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what is a "Christian" ?
- Thread starter lizzyhermit
- Start Date
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I also grew up in a church that was full of hypocrites. :-{}
I got burned and now I have a hard time trusting church people but I still go to church about 90% of the time. Going to church every Sunday doesn't make me better than anyone else but it helps me keep things in perspective. A lot of the guys in our church are pretty fun to be around. We go shooting or 4-wheeling together and enjoy a lot of good conversations together.
I think church should be about people who trust in God helping other people. Kind of like TDR people. Dodge Cummins people trying to help other people.
Recently I have been trying to help out with our Jr. High kids once in a while because I think that kids are our country's future. It amazes me how little some parents, even "Christian" parents, care about their kids.
We are all imperfect people in an imperfect world. I know I have done some things that are not "Christ-like" but I try to stay on the path and set a good example.
God Bless.
I got burned and now I have a hard time trusting church people but I still go to church about 90% of the time. Going to church every Sunday doesn't make me better than anyone else but it helps me keep things in perspective. A lot of the guys in our church are pretty fun to be around. We go shooting or 4-wheeling together and enjoy a lot of good conversations together.
I think church should be about people who trust in God helping other people. Kind of like TDR people. Dodge Cummins people trying to help other people.
Recently I have been trying to help out with our Jr. High kids once in a while because I think that kids are our country's future. It amazes me how little some parents, even "Christian" parents, care about their kids.
We are all imperfect people in an imperfect world. I know I have done some things that are not "Christ-like" but I try to stay on the path and set a good example.
God Bless.
I wish this was true all the time and according to God's Word this is what should be seen in a Christians life.
Again, Biblically speaking, this has to do with the Chirst Question.
Did that person accept Christ as their personal Saviour? When they did, it doesn't mean they got cured/delivered of all their bad habits and evil ways.
I bailed a person out of Jail that had a terrible childhood, went to Vietnam at 18 and killed people (?), had his first date with a ***** in Bangkok for $1. 00, when he got State side people spit on him calling him a baby killer. He had a terrible time with relationships male and female. He would strike out at people (Hit them) if he got angry, he would cheat people in business when it benifited him. He was an all round bad guy.
I had the priviledge of telling him about Jesus who loved him unconditionally, and would forgive all of his short comings and sins. I witnessed the change in his spirit as he accepted Christ as his saviour. Peace came into his life and tears of joy gushed out of his eyes as he saw the "Light" for the first time.
Weeks later, some people complained about Craig and the way he treated others; I told them he had accepted Christ as his Saviour and was now a Christian (a Believer-not perfected), they told me that if Craig were a Christian then they wanted NO Part of Christianity.
Sadly people look at others lives to judge Christianity instead of Jesus's life, death and resurrection.
When a person gets saved, they still have free choice as how they live their lives, God didn't make robots of Christians.
No one gets away with anything; The unsaved will be judged at the Great White Throne of Judgement; The Saved will be judged at the Judgement seat of Christ. "For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God. " 1 Peter 4:17
"For we (Christians) must ALL appear before the judgement seat of Chirst; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. " II Corinthians 5:10. This speaks to rewards and placement in heaven or the lack thereof.
Salvation is a gift (Christs life in exchange for your sins) it isn't dependant upon what you do or don't do, it's strictly Belief that Jesus Christ did what he said he would do, give his righteous life for the ungodly world full of sins.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works (doing and don'ting), lest any man should boast. " Ephesians 2:8-9.
Regards,
Lowell
When I first read the lead posts, I was getting excited, thinking that I would have something to say. So much good has already been said-- I hope this contributes to the fray.
It has been said that the only problem with Christianity is that there are Christians. Obviously, this points to a glaring problem within the Church (as in all who accept Christ as savior): hypocrisy.
I had to deal with this as a teenager. See, I grew up as the son of an ordained Assmebly of God minister. Yet my parents divorced when I was 16. Does THAT qualify as hypocrisy to you? As a result, I blamed God, threw the "baby out with the bathwater" and rejected the idea of living by what I new to be true.
But then I realized something (or maybe God showed me, who knows. . )
If the hypocrisy you see grieves you greatly, ask yourself: why? Is it because we are looking to others to be an example to us? Hebrews 12:2 says instead that we ought to be "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
Clearly, we are to look to Christ alone as our example.
Pointing out the hypocrisy in others appeals strongly to our fallen nature. If we can see the shortcomings of someone else, it helps us to feel better about our own sad state of affairs. It helps us to justify ourselves, ("I'm not so bad, especially compared to... ").
But the Bible says clearly (in Romans i think) that "ALL have sinned; ALL have come short of the glory of God".
That tells me that there is no shortage of sinful people. Moreover, if I want to look to THEM as my example, I will always be able to satisfy my OWN sinful desire to feel like I am better than someone else.
Ever see that bumper sticker that says "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"? I HATE THAT STICKER. That saying was coined by someone who had conveniently forgotten that he too had sinned and come short of God's glory. It comes off as so holier-than-thou. It's almost as if the person who has that sticker is saying:" I know I am a hypocrite, but because God forgave my sins, I have a right to my hypocrisy"
GAG! I take great offense to this sticker.
