triple lock uses a milled stock stator. Do you know for sure that there is not any better stator out there in the triple disc converers?
That the single disc is good enough and does not slip when I an racing my truck is great. Do you race under part throttle?
I have heard that the weakest point is not the converter disc anyway, but the clutches in the transmission.
So if the reasons is It is just not necessary, OK. Would you be willing to warranty your single disc at 1550 rpm in lockup and how long. jimk
These auto trans. threads always get out-of-wack, but they are by far the most fun for me to read and follow. BlueThunder asked, "Triple verses single disk", "What are the characteristics of each ? ", and " How do they drive ? ". BlueThunder, you really need to drive some trucks with both types of trans. and at simular power levels. DTT uses a more efficient fluid coupling in he torque converter to get you moving thru the gears and then lock-up. ATS has a less efficient fluid coupling but then locks up the torque converter in 2nd and up to get you moving. From this point on alot of personal opinions/prejudices come into play. It comes down to what you like the feel of better and what you have the confidence in. I personally like the feel of the tight fluid coupling and the confidence in what DTT did to address the other weaknesses in the 47RE. I'm not an expert in anything, but I've got an AA degree in both automotive and heavy diesel mechanics, I've worked as a heavy equip. mechanic in the shop and in the field for 14 yrs. , then as a technical communicator for 2 yrs. , and the last 5 yrs. as a product support rep. , which was all for the local Caterpillar dealer. BlueThunder, like I said earlier, you really need to drive some trucks and choose the trans/converter system that meets your needs and driving style. If you get near Dixon you can drive mine, just PM me if you would like to hook up.
I did a quick (traffic permitting) stall test on my converter last night. 1500rpm's approx. I'll try and do another one tonite. I'd say that's pretty tight. Torque curve on my truck is climbing VERY fast at that point. And from there the stator Dave designed is getting tighter yet.
Josh
Josh
Re: infromation
In my opinion the triple will hold more. A clutch pack is proven to hold that is why they are used inside the transmission. If you calculate what one friction will hold (area by applied pressure) then all you need to do is multiply that by the number of frictions. It is a simple design with a proven history. The only thing that is new is taking this proven idea and applying it to a torque converter. In fact Mercedes Benz is now using clutch pack in the torque converter of their 7-G Tronic transmission. They were able to make a smaller torque converter that would still hold the power.
Edward
In my opinion the triple will hold more. A clutch pack is proven to hold that is why they are used inside the transmission. If you calculate what one friction will hold (area by applied pressure) then all you need to do is multiply that by the number of frictions. It is a simple design with a proven history. The only thing that is new is taking this proven idea and applying it to a torque converter. In fact Mercedes Benz is now using clutch pack in the torque converter of their 7-G Tronic transmission. They were able to make a smaller torque converter that would still hold the power.
Edward
Nathan
I would love to have a conversation with you about the transmission failure you mentioned. However that would be in violation of this sights rules. Since I do not own that brand of transmission I am not allowed to comment on it or even mention the name of the company who made it. Secondly such conversations tend to get inflamed and blown out of proportion. This is unfortunate because a reasonable discussion debating this issue would benefit everyone. Finally I believe I expressed my view clearly on two points. One, the separation between reality and product promotion and two, the undisputable fact that failures always happen at the weakest point.
I have enjoyed reading your ideas on this. Your point of view was expressed concisely. Even though we disagree on a couple of issues it is clear you love your transmission every bit as much as I love mine. I hope you have many miles of enjoyment out of it.
Edward
I would love to have a conversation with you about the transmission failure you mentioned. However that would be in violation of this sights rules. Since I do not own that brand of transmission I am not allowed to comment on it or even mention the name of the company who made it. Secondly such conversations tend to get inflamed and blown out of proportion. This is unfortunate because a reasonable discussion debating this issue would benefit everyone. Finally I believe I expressed my view clearly on two points. One, the separation between reality and product promotion and two, the undisputable fact that failures always happen at the weakest point.
I have enjoyed reading your ideas on this. Your point of view was expressed concisely. Even though we disagree on a couple of issues it is clear you love your transmission every bit as much as I love mine. I hope you have many miles of enjoyment out of it.
Edward
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
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