You're definitely in the minority. Most people have better luck with their Dodge than they do with brands X and Y.
george
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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Would you or wouldn't you?
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You're definitely in the minority. Most people have better luck with their Dodge than they do with brands X and Y.
george
George that's what I hear from a lot of people so there has to be some truth to it but this is my second one and while it looks powerful on the dyno it doesn't have much power pulling a little trailer up the hills and it averages 12mpg highway or city and 10-11 with a 4000# 5th wheel. While my duramax got over 20mpg highway and 10. 5 towing my 15,000# toy hauler and rode like a cadillac
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The reason I bought my truck was for the motor. I was in the market for a 5th wheel and wanted the truck first. I have been a chevy owner my entire life. Salesman brought me out on the lot, drove a ford first, then the Dodge. There was no comparison between the two, the ford felt weak, did not impress me at all. Drove the Dodge and was very pleased with the power. 190K miles later the truck still runs as good as when I bought it. Overall I am pleased with the Dodge part, so far just routine maintenance and replacing ball joints, evaporator core, brakes,,hoses and one lift pump. The Fords ride better, the GM's seem spongy, the Cummin's is strictly business, its loud, stinky and runs...
if the need ever presented itself, i would not hesitate to own a dodge gasser again, had good luck with the one i had, as far as owning one with another diesel motor im not sure. dad ran ford gassers when i was younger and we got along ok with them, so i might have ended up in a ford had they had a cummins. my mom and sister in law both drive mopar vehicles so we have faith in dodge products.
Objective; but still all just personal opinion on my part
Actually George,
So far the responses to this thread do not support that statement. IMO, all 3 big US pickup manufacturers have substituted gadgetry for quality as the years have progressed. Sacrificed function for form.
Not all changes have been for the worse (I'll think of something better if I try hard enough). But certainly many of them have been change for change's sake alone. Others, like unit bearing hubs and balljoints, for instance, have been a downright deliberate step backwards for profit sake. Still others, like the CAD system, have sacrificed tremendous strength and reliability for 1/2 ton lazy-driver convenience while adding to the cost of production and maintenence/repair. All 3 manufacturers are guilty as charged of these follies, imo.
For the '96 model year, and all I consider here are 4x4's, I believe my Dodge is the second best pickup (not engine or drivetrain) made that year since I believe Ford was still utilizing an almost-real Dana 60 with live bearing hubs, lockouts, and true dana 60-sized axle shafts. They blew it with balljoints, though, but did use tried and true leaf springs and dual piston calipers. That beefier and more reliable frontend alone puts it head and shoulders above a same-year 4x4 dodge for strength and durability. GM isn't even in the running due to their pure-crap IFS alone.
All in all, I feel if Dodge had kept the super-tough real Dana 60 and simple front suspension of their 1st gen and simply put it under the new 2nd gen, they (and I) could lay claim to the all-time best all-round heavy-duty factory 4x4 pickup, imo. And as long as I'm wishing in one hand, they needed to keep the NP205 as well. It would still have weaknesses like the lousy plastic dash, brake and fuel lines, headlights, and fuel sender, but I could live with them as they are relatively minor one-time fixes.
As for creature comforts and looks, I have no preference among any brand anymore as they are not as important to me and all three manufacturers have over-emphasized those aspects to a fare-thee-well instead of focusing on what is truly important in a heavy-duty pickup.
I also believe Ford continues to understand better than GM or Dodge what a working truck needs to be and offers more beef with less emphasis on what I consider "1/2 ton frills" in their F450 and F550 lineup. Ford offers the new Dana Super 60 front axle with Dana 70 size components, for instance (still doggone balljoints, though...
) proving they understand what a diesel's truck platform should be. I personally consider all 1/2 ton pickups to be cars with a big open trunk. Like an suv. Built 90% for transportation and only 10% work at best. I have zero interest in them. Let the urban cowboys have them.
I'll also confess right now that early-98 is the last Cummins I would own. Unless it has wings and Mach 2+ capability, I despise vehicles that rely on computers. For that reason, I have not even ventured into a new-truck showroom for over a decade and cannot claim good knowledge of them. Show me a computer under the hood and I'm done looking and will double my money by folding it in half and putting it back in my pocket. And no overpriced gee-whizmo gizmo or styling package is going to entice me.
Actually George,
So far the responses to this thread do not support that statement. IMO, all 3 big US pickup manufacturers have substituted gadgetry for quality as the years have progressed. Sacrificed function for form.