Jesus spoke often about hypocrisy, and how the disciples were not to be hypocrites like the religious leaders of the day:
What it boils down to is this: salvation is indeed a free gift, but we will have to give an account of what we did with that gift. Not only that, but there are some who will not receive the gift at all.
So are we saved by grace or works? The answer is YES! Grace saves us. (For by grace we are saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast- Ephesians 2:8). But notice that we are saved through FAITH. Faith has two parts: trust and obedience. Faith is trusting God for that which we don't know or understand, while obeying that which we DO know or understand. In order for us to obey, we must do good works.
(Mt 16:37-"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works")
The discussion of works in the Bible is often taken to mean that you don't need to do good things. This is wrong. The Bible is saying simply that we cannot EARN our way to heaven by doing good things, because no matter how hard we might try, we are still unworthy.
The main criticism the Bible has against works is against the Jewish Law. In the day, many believed that they could earn salvation by keeping the tenets of the Jewish Law. Paul (writing to the Jews) said that the law brings condemnation, because 1) it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the whoel law, and 2) if you are guilty of any part of the law, then you are guilty of the WHOLE law.
Since James tells us that faith without works is dead, and we can't be saved by our works, then what? Good works are simply the outward manifestation of the inner transformation that God has done in our lives by His power and Grace. Good works are not a cause of salvation. Rather, receiving salvation will cause us to desire that which is good-- including good works.
Sorry to ramble on for so long. These are just some of the things that God is teaching me.
If I knew my Bible half as well as I know my truck, I would be in a lot better shape.
Justin
It has been said that the only problem with Christianity is that there are Christians. Obviously, this points to a glaring problem within the Church (as in all who accept Christ as savior): hypocrisy.
I had to deal with this as a teenager. See, I grew up as the son of an ordained Assmebly of God minister. Yet my parents divorced when I was 16. Does THAT qualify as hypocrisy to you? As a result, I blamed God, threw the "baby out with the bathwater" and rejected the idea of living by what I new to be true.
But then I realized something (or maybe God showed me, who knows. . )
If the hypocrisy you see grieves you greatly, ask yourself: why? Is it because we are looking to others to be an example to us? Hebrews 12:2 says instead that we ought to be "looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
Clearly, we are to look to Christ alone as our example.
Pointing out the hypocrisy in others appeals strongly to our fallen nature. If we can see the shortcomings of someone else, it helps us to feel better about our own sad state of affairs. It helps us to justify ourselves, ("I'm not so bad, especially compared to... ").
But the Bible says clearly (in Romans i think) that "ALL have sinned; ALL have come short of the glory of God".
That tells me that there is no shortage of sinful people. Moreover, if I want to look to THEM as my example, I will always be able to satisfy my OWN sinful desire to feel like I am better than someone else.
Ever see that bumper sticker that says "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"? I HATE THAT STICKER. That saying was coined by someone who had conveniently forgotten that he too had sinned and come short of God's glory. It comes off as so holier-than-thou. It's almost as if the person who has that sticker is saying:" I know I am a hypocrite, but because God forgave my sins, I have a right to my hypocrisy"
GAG! I take great offense to this sticker. Jesus spoke often about hypocrisy, and how the disciples were not to be hypocrites like the religious leaders of the day:
What it boils down to is this: salvation is indeed a free gift, but we will have to give an account of what we did with that gift. Not only that, but there are some who will not receive the gift at all.
So are we saved by grace or works? The answer is YES! Grace saves us. (For by grace we are saved through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast- Ephesians 2:8). But notice that we are saved through FAITH. Faith has two parts: trust and obedience. Faith is trusting God for that which we don't know or understand, while obeying that which we DO know or understand. In order for us to obey, we must do good works.
(Mt 16:37-"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works")
The discussion of works in the Bible is often taken to mean that you don't need to do good things. This is wrong. The Bible is saying simply that we cannot EARN our way to heaven by doing good things, because no matter how hard we might try, we are still unworthy.
The main criticism the Bible has against works is against the Jewish Law. In the day, many believed that they could earn salvation by keeping the tenets of the Jewish Law. Paul (writing to the Jews) said that the law brings condemnation, because 1) it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the whoel law, and 2) if you are guilty of any part of the law, then you are guilty of the WHOLE law.
Since James tells us that faith without works is dead, and we can't be saved by our works, then what? Good works are simply the outward manifestation of the inner transformation that God has done in our lives by His power and Grace. Good works are not a cause of salvation. Rather, receiving salvation will cause us to desire that which is good-- including good works.
Sorry to ramble on for so long. These are just some of the things that God is teaching me.
If I knew my Bible half as well as I know my truck, I would be in a lot better shape.
Justin
Justin,
I agree with you on the premise of good works. Paul, James and the rest of the writing apostles are in agreement that good works should follow salvation.
