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What Amsoil gear oil should be used?
- Thread starter Lube Man
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Andy Perreault
TDR MEMBER
Gentlemen, let's keep this on a professional and friendly level. We have two competing oil companies represented on this board, and their products are sold in different ways. Any kind of product bashing could affect the livelihoods of the people selling the products, since this thread is being read by thousands of people.
I am well acquainted with both Wayne (Amsoilman) and Kevin (Oil Man), and both are great guys who represent companies that make outstanding products. I know there are other Amsoil dealers active on this board, too. All we need now is a Red Line rep to get on and defend his products, too!
Let's try to stick to the facts and keep it friendly and on-topic. The original question was:
I am well acquainted with both Wayne (Amsoilman) and Kevin (Oil Man), and both are great guys who represent companies that make outstanding products. I know there are other Amsoil dealers active on this board, too. All we need now is a Red Line rep to get on and defend his products, too!
Let's try to stick to the facts and keep it friendly and on-topic. The original question was:
I got a foot in all the camps - been using Redline since 1977. I'm switching to Lubrication Engineers for the new Dodge in everything but the 6 speed which is getting Amsoil and I use Mobil 1 synthetic grease. I guess that makes me kind of skitzo when it comes to oil 
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They are ALL darn good products, some just do better than others in certain applications.
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2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover
#ad#ad#adThey are ALL darn good products, some just do better than others in certain applications.
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2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover
Dane,
I would like to hear your reasons for picking those lubricants, just curious.
And don't tell me you're collecting decals!
Gene
I would like to hear your reasons for picking those lubricants, just curious.
And don't tell me you're collecting decals!
Gene
MGM - The Redline works great in engines, but did not do well in my Toyota Diff - spider/side gear wear after only 100k. The LE oil has come highly recommended by Roy at Mag-Hytek for diffs and the engine oil by others. The literature from LE was straight forward with little "hype" I liked the bearing and cam pictures as positive proof the oil works. The only problem is LE is not sure about using their oil in the 6 speed via talking to the rep. The Amsoil was recommended in the transmission by a TDR member. The Mobile 1 grease was the only stuff I could find locally that met all the latest NGLI specs. hth...
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2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover
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2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover
Thank You. Let us know how things work out.
Maybe take some samples in the future, and we could compare them with other members.
Gene
Maybe take some samples in the future, and we could compare them with other members.
Gene
Its been a while since I've had time to post on this site. Family health problems and moving seem to have taken my time. I can see it is time to get back on and fight the ever ongoing battle to set out the facts. Oil Man, and I have had discussions before. I can not believe the old 33 times the wear protection of Amsoil is coming up again. I can understand why you got the emial direct and it was not posted. The test that Kevin refers to is a grease gauling test and in no way represents the actual conditions that the gear oil will function in. It is designed for low speed EP testing and in no way represents any usable information. LE (Lubrication Engineers) oils are excellent petroleum based oils and if you want to use the petroleum then they are a good choice. Amsoil makes premium synthetic based oils that are proven in both the field and in the Lab.
The crack about MLM is certainly the usual charges about prices. For clarification on how prices are established lets look at the following:
Texaco manufactures oil, they sell to a Distributor, the Distributor sells to a Jobber the Jobber sell to a Retailer, the Retailer sells to a Customer. If each level marks up the oil 15% thats around a 50% mark up (compounded). Sure seems like multiple levels of price increases to me.
Truth is, every product sold is distributed via some levels of distribution. So lets just look at the facts and not be concerned with how the product is distributed.
Dan Watson
The crack about MLM is certainly the usual charges about prices. For clarification on how prices are established lets look at the following:
Texaco manufactures oil, they sell to a Distributor, the Distributor sells to a Jobber the Jobber sell to a Retailer, the Retailer sells to a Customer. If each level marks up the oil 15% thats around a 50% mark up (compounded). Sure seems like multiple levels of price increases to me.
Truth is, every product sold is distributed via some levels of distribution. So lets just look at the facts and not be concerned with how the product is distributed.
Dan Watson
Dan,
Sorry to hear that you have had health problems in the family, and the added move I’m sure made it even harder.
I’m sure you know that the 4-ball test had many parameters, the 4-ball EP or the 4-ball WEAR. The 4-ball wear test should be used for wear characteristics of an oil and the 4-ball EP should be used to determine the Extreme Pressure ability of an oil. Now as I understand it Amsoil uses the 4-ball wear test on their gear oils and not the EP test That is fine but the temperature and rpm is not the standard test parameters and is even less accurate than the standard test parameters. The test repeatability of the standard test (same lab, same machine, same tester) is 0. 12. The reproducibility between two different labs is 0. 28 millimeters. Using the Amsoil number of 0. 40 on their gear oil, the repeatability (same lab, same machine, same tester) would be about 30% accurate.