Not all changes have been for the worse (I'll think of something better if I try hard enough). But certainly many of them have been change for change's sake alone. Others, like unit bearing hubs and balljoints, for instance, have been a downright deliberate step backwards for profit sake. Still others, like the CAD system, have sacrificed tremendous strength and reliability for 1/2 ton lazy-driver convenience while adding to the cost of production and maintenence/repair. All 3 manufacturers are guilty as charged of these follies, imo.
For the '96 model year, and all I consider here are 4x4's, I believe my Dodge is the second best pickup (not engine or drivetrain) made that year since I believe Ford was still utilizing an almost-real Dana 60 with live bearing hubs, lockouts, and true dana 60-sized axle shafts. They blew it with balljoints, though, but did use tried and true leaf springs and dual piston calipers. That beefier and more reliable frontend alone puts it head and shoulders above a same-year 4x4 dodge for strength and durability. GM isn't even in the running due to their pure-crap IFS alone.
All in all, I feel if Dodge had kept the super-tough real Dana 60 and simple front suspension of their 1st gen and simply put it under the new 2nd gen, they (and I) could lay claim to the all-time best all-round heavy-duty factory 4x4 pickup, imo. And as long as I'm wishing in one hand, they needed to keep the NP205 as well. It would still have weaknesses like the lousy plastic dash, brake and fuel lines, headlights, and fuel sender, but I could live with them as they are relatively minor one-time fixes.
As for creature comforts and looks, I have no preference among any brand anymore as they are not as important to me and all three manufacturers have over-emphasized those aspects to a fare-thee-well instead of focusing on what is truly important in a heavy-duty pickup.
I also believe Ford continues to understand better than GM or Dodge what a working truck needs to be and offers more beef with less emphasis on what I consider "1/2 ton frills" in their F450 and F550 lineup. Ford offers the new Dana Super 60 front axle with Dana 70 size components, for instance (still doggone balljoints, though...
) proving they understand what a diesel's truck platform should be. I personally consider all 1/2 ton pickups to be cars with a big open trunk. Like an suv. Built 90% for transportation and only 10% work at best. I have zero interest in them. Let the urban cowboys have them. I'll also confess right now that early-98 is the last Cummins I would own. Unless it has wings and Mach 2+ capability, I despise vehicles that rely on computers. For that reason, I have not even ventured into a new-truck showroom for over a decade and cannot claim good knowledge of them. Show me a computer under the hood and I'm done looking and will double my money by folding it in half and putting it back in my pocket. And no overpriced gee-whizmo gizmo or styling package is going to entice me.
That's quite an opinion SRath. What's so wrong with todays 24 valve in-line-six Cummins? What so wrong about computers? What's so wrong with 3rd and 4th generation Dodge HD trucks? 24 valve, computers and new generation HD trucks are here to stay and there's nothing wrong with them.
I purchased a new 95 3500 Dodge with the 12 valve Cummins, which was the best vehicle I had ever owned. I towed many miles, including a round trip to Alaska, in the 10 years I owned it. I didn't think anything could possibly be better. I'm here to say that my 05 Dodge 24 valve is better with twice the power and much more pay load than the 95.
The 95 was never in the shop and so far my 05 has never been in the shop. That speaks volumes for Dodge/Cummins. I don't believe brand X and brand Y can make that claim.
george
I purchased a new 95 3500 Dodge with the 12 valve Cummins, which was the best vehicle I had ever owned. I towed many miles, including a round trip to Alaska, in the 10 years I owned it. I didn't think anything could possibly be better. I'm here to say that my 05 Dodge 24 valve is better with twice the power and much more pay load than the 95.
The 95 was never in the shop and so far my 05 has never been in the shop. That speaks volumes for Dodge/Cummins. I don't believe brand X and brand Y can make that claim.
george
And I clearly said it was, George. Opinion. Mine alone. And I'm very happy for your run of good luck with your trucks, btw.
You may have missed where I said I believe my '96 Cummins Dodge lacks only the frontend (steering, suspension, axle) from being the best ever all-round pickup? But, like you said, that is quite an opinion and means little. Maybe it isn't as good as I think it is.
Your '95, almost identical to my '96, was, as you put it, "the best vehicle you have ever owned". If so, then why should you pay more money for a computerized version?
My dislike for computers is just that simple: they aren't needed on a Cummins and can be a source of additional problems on any vehicle and they definitely add to the expense.
