What if they found Noah's Ark, would it change your faith?

[kaffine krazed]

To quote the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy God exists in faith and only in faith. You can not have faith if something is proven. So if you ever prove god exists it proves that he doesn't exists.



It would take more than them finding the ark to change my faith. I belive in the bible because I have seen one. However I don't belive the bible.



For those of you that say evolution isn't happening now how do you explain the new drug resistant viruses and pesiticide resistant bugs. You have all sorts of diffrent dogs we got them by selectivly breeding dogs that have certain traits and after several generations you get a slightly diffrent breed that has the traits you want in a dog.





How would your beliefs be affected if extra terestrials where proven?



I have never seen anything that made me belive there is a god but I have seen alot of stuff that makes me belive there isn't one.

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by kaffine krazed

So if you ever prove god exists it proves that he doesn't exists.



I belive in the bible because I have seen one. However I don't belive the bible.



For those of you that say evolution isn't happening now how do you explain the new drug resistant viruses and pesiticide resistant bugs. You have all sorts of diffrent dogs we got them by selectivly breeding dogs that have certain traits and after several generations you get a slightly diffrent breed that has the traits you want in a dog.





How would your beliefs be affected if extra terestrials where proven?



I have never seen anything that made me belive there is a god but I have seen alot of stuff that makes me belive there isn't one.

Just to answer some of your questions:

If you prove something exists, how does that prove that something doesn't exist?? Do you believe I exist? How do you know whether or not I exist if you have never seen me? I hope you believe I exist because of writing this. God's existence is proven by creation. Plants, man, animals and everything else is far too complicated to come into existences by mere chance. If you had all the parts in your truck separated individually, how many years would it take for it to assemble itself by mere chance and be able to run like it is now? Would it not need a highly competent mechanic to put it all together? Living things are far far more complex than a truck.



If you took drugs, say crystal meth, it would take more of it for you to get high the longer you took it. Same applies to alcohol.

Most people get dizzy the first time they smoke a cigarette. Some end up chain smokers and don't get dizzy anymore. Did they evolve or did they build up a tolerance for nicotine? You can apply that to viruses and bugs. If you spray a roach and it makes it back to the nest before dying, the rest of the roaches get a small dosage of the poison. Future generations of roaches will need a little more of it to kill them. Eventually they develop a tolerance after being exposed to it and a new pesticide will have to be used. But I have found that no roach ever develops an immunity to a fly swatter or roll of newspaper. Breeding dogs are no different. They became different kinds of dogs, but they are still dogs. No kinds of animals ever became another kind. No dogs to cats or monkeys to horses etc. Even among humans, if two blacks had a baby and the baby later married a white person, then the half black/half white offspring had a baby with another white person, then the 3/4 white-1/4 black had a child with another white person, etc, after a few generations that family would be completely white, yet the great, great, great, great grandparents were completely black! So breeding animals to extract a certain characteristic does not prove evolution.



E. T. s? If would not change. The Bible does not mention them.



People blame God for almost everything that is wrong today. The Bible says creation (especially if you examine it in detail) proves God's existence. In the Garden of Eden, Satan issued a challenge to God, whether or not his rule was best, or mankind could judge for themselves. To settle this issue, Satan would be given sufficient time to prove his claim. Man, according to the Bible chronology has been on earth a little over 6000 years. It may seem like a long time to us, but the Bible says a 1000 years (of our time) is like one day to God, because he has been in existence forever. Liken that to a 60 year old grandpa telling his 4 year old grandson and he will get him a bike on his next birthday. One year will be 25% of his lifetime. One reason little kids are so impatient.



Please understand I am not trying to argue with you and you are welcome to your own beliefs, just trying to explain why I don't share yours.

 

[Steve M]

If we didn't evolve, why don't we all look like Adam and Eve? Why do we look so much like apes? And why are we getting taller?

No one is suggesting that a chimp gave birth to a human one day or that a watch scattered all over the earth just happened to come together. Get real.

I believe God created our earth and heavens through millions of years of evolution. He has existed forever. We're the ones who are in a hurry. The Bible was written by man with political influences throughout. History as it is written in the earth itself is written by God. Every new discovery made my scientists proves to me that God created all that exists through evolution.

Not trying to argue with anyone. Just to express what I believe.

A side show magician or reality. It's your choice.

 

[MCummings]

Originally posted by Steve M

If we didn't evolve, why don't we all look like Adam and Eve?



The Bible was written by man with political influences...

I took a little hiatus from this thread, I'm back for now.

--------



Why don't we look like Adam and Eve? Who knows what Adam and Eve looked like. Far as I know, they could have looked like us.