Again the Christians choice comes into play. I heard it said once; A bird doesn't have to try to fly, it naturally flys because it's a bird; A fish doesn't have to try and swim, it naturally swims because it's a fish; A Christians life should be the same, spiritually good works should come to pass because they are Christians, but they choose the way they live.
Since the Christian has two minds he must choose which one to listen to. The spiritual would have him do the works of God, the "old man" flesh would have them do the works of the carnal mind, the world and the Devil.
Paul continued after this statement that we were saved by grace and not of works. -----"For we are his workmanship, created in Chirst Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them. ( choice again).
Titus 3:8 and 14 "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These thing are good and profitable unto men. " (Judgement seat of Christ = rewards)
"And let ours also LEARN to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. "
Many who have responded here are critical of Christians who seem to say and represent one thing and then do something else. Again they are right to complain, it shouldn't be this way.
Peter speaks to that very issue. "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation (how you live your life) honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. " I Peter 2:11-12
Unfortunately, for many Christians, Peters beseeching (means to literally beg someone to do something) to live Godly and to do that which is right in God eyes and mans, is rejected or unheeded.
These Christians that cause people to fall away or to speak evil of Christ and the Church will come into judgement for this; Not for salvation but for placement and rewards.
Regards,
Lowell
I agree with you on the premise of good works. Paul, James and the rest of the writing apostles are in agreement that good works should follow salvation.
Again the Christians choice comes into play. I heard it said once; A bird doesn't have to try to fly, it naturally flys because it's a bird; A fish doesn't have to try and swim, it naturally swims because it's a fish; A Christians life should be the same, spiritually good works should come to pass because they are Christians, but they choose the way they live.
Since the Christian has two minds he must choose which one to listen to. The spiritual would have him do the works of God, the "old man" flesh would have them do the works of the carnal mind, the world and the Devil.
Paul continued after this statement that we were saved by grace and not of works. -----"For we are his workmanship, created in Chirst Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them. ( choice again).
Titus 3:8 and 14 "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These thing are good and profitable unto men. " (Judgement seat of Christ = rewards)
"And let ours also LEARN to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful. "
Many who have responded here are critical of Christians who seem to say and represent one thing and then do something else. Again they are right to complain, it shouldn't be this way.
Peter speaks to that very issue. "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation (how you live your life) honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. " I Peter 2:11-12
Unfortunately, for many Christians, Peters beseeching (means to literally beg someone to do something) to live Godly and to do that which is right in God eyes and mans, is rejected or unheeded.
These Christians that cause people to fall away or to speak evil of Christ and the Church will come into judgement for this; Not for salvation but for placement and rewards.
Regards,
Lowell
Interesting thought
For those who reject the Bible and Christ because of Hypocrites. .
I have had people more than once say to me that they will not seek God or go to church because there are Hypocrites there.
Well, when you are answering God for you life, he could ask you ----Did you ever go the movies?; Did you ever go to Work? ; Did you ever go to the grocery store? You know there were Hypocrites at all of these places don't you?
And ---- if we are all honest (to thine own self be true); we all are hypocrites in some form or another, aren't we?
This may not be the best excuse to give.
Regards,
Lowell
For those who reject the Bible and Christ because of Hypocrites. .
I have had people more than once say to me that they will not seek God or go to church because there are Hypocrites there.
Well, when you are answering God for you life, he could ask you ----Did you ever go the movies?; Did you ever go to Work? ; Did you ever go to the grocery store? You know there were Hypocrites at all of these places don't you?
And ---- if we are all honest (to thine own self be true); we all are hypocrites in some form or another, aren't we?
This may not be the best excuse to give.
Regards,
Lowell
There's a big difference in movies, work, grocery store and church. I very seldom go to a movie. We usually rent or buy a DVD to watch at home. Movies are entertainment. I get paid to go to work. I'm usually by myself or with my neighboring mechanic on one of our routes. We're elevator mechanics. It's a very interesting job. We go to the grocery store for food. The people there are going about there business buying their groceries like us. The employees are helpful and friendly but not intrusive. Church is where you go for "fellowship and involvement" with other members to collectively worship God. I'm not a fellowship kind of guy. I'm more of a solitary soul. Jesus said we should pray in our closets. That doesn't mean under our clean shirts. It's means our religion is a private matter and when we make it a public matter, problems arise. Kinda goes along with separation of church and state. So fellowship type people pray behind the closed doors of their churches with their congregations. I feel closer to God in the great outdoors that God created. But I'm quiet about it and considerate of other's beliefs that are different than mine.
Steve, I can see where you are coming from. Jesus often taught that we shouldn't be like the religious leaders of his day, who did their good deeds in public to be seen by all. Jesus said that when we fast, we should keep it secret, not scowl our faces and draw attention to it like the Pharisees did. Jesus said that we should give our money in private, not ring bells on our garments to draw attention to ourselves. Also, Jesus told us to pray in our closets, yes-- not to make loud obnoxious prayers designed to draw attention to ourselves like the Pharisees did.
But the Bible also says that we are to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel. " So what are we as Christians to do?