Dan, you said;
“The test that Kevin refers to is a grease gauling test and in no way represents the actual conditions that the gear oil will function in. ”
This is just not true at all. The SRV test that LE has performed for them is the most accurate test for gear oils. The SRV just like the 4-ball test can be run in the EP test or the WEAR test. They are two different tests and just like the 4-ball tests they have different reasons for the tests. If you want to find out the maximum psi that an oil will take before seizure then you would do the SRV EP test. If you wanted to find out the wear qualities of an oil then you would run the SRV WEAR test.
LE has had many tests performed on the Amsoil 75w90 as well as many other companies gear oils. The tests include the SRV wear test ASTM D 5707, the SRV EP test ASTM D 5706, and the 4-ball wear test ASTM D 4172 B. So you can see Dan I’m not just talking about the SRV EP test that you say only tests grease gaulding (by the way it tests many different types of oils besides just grease) I’m talking about many different types of tests.
The Amsoil 4-ball test showed 0. 38 wear scar, mm
The LE ---- 4-ball test showed 0. 32 wear scar, mm
The difference of these two tests is not very much different and since the repeatability is 0. 12 one would have to say there is no difference if only looking at this one test.
The Amsoil SRV wear test showed
Length of scar, mm 0. 59
Width of scar, mm 0. 65
The LE ---- SRV wear test showed
Length of scar, mm 0. 20
Width of scar, mm 0. 06
The coefficient of friction test showed;
Amsoil at low loads 0. 135
LE at low loads ----0. 144
Amsoil at high loads 0. 320
LE at high loads ---- 0. 147
The LE gear oil had virtually no difference in load coefficient of friction and the Amsoil showed a large increase in the amount of friction at the higher loads, which would show more wear.
SRV EP test showed (Maximum load without Seizure in Newtons)
Amsoil 300 Newtons
LE ----1,100 Newtons
We have had many tests done on a lot of oils engine oils and gear oils with the same results. The Falex test is the best one for engine oils, and the SRV wear test is the best one for gear oils. We can argue till hell freezes over but EVERY test that I have ever seen shows the SRV and Falex tests as the more accurate ones.
I have no doubt that Amsoil makes a good product, but in all the lab testing and field testing I’ve seen and done shows that the LE products will have less wear than the Amsoil products. LE has been making very high quality oils since 1951 almost 50 years, and that’s a lot of testing.
Sincerely, Kevin
[This message has been edited by Oil Man (edited 06-07-2000). ]
[This message has been edited by Oil Man (edited 06-07-2000). ]
Sorry to hear that you have had health problems in the family, and the added move I’m sure made it even harder.
I’m sure you know that the 4-ball test had many parameters, the 4-ball EP or the 4-ball WEAR. The 4-ball wear test should be used for wear characteristics of an oil and the 4-ball EP should be used to determine the Extreme Pressure ability of an oil. Now as I understand it Amsoil uses the 4-ball wear test on their gear oils and not the EP test That is fine but the temperature and rpm is not the standard test parameters and is even less accurate than the standard test parameters. The test repeatability of the standard test (same lab, same machine, same tester) is 0. 12. The reproducibility between two different labs is 0. 28 millimeters. Using the Amsoil number of 0. 40 on their gear oil, the repeatability (same lab, same machine, same tester) would be about 30% accurate.
Dan, you said;
“The test that Kevin refers to is a grease gauling test and in no way represents the actual conditions that the gear oil will function in. ”
This is just not true at all. The SRV test that LE has performed for them is the most accurate test for gear oils. The SRV just like the 4-ball test can be run in the EP test or the WEAR test. They are two different tests and just like the 4-ball tests they have different reasons for the tests. If you want to find out the maximum psi that an oil will take before seizure then you would do the SRV EP test. If you wanted to find out the wear qualities of an oil then you would run the SRV WEAR test.
LE has had many tests performed on the Amsoil 75w90 as well as many other companies gear oils. The tests include the SRV wear test ASTM D 5707, the SRV EP test ASTM D 5706, and the 4-ball wear test ASTM D 4172 B. So you can see Dan I’m not just talking about the SRV EP test that you say only tests grease gaulding (by the way it tests many different types of oils besides just grease) I’m talking about many different types of tests.
The Amsoil 4-ball test showed 0. 38 wear scar, mm
The LE ---- 4-ball test showed 0. 32 wear scar, mm
The difference of these two tests is not very much different and since the repeatability is 0. 12 one would have to say there is no difference if only looking at this one test.
The Amsoil SRV wear test showed
Length of scar, mm 0. 59
Width of scar, mm 0. 65
The LE ---- SRV wear test showed
Length of scar, mm 0. 20
Width of scar, mm 0. 06
The coefficient of friction test showed;
Amsoil at low loads 0. 135
LE at low loads ----0. 144
Amsoil at high loads 0. 320
LE at high loads ---- 0. 147
The LE gear oil had virtually no difference in load coefficient of friction and the Amsoil showed a large increase in the amount of friction at the higher loads, which would show more wear.