Now, I'll be somewhat politically correct, and say If the flood did happen, then we all had to come through Noah's bloodline. The same bloodline the Jews, and Gentiles came from, the Same bloodline David came from, which in turn, as prophesised, is the same Bloodline Jesus is from.

The Bible written by a man...

The Bible was written after the flood. Before that, the stories of the Lord were handed down generation to generation by memory. I believe man was much smarter back then, than we are now. As an opinion, in just rescent years, I feel like we are just catching up to the "smartness" of Adam and Eve.



If I recall correctly, the Bible was written over a period of 400+ years, and by I think , 66 different people. The only Book in the Bible that scholars still aren't positive who the writer is, is the book of Hebrew.



Merrick Cummings Jr

 

[Hohn]

Merrick, the number 66 is the number of books in the Bible. The number of authors is considerably less, especially when you account for Paul having written so much of the New Testament.



That's what I think, anyway.



Justin

 

[Koa Man]

The Bible was written over a period of approx. 1600 years. Moses wrote the first 5 books, Apostle John wrote Revelation just before he died, completing it in 96CE. Hebrews was one of the 11 letters written by the Apostle Paul. He wrote his letter to the Hebrews while he was imprisoned in Rome.



Why do we look so much like apes??? Our resemblance to apes is as much as a dog looks like a cat. Both have four legs, a tail and hair all over their bodies. Growing taller is primarily due to better nutrition or the kinds of food people are eating.



Evolution is the belief that things are how they are by chance and were not created. That is why I used the illustration of a truck taken apart. The odds of anything coming together in an organized state is ZERO. Even a simple lean to hut made with only 2X4s, plywood and nails..... lay out all the parts, it will never come together. Yet many people believe everything (not manmade) we see around us came about by chance and evolved into all the different things we see today. Just because a person discovers a new insect or bird or fish, etc, it does not mean it was not already in existence for hundreds of years. Much like a criminal. "First offenders" have usually done previous criminal acts, it is just the first time they have been caught.

 

[MCummings]

Originally posted by illflem

Older than Methuselah



Always liked that one.

Methuselah was 969 years old when Noah's flood got him.



Some people think that the long lives some people in the Bible were reported to have lived is a misinterpretation, it was supposed to be months not years. At 969 months Methuselah would have still been 80. 5 years old.

Genesis 5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. 28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.



As you can see,, Noah was born 182 Years (in months. . 15 years?) after Methuselah was born.



I don't believe the month vs. years argument.



Adam would have had a son (Seth) at 10 yrs old, and died at 77 yrs old.

Seth, would have been 8yrs old when he had his first son (Enos), and died at 77.

Enos would have been 7 yrs old when he had his first son (Cainan), and died at 75.

Cainan would have had his first son (Mahalaleel) at the grand age of, 5yrs old.



Enoch, had his first son Methuselah, at age 5 also, and died at 30.



If, still following the month vs. yrs concept, dieing at 70-80 yrs old, the people in the bible would have experianced maturity nearly identical to what we experiance today.



Care for me to continue?

I think this idea is somewhat preposterious, and lightly founded.



It makes much more sense for Enoch to have had a son at 65 yrs old, and was transformed (he did not die, but went literally on a walk with God to heaven), at 365 yrs old.



I think one reason man lived so long was the layer of water that covered the earth. Before the flood, the Earth was watered with great springs from under the Earth, and the Dew. It did not rain like it does today.

John 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

After the Flood, (and I can't seem to find this verse either) God appointed that man was to live 70yrs, and anymore was a blessing from God.



Merrick Cummings Jr

 

[Rman]

Koa Man, one thing i'd like to point out in your observation. The things you speak of in your examples, the truck, the hut etc... are lifeless inanimate objects. You throw living, breathing, funtioning orgainisms together and it's a whole different story but i'm not going to argue.

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by MCummings

After the Flood, (and I can't seem to find this verse either) God appointed that man was to live 70yrs, and anymore was a blessing from God.

Finally found it Psalms 90:10



rhickman,

I believe my views on that point have been stated enough and agree lifeless things and living things are different, BUT.....

 

[RustyJC]

Evolution tells us that lower forms of life have evolved/are evolving into higher forms.



The Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that entropy (basically, disorder) of the universe is increasing - IOW, that, barring outside factors, systems move from a state of higher order toward ever increasing disorder.



Any inconsistencies there???



Rusty

 

[Rman]

here's an interesting read Rusty, it attempts to answer what you've proposed. Good point, it's an on going arguement here is one guys (he uses several others as well) rationale.



http://www.panspermia.org/seconlaw.htm

 

[RustyJC]

Interesting philosophical discussion, but weak on technical merit. But then again, what does a worn-out old mechanical engineer know?