I share the Gospel when the topic comes up, or when someone asks me what I believe. The Bible instructs us to "be ready always to give an answer to any man who asks you the reason for the joyous hope within you" (1Peter3:15).
So i generally believe that it's not my place to beat someone over the head, condemn them, or judge them. But if someone asks me why I am so happy and why I have perpetual hope and peace, there is really only one reason; and if someone asks me, they will hear how Jesus has reclaimed my sorry life, taken an unworthy person like me and restored me to a position of right standing with God through the cross of Christ, and his blood which has made possible the forgiveness of my sin.
Personally, I think that beating people over the head by telling them how sinful they are and such is the wrong approach. The Bible says (roughly) that attempting to "convert" the unwilling is like "casting pearls before swine".
Justin
But the Bible also says that we are to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel. " So what are we as Christians to do?
I share the Gospel when the topic comes up, or when someone asks me what I believe. The Bible instructs us to "be ready always to give an answer to any man who asks you the reason for the joyous hope within you" (1Peter3:15).
So i generally believe that it's not my place to beat someone over the head, condemn them, or judge them. But if someone asks me why I am so happy and why I have perpetual hope and peace, there is really only one reason; and if someone asks me, they will hear how Jesus has reclaimed my sorry life, taken an unworthy person like me and restored me to a position of right standing with God through the cross of Christ, and his blood which has made possible the forgiveness of my sin.
Personally, I think that beating people over the head by telling them how sinful they are and such is the wrong approach. The Bible says (roughly) that attempting to "convert" the unwilling is like "casting pearls before swine".
Justin
Mike Ellis
TDR MEMBER
I am in line in a lot of ways with Doc Tinker and Steve, I am not a big fan of fellowship and social gatherings - the closest I have ever felt to God is out in the great outdoors, or spending time with my wife and kids and marvelling at the grace of creation which favored me to know them.
Church was tough on me when I was a kid, because I have been since my very youngest days an introspective and questioning sort. When I am being taught, in class or in a sermon, I actually THINK about what they are saying. I read the Bible passages, and often wondered how the preacher could get a meaning totally different from it than I. I also realized while still pretty young how easy it was for someone to pull any meaning they wish out of the Bible by using the "string passages together from different books in any order we want" routine. Still bothers me to this day.
I was always bothered by the fact that so much of what is taught in church is contradictory. "Praise God for every good thing that happens to you, but be silent about the bad. Good things are God's work, but bad stuff just sorta happens. " "Today I am teaching you that salvation is for ever, and if you do your best to be a good Christian you are doing a good job. Tomorrow I am teaching you that you are a miserable, worthless slob for every mistake you have ever made. " "Yes, Ted Bundy can accept Christ on Death Row and be saved and we should love him like a brother, but if you see Mary Jane Backslider drinking a glass of wine at a restaurant you should SHUN HER... "
Eventually I realized that when these contradictions occur, it is either because people purposely MISUSE the Bible and God's teachings to further their own ends, or because our understanding of the word is imperfect. People are not perfect. Pastors are not perfect. Mike Ellis is not perfect. Mistakes will be made, and how we deal with them shows much about our OWN character. I realized that it is not a sin to question, to wonder - and that not everything that is said from the pulpit is necessarily true. (That last one took a long time to come to grips with, as I was raised to view the pastor as a cut above the rest of us).
Ultimately, I believe everybody's walk with God to be an intensely personal one, that nobody else can truly understand. We can share and benefit from fellowship, but our relationship is something that is inside us and that only God can see. It isn't reflected by the clothes we wear, what we drink, how we dance, whether we have music at church, or whether we celebrate Halloween or let our kids believe in Santa Claus. Church and fellowship are important and useful, but I would still be a Christian if stuck in solitary confinement to the end of my days.
I also have a different view on hypocrisy - doesn't bother me a bit what other people do. Their problems are their own. The lady in the next pew might be a huge bingo player, but tell me complacently that gambling is something to avoid. The man in the pulpit might be a problem drinker, but tell me that alcoholism destroys families. The leader of the choir might be having an affair, but teach her youth group that screwing around is a bad mistake. In each case, I can learn from their teachings and apply it to MYSELF while acknowledging that they have failed to so themselves. They aren't perfect, but then again I never expected them to be. Why should I? There are none righteous, not even one.
Church was tough on me when I was a kid, because I have been since my very youngest days an introspective and questioning sort. When I am being taught, in class or in a sermon, I actually THINK about what they are saying. I read the Bible passages, and often wondered how the preacher could get a meaning totally different from it than I. I also realized while still pretty young how easy it was for someone to pull any meaning they wish out of the Bible by using the "string passages together from different books in any order we want" routine. Still bothers me to this day.