You may have missed where I said I believe my '96 Cummins Dodge lacks only the frontend (steering, suspension, axle) from being the best ever all-round pickup? But, like you said, that is quite an opinion and means little. Maybe it isn't as good as I think it is.
Your '95, almost identical to my '96, was, as you put it, "the best vehicle you have ever owned". If so, then why should you pay more money for a computerized version?
My dislike for computers is just that simple: they aren't needed on a Cummins and can be a source of additional problems on any vehicle and they definitely add to the expense.
I'll start by saying that I love my Dodge and it has done everything I've ask of it. Just yesterday I got fuel and with 241,000 on the clock, I still pulled down 19. 3 mpg in winter. I can't complain one bit. I will say however that when I was in college and landscaping in the summer we worked the nuts off our F-Super Duty (forget what year it was, maybe a 1994?) with the non turbo 7. 3L and that truck never once flinched. That truck just flat out performed and that was my first experience with a diesel truck of any sorts. After getting out of college and working in the surveying profession and being on construction sites every single day I realized that the DOMINANT truck by every earthwork, pipe, grading and utility contractor out there was the Ford 250-350 (in various configurations) with the PSD. Very rarely did I see Dodge or Chevy. Now at the time Dodge had 12V Cummins and the 24V Cummins, Chevy was still on the 6. 5 Catpower I think (the duramax might have just arrived).
Either way I don't think it was by coincidence that all these heavy construction outfits were relying on Ford and the 7. 3L PSD for their fleets of vehicles. I truly believe that was one hell of a truck. Now when the 6. 0L hit the that may have changed. And things may be different now, but I still see Ford as the dominant vehicle in that arena.
I can honestly say I have never seen a Dodge/Cummins flatbed wrecker? I see Fords/Chevys and now Internationals and other mid level trucks. But back in the day when most wreckers were 1-ton chassis conversions, I never once saw a local outfit with Dodge based trucks?
Why the Dodge/Cummins platform wasn't shown the love, don't know? Chevy was hurt by their poor history of diesel power up to that point. Ford history with trucks has always been pretty solid.
Speaking to the computer controlled trucks, I love the simplicity of my 12V/5spd combo. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I've been stopped numerous times and asked if I'd sell it. My reply is no way, they don't make them like this truck anymore. Most times they smile, nod and agree. It's not as comfy on the inside or as sexy on the outside as the newer trucks, but it doesn't have a $500-$700 nut due on it every month either.
I love my Dodge/Cummins combo, but had a 7. 3L PSD F-250 been availabe at the time I was looking, I would not have hesitated. If I had to replace my current truck for some unforseen reason, I'd look for another well kept 12v, no doubt.
Either way I don't think it was by coincidence that all these heavy construction outfits were relying on Ford and the 7. 3L PSD for their fleets of vehicles. I truly believe that was one hell of a truck. Now when the 6. 0L hit the that may have changed. And things may be different now, but I still see Ford as the dominant vehicle in that arena.
I can honestly say I have never seen a Dodge/Cummins flatbed wrecker? I see Fords/Chevys and now Internationals and other mid level trucks. But back in the day when most wreckers were 1-ton chassis conversions, I never once saw a local outfit with Dodge based trucks?
Why the Dodge/Cummins platform wasn't shown the love, don't know? Chevy was hurt by their poor history of diesel power up to that point. Ford history with trucks has always been pretty solid.
Speaking to the computer controlled trucks, I love the simplicity of my 12V/5spd combo. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I've been stopped numerous times and asked if I'd sell it. My reply is no way, they don't make them like this truck anymore. Most times they smile, nod and agree. It's not as comfy on the inside or as sexy on the outside as the newer trucks, but it doesn't have a $500-$700 nut due on it every month either.
I love my Dodge/Cummins combo, but had a 7. 3L PSD F-250 been availabe at the time I was looking, I would not have hesitated. If I had to replace my current truck for some unforseen reason, I'd look for another well kept 12v, no doubt.
And I clearly said it was, George. Opinion. Mine alone. And I'm very happy for your run of good luck with your trucks, btw.
You may have missed where I said I believe my '96 Cummins Dodge lacks only the frontend (steering, suspension, axle) from being the best ever all-round pickup? But, like you said, that is quite an opinion and means little. Maybe it isn't as good as I think it is.
Your '95, almost identical to my '96, was, as you put it, "the best vehicle you have ever owned". If so, then why should you pay more money for a computerized version?
My dislike for computers is just that simple: they aren't needed on a Cummins and can be a source of additional problems on any vehicle and they definitely add to the expense.