SRV EP test showed (Maximum load without Seizure in Newtons)
Amsoil 300 Newtons
LE ----1,100 Newtons
We have had many tests done on a lot of oils engine oils and gear oils with the same results. The Falex test is the best one for engine oils, and the SRV wear test is the best one for gear oils. We can argue till hell freezes over but EVERY test that I have ever seen shows the SRV and Falex tests as the more accurate ones.
I have no doubt that Amsoil makes a good product, but in all the lab testing and field testing I’ve seen and done shows that the LE products will have less wear than the Amsoil products. LE has been making very high quality oils since 1951 almost 50 years, and that’s a lot of testing.
Sincerely, Kevin
[This message has been edited by Oil Man (edited 06-07-2000). ]
[This message has been edited by Oil Man (edited 06-07-2000). ]
I gotta get in on this one. Here's my 0. 015$ worth. 100k mi warranty (extended bought), check with dealer and they sell brand x & y plus the MoPar, bought brand * and have receipt from dealer (for warranty). Checked owners manual before buying and went with recommended weight(s). The trans takes a certian spec if its a 5sp and a different spec if its a 6sp (difference is the bushings - bronze in the 6 spd wont handle the 5sp lube - it eats bronze). So if I have a warranty problem I have: 1) dealer receipt, 2) dealer supplied lube(s), 3) a better case for warranty.
Now, I am not saying that I am not using any of the above but, I believe the owners manual and the dealer on the supplied product. Yes, I paid more for some of the products but again my warranty is not cheap! I will say that the rear has the Mag-Hytec and Amsoil, the 5sp has the filter and Amsoil. The oils are syntenthic(sp) because that is as close as I could get to what I wanted and what is/was avail. I will not "bash" either or any product listed above nor will I promte them, I made my choice based on a lot of reading here and talking with others (Oil Reps included).
My advice to a fellow TDR mbr is: read the owners manual and I'll answer your questions as best as possible, plus try to point you in the direction for more answers. No one answer fits all of us - look at the various stages we have of "STOCK" trucks, some like stickers - some dont, some like ... . Oh the heck with it! if you dont get idea its too late... .....
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SORRI for the SoapBox but ... ... ... a fellow member was looking for a "simple" answer and I dont think he got it yet. I sure dont have the knowledge to answer it!
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SOTSU!!
\\BF//
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"Drifty" y2k SLT L. E. 2500QC/SWB/5sp/3. 54LSD/bed spray/camper/tow/fogs as DRL's/3rd Brake flasher/hr mtr/altr isolator/Mag-Hytec/Ball valve oil drain/CB/25. 5k hitch/NO muffler&resonator(STOLEN?)-3" replacement w/chrome tip/Nerf bars/E-Brake/etc. 25+k in 8. 5 mos (NW Punk is gonna beat me??)
Not Stroking, BUT, RAMming it Home! SOTSU! aka \\BF//
[This message has been edited by Ben Stair (edited 06-09-2000). ]
Now, I am not saying that I am not using any of the above but, I believe the owners manual and the dealer on the supplied product. Yes, I paid more for some of the products but again my warranty is not cheap! I will say that the rear has the Mag-Hytec and Amsoil, the 5sp has the filter and Amsoil. The oils are syntenthic(sp) because that is as close as I could get to what I wanted and what is/was avail. I will not "bash" either or any product listed above nor will I promte them, I made my choice based on a lot of reading here and talking with others (Oil Reps included).
My advice to a fellow TDR mbr is: read the owners manual and I'll answer your questions as best as possible, plus try to point you in the direction for more answers. No one answer fits all of us - look at the various stages we have of "STOCK" trucks, some like stickers - some dont, some like ... . Oh the heck with it! if you dont get idea its too late... .....
#ad#adSORRI for the SoapBox but ... ... ... a fellow member was looking for a "simple" answer and I dont think he got it yet. I sure dont have the knowledge to answer it!
#ad#adSOTSU!!
\\BF//
------------------
"Drifty" y2k SLT L. E. 2500QC/SWB/5sp/3. 54LSD/bed spray/camper/tow/fogs as DRL's/3rd Brake flasher/hr mtr/altr isolator/Mag-Hytec/Ball valve oil drain/CB/25. 5k hitch/NO muffler&resonator(STOLEN?)-3" replacement w/chrome tip/Nerf bars/E-Brake/etc. 25+k in 8. 5 mos (NW Punk is gonna beat me??)