I was always bothered by the fact that so much of what is taught in church is contradictory. "Praise God for every good thing that happens to you, but be silent about the bad. Good things are God's work, but bad stuff just sorta happens. " "Today I am teaching you that salvation is for ever, and if you do your best to be a good Christian you are doing a good job. Tomorrow I am teaching you that you are a miserable, worthless slob for every mistake you have ever made. " "Yes, Ted Bundy can accept Christ on Death Row and be saved and we should love him like a brother, but if you see Mary Jane Backslider drinking a glass of wine at a restaurant you should SHUN HER... "
Eventually I realized that when these contradictions occur, it is either because people purposely MISUSE the Bible and God's teachings to further their own ends, or because our understanding of the word is imperfect. People are not perfect. Pastors are not perfect. Mike Ellis is not perfect. Mistakes will be made, and how we deal with them shows much about our OWN character. I realized that it is not a sin to question, to wonder - and that not everything that is said from the pulpit is necessarily true. (That last one took a long time to come to grips with, as I was raised to view the pastor as a cut above the rest of us).
Ultimately, I believe everybody's walk with God to be an intensely personal one, that nobody else can truly understand. We can share and benefit from fellowship, but our relationship is something that is inside us and that only God can see. It isn't reflected by the clothes we wear, what we drink, how we dance, whether we have music at church, or whether we celebrate Halloween or let our kids believe in Santa Claus. Church and fellowship are important and useful, but I would still be a Christian if stuck in solitary confinement to the end of my days.
I also have a different view on hypocrisy - doesn't bother me a bit what other people do. Their problems are their own. The lady in the next pew might be a huge bingo player, but tell me complacently that gambling is something to avoid. The man in the pulpit might be a problem drinker, but tell me that alcoholism destroys families. The leader of the choir might be having an affair, but teach her youth group that screwing around is a bad mistake. In each case, I can learn from their teachings and apply it to MYSELF while acknowledging that they have failed to so themselves. They aren't perfect, but then again I never expected them to be. Why should I? There are none righteous, not even one.
Something to ponder
While it is certainly a good thing to be outdoors and appreciate God's creation, the Bible says clearly that it is also a good thing for Christians to assemble together.
Hebrews 10:24-25--
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25_not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. .
Also, the Bible says that no man is an island unto himself, both when God declared that "it is not good for a man to be alone" just before he created Eve, and also in that verse that says "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there i am in the midst of them" (Matt 18:20).
Finally, we must remember that it is OUR responsibility to seek God, just as He is desiring that we would seek Him.
Matt 7:7--"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "
Heb 11:6--"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. "
I empathize with those who struggle with the human aspects of church, and the problems that they can cause. But I encourage you to continue seeking God, and a church that teaches the Word.
Justin
While it is certainly a good thing to be outdoors and appreciate God's creation, the Bible says clearly that it is also a good thing for Christians to assemble together.
Hebrews 10:24-25--
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25_not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. .
Also, the Bible says that no man is an island unto himself, both when God declared that "it is not good for a man to be alone" just before he created Eve, and also in that verse that says "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there i am in the midst of them" (Matt 18:20).
Finally, we must remember that it is OUR responsibility to seek God, just as He is desiring that we would seek Him.
Matt 7:7--"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. "
Heb 11:6--"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. "
I empathize with those who struggle with the human aspects of church, and the problems that they can cause. But I encourage you to continue seeking God, and a church that teaches the Word.
Justin
Mike Ellis
TDR MEMBER
Hohn,
No argument from me that church can be a good thing, testimony of good experiences abound. I consider my own church to be quite a good one.
However, church attendance is not a requirement for salvation, no matter how much the financial committee might wish it were so. The guys who read their Bible and enjoy fishing on the lake and thanking God for His creation every Sunday are going to go the exact same heaven as the never-miss-a-Sunday ice cream supper committee leader - as long as they both TRULY believe.
No argument from me that church can be a good thing, testimony of good experiences abound. I consider my own church to be quite a good one.
However, church attendance is not a requirement for salvation, no matter how much the financial committee might wish it were so. The guys who read their Bible and enjoy fishing on the lake and thanking God for His creation every Sunday are going to go the exact same heaven as the never-miss-a-Sunday ice cream supper committee leader - as long as they both TRULY believe.
so the above quoted Hebrew 10:24,25 can be ignored and rationalized? whereby, my original claim stands: you can claim to be a "christian" and do whatever you want, regardless of the what God's word states?
pretty soon we'd be believing that a "christian" can steal, extort, commit adultery, worship other gods, kill someone and justify that as long as he believes, he will "inherit the kingdom of God".
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 seems to indicate otherwise. And verse 11 would indicate that those who take advantage of the sacrifice of Christ would desist purposefully practicing actions contary to the actions of God's holy spirit.
pretty soon we'd be believing that a "christian" can steal, extort, commit adultery, worship other gods, kill someone and justify that as long as he believes, he will "inherit the kingdom of God".
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 seems to indicate otherwise. And verse 11 would indicate that those who take advantage of the sacrifice of Christ would desist purposefully practicing actions contary to the actions of God's holy spirit.
No arguing that. I am not as cynical about the finances, lol.
There is a verse that says that each of us should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling". I am not sure how to take that, but it seems to imply that there's a very personal part of salvation that no one besides you and God can understand.