Of a generation 3 or newer Dodge, I've yet to hear of an engine failure because of the computer or the fact that's it's a 24 valve. If there has been failures, there few and far between.
george
I hope more and more 12v owners start seeing it your way, George. I truly do.
Not only will they never suffer another breakdown, but it should also mean more obsolete old 12v's on the market for stubborn, unenlightened old curmudgeons like me to be stuck with.
BTW. I have no objection to 24 valves, the more the merrier if you like extra moving parts, but I still don't see what your computer does better than my "no computer".
I look at a Cummins computer like an appendix: no identifiable useful purpose and no predicting when it might fail and no way to prevent it, but generally reliably harmless for the life of the host. But every now and then, probably when you're at the farthest point from civilization and help if Murphy's Law holds true, it can fail and create a very serious problem and expense beyond what you already paid extra for it.
Why would I give up what I have and pay extra for that?
Not only will they never suffer another breakdown, but it should also mean more obsolete old 12v's on the market for stubborn, unenlightened old curmudgeons like me to be stuck with.
BTW. I have no objection to 24 valves, the more the merrier if you like extra moving parts, but I still don't see what your computer does better than my "no computer".
I look at a Cummins computer like an appendix: no identifiable useful purpose and no predicting when it might fail and no way to prevent it, but generally reliably harmless for the life of the host. But every now and then, probably when you're at the farthest point from civilization and help if Murphy's Law holds true, it can fail and create a very serious problem and expense beyond what you already paid extra for it.
Why would I give up what I have and pay extra for that?
I've been a fan of Dodge Rams since the 2nd Gen originally hit the lots. I'm still a fan of the design and looks. As with any vehicle, some people will put thousands of trouble free miles on their vehicles while others will have problems every step of the way.
The same way Grizzly has had zero issues with his Rams, I know of several people who have had zero issues with their Furd 6-Leaker. And yes, a majority of them tow heavy. There are a lot of people on this board who have had zero issues and a lot who have had lots of issues. It's just the nature of the automotive business. No two are completely identical in terms of performance.
Having said that, since I would never personally purchase a gas truck, I would not buy a Dodge if it did not have the Cummins. If Furd or Chevy had a Cummins, I would go that route.
The Cummins is the selling point for me, then the Dodge.
I bought my Ram used and have had some problems. After tackling that dastardly heater core, I must say that who ever designed it needs to be punished!
The same way Grizzly has had zero issues with his Rams, I know of several people who have had zero issues with their Furd 6-Leaker. And yes, a majority of them tow heavy. There are a lot of people on this board who have had zero issues and a lot who have had lots of issues. It's just the nature of the automotive business. No two are completely identical in terms of performance.
Having said that, since I would never personally purchase a gas truck, I would not buy a Dodge if it did not have the Cummins. If Furd or Chevy had a Cummins, I would go that route.
The Cummins is the selling point for me, then the Dodge.
I bought my Ram used and have had some problems. After tackling that dastardly heater core, I must say that who ever designed it needs to be punished!
The CTD is the only reason I looked into Dodge. I've come to love my Dodge and have yet to have any real problems with the Dodge part, other than the paint falling off.
I'm not as aged as many members here, yet I've owned many GM's and if I couldn't have a Cummins I'd probably still be driving a Vortec GM with a solid front axle swap and a six speed manual transmission.
V8 diesel's do not interest me at all as I drive semis for a living and know the reliability of the inline configuration. I'm also not going to get into a droF (driver returns on Foot) anytime soon. For me Dodge means: Don't Own Dodge Gas Engines.
I'm not as aged as many members here, yet I've owned many GM's and if I couldn't have a Cummins I'd probably still be driving a Vortec GM with a solid front axle swap and a six speed manual transmission.
V8 diesel's do not interest me at all as I drive semis for a living and know the reliability of the inline configuration. I'm also not going to get into a droF (driver returns on Foot) anytime soon. For me Dodge means: Don't Own Dodge Gas Engines.
It's all in the numbers. What is the percentage of people with no problems with a Dodge/ Cummins compared to Ford/PS and GM/Duramax. I don't know what those numbers are, but I'm willing to bet that Dodge/Cummins has a far better reliability rate than the other two brands combined.
george
I think a lot of them are dependent upon how the individual treats their vehicle. My brother-in-law has a 7. 3 Furd and runs it into the ground. The engine needs a HPOP and glow plugs. It had a fuel leak forever.
Then of course there just lemons in play as well.
I have owned 4 24 valve CTD trucks and 1 12 valve CTD truck.