Rusty

 

[Hohn]

He knows quite a bit. I found this discussion like you did-- good on philosophy, short on science.



It amuses me that we are so eager to discount what appears to be a "universal law" when it discredits the higher aim of accounting for our universe without the intervention of some higher power-- a Creator.



Justin

 

[Steve M]

Main Entry: evo·lu·tion

Pronunciation: "e-v&-'lü-sh&n, "E-v&-

Function: noun

Etymology: Latin evolution-, evolutio unrolling, from evolvere

Date: 1622

1 : one of a set of prescribed movements

2 a : a process of change in a certain direction : UNFOLDING b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off : EMISSION c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : GROWTH (2) : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance d : something evolved

3 : the process of working out or developing

4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species) : PHYLOGENY b : a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations

5 : the extraction of a mathematical root

6 : a process in which the whole universe is a progression of interrelated phenomena



I see nothing in the definition of evolution as being chance. Nothing at all of parts of anything strewn about the earth coming together such as a watch or truck. What I do see is a very logical explanation of how we may have come to exist whether through biological adaptation or through the hands of God, which to me are one and the same.

Adam and Eve were smarter than man today? I guess that explains why we think the earth is round and revolves around the sun.

Has anyone calculated just what an undertaking it would be to house two of every species of every animal on earth for forty days plus days of travel, roundup (does the Bible mention who scurried on down to Australia to pick up the many species of animals native to that continent only?) and redistribution? Did polar bears take El Al Airlines? The big bang theory is pale in comparison. Talking snakes? A human being turning into a pillar of salt? The loony bin is open 24 hours a day. I tend to believe God is much more real than the good book portrays. The truth is all around us if we open our eyes.

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by Steve M

Has anyone calculated just what an undertaking it would be to house two of every species of every animal on earth for forty days plus days of travel, roundup (does the Bible mention who scurried on down to Australia to pick up the many species of animals native to that continent only?) and redistribution? Did polar bears take El Al Airlines? The big bang theory is pale in comparison. Talking snakes? A human being turning into a pillar of salt? The loony bin is open 24 hours a day. I tend to believe God is much more real than the good book portrays. The truth is all around us if we open our eyes.

As a matter of fact, researchers did calculate that task.

The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by God, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds. ” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by God were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.



The Bible says Satan spoke through the serpent. He was the one making it look like the serpent was speaking, much like a ventriloquist today. Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt when sulfur and brimstone fell on her when she stopped to look back as Sodom was being destroyed.

 

[klenger]

You can never explain all the events in the Bible from science. Some of the events are just miracles with no scientific explanation. The flood is one of those events, which is why finding it would put the science community in a tailspin. I am perfectly happy not being able to explain some things.



It requires faith to be a believer. Biggest miracle of all is that He thought I was worthy of eternal life.

 

[milehiscott]

Originally posted by Steve M



I see nothing in the definition of evolution as being chance. Nothing at all of parts of anything strewn about the earth coming together such as a watch or truck.

What most people are referring to is Darwinsitic Macro-evolution. This is a modern theory based on Darwin's theory of evolution. Which, is essence, states that, given enough time, life forms evolve to higher and higher forms of life. This is where the survival of the fittest and monkeys to humans ideas come from.

This is different from Micro-evolution. Micro-evolution is the evolution within a genus to produce new species of plants and animals (ie. breed a black dog with a white dog get a black and white dog). No one ever talks about micro-evolution because there is no debate. We see it all of the time.

Macro-evolution, however is a theory in crises. The scientific community has based many theories of life on this idea. Unfortunately, it is not working. A good book on that subject is "Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution" by Dr. Michael Behe.



Scott

 

[Doc Tinker]

I think man evolved from a pig and we are really revolving, not evolving.



Doc

 

[crobertson1]

Steve M-you said "I believe God created our earth " but you don't think He would be able to a human (which He created ) into a pillar of salt?

 

[Steve M]

I don't believe He is a side-show magician. I believe He is the guiding spirit that created our universe through millions of years of evolution. I believe God is real. I don't believe God turns people into pillars of salt. What next, does He pull a rabbit out of a hat? One thing I truly believe is, if religious people would come out of the dark ages and look at the reality that science offers, there would be more religious people. Layers of earth telling the story of millions of years of evolution is telling me the magnitude of God's creation. It's not denying it, it's proving it. For me it's not about faith. The truth about God is all around us. It's written in stone with God's very own signature if we'll simply open our eyes and look around.