Not Stroking, BUT, RAMming it Home! SOTSU! aka \\BF//
[This message has been edited by Ben Stair (edited 06-09-2000). ]
amsoilman
Staff Alumni
Red360,
I just installed the Amsoil 5W-30 in two 2001 Dodge rams. In less than two weeks, both owners of the trucks called to inform ne that the transmissions seemed to shift much easier. Both owners of the trucks are using the Amsoil brand lubes in the drive train, including the Xfer cases.
I can give you their names if you E-mail me.
Best regards,
Wayne
amsoilman
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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
I just installed the Amsoil 5W-30 in two 2001 Dodge rams. In less than two weeks, both owners of the trucks called to inform ne that the transmissions seemed to shift much easier. Both owners of the trucks are using the Amsoil brand lubes in the drive train, including the Xfer cases.
I can give you their names if you E-mail me.
Best regards,
Wayne
amsoilman
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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
So, does Amsoil recommend the 5-30 for the 6-speed 5400 ? thanks, Bob
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2001 eth dee slt+ blk agate leather Warn transformer mount Hella 4000s, Hella 530 backups, Optima redtops Toro liner, jacobs ebrake, wired front and rear for Warn 9000 winch, backup lights inset into rear bumper,bumper powder coated silver vein, bedliner on 6" of rocker
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2001 eth dee slt+ blk agate leather Warn transformer mount Hella 4000s, Hella 530 backups, Optima redtops Toro liner, jacobs ebrake, wired front and rear for Warn 9000 winch, backup lights inset into rear bumper,bumper powder coated silver vein, bedliner on 6" of rocker
Wow! let's insert FORD for Amsoil and CHEVY for Lubrication Engineers and all this would seem normal...
Remember back about 2 issues of the TDR about the 80/20 rule? It is obvious that both companies have very high quality standards for their product. I use one company's product, but I'm not going to mention which, because IMHO, there is no PRACTICAL difference between the two. I will say this: synthetic is better than organic. All of you lying awake at night fretting about which oil is best ought to take your energy to the garage and check your truck over for worn components from throttle linkage to rear brake pads. You will save more money with this effort than the miniscule differences between two very good oil manufacturers.
Obviously my VERY opinionated $0. 02 worth.
------------------
Dean Jahnz
Black '94 dually (first on the block!), TST 230hp, Transgo shift kit, combo guage, 28' gooseneck camper/hauler, '83 Toyota extreme terrain 4x4.
My motto: The Most is Barely Enough!
Remember back about 2 issues of the TDR about the 80/20 rule? It is obvious that both companies have very high quality standards for their product. I use one company's product, but I'm not going to mention which, because IMHO, there is no PRACTICAL difference between the two. I will say this: synthetic is better than organic. All of you lying awake at night fretting about which oil is best ought to take your energy to the garage and check your truck over for worn components from throttle linkage to rear brake pads. You will save more money with this effort than the miniscule differences between two very good oil manufacturers.
Obviously my VERY opinionated $0. 02 worth.
------------------
Dean Jahnz
Black '94 dually (first on the block!), TST 230hp, Transgo shift kit, combo guage, 28' gooseneck camper/hauler, '83 Toyota extreme terrain 4x4.
My motto: The Most is Barely Enough!
amsoilman
Staff Alumni
Beartrack,
To be specific, yes Amsoil does recommend the 5W-30 for the NV5600 transmission.
Wayne
amsoilman
------------------
94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
To be specific, yes Amsoil does recommend the 5W-30 for the NV5600 transmission.
Wayne
amsoilman
------------------
94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
Dually Dean,
You have one minor mistake!
Amsoil is the Cummins of oils, and let the rest fight it out who wants to be the powerstroke! Chevys are not even in the running! Ha!
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GENE
1997 BOMBed 4x4
NRA Member
GLTDR Member
LIC-ROC Member
You have one minor mistake!
Amsoil is the Cummins of oils, and let the rest fight it out who wants to be the powerstroke! Chevys are not even in the running! Ha!
------------------
GENE
1997 BOMBed 4x4
NRA Member
GLTDR Member
LIC-ROC Member
MGM,
Since you have never used the LE oil I could see why you would say that Amsoil is the Cummins of oils. Amsoil is a very good oil but tests have shown that the LE oil is the better oil. If you would like to have a rep call on you I could give you the name of the rep in your area.
Sincerely, Kevin
Since you have never used the LE oil I could see why you would say that Amsoil is the Cummins of oils. Amsoil is a very good oil but tests have shown that the LE oil is the better oil. If you would like to have a rep call on you I could give you the name of the rep in your area.
Sincerely, Kevin
Lighten up, Kevin.
Gene
Gene
Check the heading on the e-mail reply, and I think you'll find that it came from Mag-Hytec. I just bought a diff cover from them, and the owner tried to push LE oil on me. Not once, but twice. I've never heard of LE Oil either, and will stay with Amsoil. The E-mail you got was a sales pitch from Mag Hytec, I'm sure.
Merry Christmas! Back to the top for old times sake!
Gene
Gene
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