Justin
Back to my earlier comment about "grace versus works".
I believe we're starting to see how many people can be turned off by organized religion. We find a verse that talks about dressing modestly, and some sect establishes a doctrine that women cannot wear jewelry, must wear dresses that cover their ankles with sleeves that cover their wrists, that men must be clean shaven with "white sidewall" haircuts and wear black suits with white shirts. If they don't conform, they must not be saved.
Ditto with church attendance. No vacations allowed. If the attendance sheet doesn't show 100%, they must not be dedicated enough; therefore, they must not be saved.
This is precisely the problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees - they were teaching the commandments and traditions of men as if they were the commandments of God.
Yes, the Bible puts forth valid principles that Christians should endeavor to follow. The problem comes when man starts "proof-texting" them as justification for their own set of rules and regulations.
Rusty
I believe we're starting to see how many people can be turned off by organized religion. We find a verse that talks about dressing modestly, and some sect establishes a doctrine that women cannot wear jewelry, must wear dresses that cover their ankles with sleeves that cover their wrists, that men must be clean shaven with "white sidewall" haircuts and wear black suits with white shirts. If they don't conform, they must not be saved.
Ditto with church attendance. No vacations allowed. If the attendance sheet doesn't show 100%, they must not be dedicated enough; therefore, they must not be saved.
This is precisely the problem that Jesus had with the Pharisees - they were teaching the commandments and traditions of men as if they were the commandments of God.
Yes, the Bible puts forth valid principles that Christians should endeavor to follow. The problem comes when man starts "proof-texting" them as justification for their own set of rules and regulations.
Rusty
I don't think your reasoning is sound, though I can appreciate where you are coming from because I too worry about the "slippery slope".
The Bible says that even the DEMONS believe, and TREMBLE. Does that mean that THEY will receive salvation?
The grey area between works and faith is not as grey as some want it to be. Yes, the Biblical standard of salvation is belief and belief alone. ("not of works, lest any man should boast"). It is GRACE that saves us through faith.
The Bible also makes it pretty plain that when it says "belief" it means something different that we commonly take it to mean.
For example, many might say they believe it is wrong to break the law. Yet, these same people will speed and break the laws governing the speed limit. Truly, they can't say they REALLY believe in ALWAYS following the law, now can they?
The point is, we as humans will act according to what we REALLY believe. This is why the Bible says "by their fruits, you shall know them. Can I fig tree bear grapes, or a grapevine bear figs?"
Our actions reveal our true colors.
What it boils down to is this-- we have to ask ourselves what we REALLY believe. If we TRULY were thankful for the food we eat (as we often say when we pray), we would NEVER complain about its taste. If we REALLY were striving to be more like Christ, we wouldn't get angry at the poor driver that just cut us off.
It's time for each of us to take inventory of just how much hypocrisy there is in our own lives. Maybe Rusty can help me with the log in MY eye... .
Justin
There's More!!!!
Justin and others,
Glad you brought up this portion of scripture found in Philippians 2:12. We know that salvation is by grace through faith; Paul the same writer of this scripture has another thought in mind and actually is behind much of his doctrines that God had him set forth.
If the only thing the Bible wanted you to know is Salvation, then it would be a one page, one paragraph Book. Salvation is for the whole world, to anyone who would believe. John 3:16.
Jude wrote "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the COMMON SALVATION , it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. " (vs 3).
The verse you brought up work out your own salvation with fear and trembling is simple. What part of the salvation plan do you want? Do you want to stay in babyhood or do you want to grow into the fullness of Christ or somewhere inbetween, my feeling is that most want to stay babies, because very few Christians go on to full maturity. Analogy= What part of common schooling do you want? Do you want to just get through grade school? High School? College? or do you want more = Grad School? It's all up to you and it does take work (ie. study, committment and lifestyle)
The textus receptus, majority text and authorized version are the only texts that quote II Timothy 2:15 "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ASHAMED rightly dividing the word of truth. "
Paul in I Corinthians 9:24-27 shows why he and every other Christian that wants more should tremble. "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (What is he refering to?, it's not common salvation the gift). And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate (disiplined) in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly (he knows what the goal is); so fight I not as one that beatheth the air (he understands spiritual warfare): But I keep under my body (keep my body under control), and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (=Greek word adokimos=unapproved or rejected) Again unapproved from what, not salvation it was a gift.
I in my posts have brought up several times about rewards and placement, but no one has commented. Jesus had somewhat to say about this. I don't want to write a non fictional novel but ponder these portions of Gods word.
Remember in Matthew chapters 19 and 20 (other gospels too)where the disciples were arguing about what was in it for them because they had forsaken all they past lives to follow Jesus; Matthew 19:27 "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (If I may, Peter=What's in it for us to live this way?)
Jesus said when he sat on his throne of Glory that he would give them each a throne and that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Well, no one else can have that PLACE of rulership, he promised it to the disciples. (shows a difference in the first resurrection. )
Now for the interesting part, James and John knew that there was even a better place than having their own thrones that ruled over Israel, so they got their mother to ask Jesus to have them sit on either side when the kingdom was come. (The king = Jesus,---- where they wanted was the place that a queen would be in a government run by a King). Then after Jesus questioned them about their servitude as to drinking the cup (self denial and suffering) and being baptised with the baptism that Jesus had, obviously not water because they were already baptised. This baptism was talking about being associated with the work that Jesus was about and that he commissioned them to do. (There are other studies one can do on baptisms ie. like being baptised into Moses; I Cor 10:2.
Anyway, After this conversation Jesus told them that He couldn't give this PLACE to them,---- "but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Math 20:23 This now leads us up to Pauls gospel; after all, this is why God had him set forth the doctrines that fulfilled the word of God (there aren't any more so no one should be adding to the word of God! )
Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;" AND
Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according TO MY GOSPEL. "
Here is my final thought on this reply, since most Christians are not taught that there is more to this. They are taught that when we get to heaven that we are all the same, sitting on a cloud strumming a harp or something else boring like that, and there is no difference. . Why then live Godly, you can cheat, steal, decieve and live like you want and still be the same as the apostles and others who gave their lives for their Christain principles? God forbid!! I think scripture shows us that our God is a just God and is no respecter of persons and will met out righteous judgement. All Christains being the same in heaven wouldn't be right. -----And so for my final scripture to back up this thought.
Hebrews 11:35 "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they MIGHT OBTAIN A BETTER RESURRECTION:"
If there is a better resurrection then they clearly understood that doctrine because some were tortured for it. Notice it said "might" and in any dictionary that doesn't mean =certainly or without a doubt.
Again, a better resurrection means that there is a least one that isn't as good of a resurrection. Hence work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Where do you want to be?
I have lots more I could go to about this subject in God's Holy word but it looks like I did write to long. Sorry.
Regards,
Lowell
Justin and others,
Glad you brought up this portion of scripture found in Philippians 2:12. We know that salvation is by grace through faith; Paul the same writer of this scripture has another thought in mind and actually is behind much of his doctrines that God had him set forth.
If the only thing the Bible wanted you to know is Salvation, then it would be a one page, one paragraph Book. Salvation is for the whole world, to anyone who would believe. John 3:16.
Jude wrote "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the COMMON SALVATION , it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. " (vs 3).
The verse you brought up work out your own salvation with fear and trembling is simple. What part of the salvation plan do you want? Do you want to stay in babyhood or do you want to grow into the fullness of Christ or somewhere inbetween, my feeling is that most want to stay babies, because very few Christians go on to full maturity. Analogy= What part of common schooling do you want? Do you want to just get through grade school? High School? College? or do you want more = Grad School? It's all up to you and it does take work (ie. study, committment and lifestyle)
The textus receptus, majority text and authorized version are the only texts that quote II Timothy 2:15 "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ASHAMED rightly dividing the word of truth. "
Paul in I Corinthians 9:24-27 shows why he and every other Christian that wants more should tremble. "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (What is he refering to?, it's not common salvation the gift). And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate (disiplined) in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly (he knows what the goal is); so fight I not as one that beatheth the air (he understands spiritual warfare): But I keep under my body (keep my body under control), and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (=Greek word adokimos=unapproved or rejected) Again unapproved from what, not salvation it was a gift.
I in my posts have brought up several times about rewards and placement, but no one has commented. Jesus had somewhat to say about this. I don't want to write a non fictional novel but ponder these portions of Gods word.
Remember in Matthew chapters 19 and 20 (other gospels too)where the disciples were arguing about what was in it for them because they had forsaken all they past lives to follow Jesus; Matthew 19:27 "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (If I may, Peter=What's in it for us to live this way?)
Jesus said when he sat on his throne of Glory that he would give them each a throne and that they would rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Well, no one else can have that PLACE of rulership, he promised it to the disciples. (shows a difference in the first resurrection. )
Now for the interesting part, James and John knew that there was even a better place than having their own thrones that ruled over Israel, so they got their mother to ask Jesus to have them sit on either side when the kingdom was come. (The king = Jesus,---- where they wanted was the place that a queen would be in a government run by a King). Then after Jesus questioned them about their servitude as to drinking the cup (self denial and suffering) and being baptised with the baptism that Jesus had, obviously not water because they were already baptised. This baptism was talking about being associated with the work that Jesus was about and that he commissioned them to do. (There are other studies one can do on baptisms ie. like being baptised into Moses; I Cor 10:2.
Anyway, After this conversation Jesus told them that He couldn't give this PLACE to them,---- "but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Math 20:23 This now leads us up to Pauls gospel; after all, this is why God had him set forth the doctrines that fulfilled the word of God (there aren't any more so no one should be adding to the word of God! )
Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;" AND
Romans 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according TO MY GOSPEL. "
Here is my final thought on this reply, since most Christians are not taught that there is more to this. They are taught that when we get to heaven that we are all the same, sitting on a cloud strumming a harp or something else boring like that, and there is no difference. . Why then live Godly, you can cheat, steal, decieve and live like you want and still be the same as the apostles and others who gave their lives for their Christain principles? God forbid!! I think scripture shows us that our God is a just God and is no respecter of persons and will met out righteous judgement. All Christains being the same in heaven wouldn't be right. -----And so for my final scripture to back up this thought.
Hebrews 11:35 "Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they MIGHT OBTAIN A BETTER RESURRECTION:"
If there is a better resurrection then they clearly understood that doctrine because some were tortured for it. Notice it said "might" and in any dictionary that doesn't mean =certainly or without a doubt.
Again, a better resurrection means that there is a least one that isn't as good of a resurrection. Hence work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Where do you want to be?
I have lots more I could go to about this subject in God's Holy word but it looks like I did write to long. Sorry.
Regards,
Lowell
Read through these threads tonight and a thought struck me that the bible is a great manual. For example Psalms and Proverbs the best Manuals you can find on Faith and Wisdom. 
two classes in heaven? hmmmmm. how 'bout the better resurrection being one that did not lead to death again. ? those who were resurrectd by Jesus during his earthly life physically died again. those resurrected to heavenly life never die again...
... and if we're all going to heaven, both as rulers and subjects, why would God's kingdom need to come to earth (Mat. 6:9,10)? ..... why did John the Baptist not go to heaven (Mat. 11:11)? ... . why do the Psalms indicate the righteous would possess the earth (Ps. 37:9,11,29)... ... and if Adam/Eve had not sinned (chosen to disobey God) they would not have died (Gen. 2:16,17) and would have lived on where? Death was a punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life.
... and if we're all going to heaven, both as rulers and subjects, why would God's kingdom need to come to earth (Mat. 6:9,10)? ..... why did John the Baptist not go to heaven (Mat. 11:11)? ... . why do the Psalms indicate the righteous would possess the earth (Ps. 37:9,11,29)... ... and if Adam/Eve had not sinned (chosen to disobey God) they would not have died (Gen. 2:16,17) and would have lived on where? Death was a punishment for disobedience, not the doorway to a better life.
Lowell,
Generally, you are saying good thing. But i also detect in your writings an ... absoluteness that doesn't quite jive, a black/white dichotomy - one or t'other, but nowhere in the middle.
We each are not of two minds. We are of one mind. We are human and do what humans do. Specifically, we sin. We sin because we are not perfect. We are not perfect because we are not God.
As Christians, the first thing we must accept and believe is that we do err and always will. It follows that the first thing we must believe is that God will welcome us when we physically die. But we must want Him to. That is where faith comes in, faith that if we believe, He will welcome us, regardless of how we lived our lives here.
Building on that faith reinforces our daily lives. Granted, we will not be judged on our works, but on our faith. But it is by our works, our efforts, that we judge ourselves, that we gauge the depth and stength of our faith. It is how we live our lives that tells us how successful we are in following Jesus' principles.
We should never ask, "How am I doing, God?" Rather, we should ask, "How am I doing, self?" If we answer honestly, and act on those answers positively, then we will live better. And if we do that, we are making our faith stronger, and God will welcome us into His fold when our time comes.
Folks who look to a church or a parish or a community for examples have, clearly, lost their way. Jesus is the only example we need. Evidence of His example is the New Testament.
Belonging to a Religion, a Church, a Parish, a Community should be nothing more than a fellowship of like-minded folks rejoicing together in the ability God gave them to have faith that, even though we be sinners, we *can* do better if we try.
But faith is such a very personal thing. It is the ultimate in solitary thought, solitary action. A truly faithful person follows his own path, his own drummer, if you will. Following another person's example will quickly lead one from the right path, which is his own path. Those who go to services looking for examples, for 'heroes', are ... mmm ... not lost, but bewildered. The only example they need is found in the New Testament, in the Gospels and Epistles.
I've often heard that we should 'try to be like God'. It the past few years, I've come to realize that that is a self-defeating proposition. It is akin to standing in front of a dartboard in a pub, and deliberately and specifically throwing the dart into the backboard.
If God is my goal, why then should I aim only *near* Him. Why should anyone only try to be 'like' God? Is it not be better that he try to "be" God? But, you say, "We're all human and not perfect, thus can never be God. " Well, yes, that is quite true. But God is the perfect goal, the bullseye. It may be the only perfection we can attain in this life. Our aim may rarely be true, but our goal surely can. And if we merely *try* to achieve that goal every day, we will be building our faith, and building upon it.
As to Heaven and Hell, I'm not entirely sure that Hell - a state of being separate from God, really exists. Jesus died for our sins; He died to save us. I believe we have all been saved, that God welcomes all who pass from this life. It is thus written in Scripture. (Where, I don't know, but I've seen it many times; most likely in the New Testament. ) We can live any which way we want, yet we will all join God when we pass on.
If a state of being separate from God exists, then this life must be it. *This* reality must be Hell, because we are separated from God in the here and now. But so long as we have faith, are we truly separated from God?
N
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Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
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