I have also owned 4 1500 dodge ram trucks and the only one
I did not like was the 02 1500 ram(first year of that new body style. ) i think the 4. 7 was a little weak and the 4 door was nice but I really prefer the quad cab. the true 4 door was nicer for the family but the quad is as much like a reg cab with a but of extra room.
I have also owned 4 1500 dodge ram trucks and the only one
I did not like was the 02 1500 ram(first year of that new body style. ) i think the 4. 7 was a little weak and the 4 door was nice but I really prefer the quad cab. the true 4 door was nicer for the family but the quad is as much like a reg cab with a but of extra room.
I was a Ford Guy untill Dodge put the Cummins in. If the Cummins was in a Chevy I be driving that!
Tim
Tim
I have always owned gas trucks until I purchased my current Dodge almost 5 yrs ago. I love the Cummins and I have to admit that I have never owned a more powerful truck... ... a powerful truck that can still render nearly 20mpg! BUT, the Dodge part of my truck has had every single problem that other members complain about on this site. I absolutely hate the auto transmission! That original transmission was the mushiest thing I have ever driven and whatever power the Cummins made was simply wasted in the over-revving. My Goerend has rectified that failure and I feel confident that my truck can and will tow anything that its hooked to.
I'm like Scott... ... give me a mid to late 70's GM 1 ton with a Cummins conversion and a HD 6spd transmission with the 205 X-case and I'm good. In my college days I abused that old 78' I had and it was indestructible! A GM 14bolt will live behind any truck engine, diesel or gas! I never use A/C unless my frail girlfriend get's into the truck so I don't need creature-comforts. I have grown accustomed to using power-windows and locks but all that other crap you can have... ... ..... give me a work-truck option please! As for the front-end... ... I don't like it but the other brands suffer just as much with similar complaints. I have upgraded the steering so that is good for now.
So to answer the question. I'm not a Dodge fan, I'm a Cummins fan! If I were to buy another 2nd gen truck, I would know what to expect and just upgrade accordingly. And IF I was interested in buying new, I would choose Dodge now right away and without regret. I don't like the fuel economy and emmisions crap on any of the new trucks... ... . just like I stayed away from emmisions ***** in the 80's when gas engines were compromised with Govt. imposed crap!
Alan
I'm like Scott... ... give me a mid to late 70's GM 1 ton with a Cummins conversion and a HD 6spd transmission with the 205 X-case and I'm good. In my college days I abused that old 78' I had and it was indestructible! A GM 14bolt will live behind any truck engine, diesel or gas! I never use A/C unless my frail girlfriend get's into the truck so I don't need creature-comforts. I have grown accustomed to using power-windows and locks but all that other crap you can have... ... ..... give me a work-truck option please! As for the front-end... ... I don't like it but the other brands suffer just as much with similar complaints. I have upgraded the steering so that is good for now.
So to answer the question. I'm not a Dodge fan, I'm a Cummins fan! If I were to buy another 2nd gen truck, I would know what to expect and just upgrade accordingly. And IF I was interested in buying new, I would choose Dodge now right away and without regret. I don't like the fuel economy and emmisions crap on any of the new trucks... ... . just like I stayed away from emmisions ***** in the 80's when gas engines were compromised with Govt. imposed crap!
Alan
I have always owned gas trucks until I purchased my current Dodge almost 5 yrs ago. I love the Cummins and I have to admit that I have never owned a more powerful truck... ... a powerful truck that can still render nearly 20mpg! BUT, the Dodge part of my truck has had every single problem that other members complain about on this site. I absolutely hate the auto transmission! That original transmission was the mushiest thing I have ever driven and whatever power the Cummins made was simply wasted in the over-revving. My Goerend has rectified that failure and I feel confident that my truck can and will tow anything that its hooked to.
I'm like Scott... ... give me a mid to late 70's GM 1 ton with a Cummins conversion and a HD 6spd transmission with the 205 X-case and I'm good. In my college days I abused that old 78' I had and it was indestructible! A GM 14bolt will live behind any truck engine, diesel or gas! I never use A/C unless my frail girlfriend get's into the truck so I don't need creature-comforts. I have grown accustomed to using power-windows and locks but all that other crap you can have... ... ..... give me a work-truck option please! As for the front-end... ... I don't like it but the other brands suffer just as much with similar complaints. I have upgraded the steering so that is good for now.
So to answer the question. I'm not a Dodge fan, I'm a Cummins fan! If I were to buy another 2nd gen truck, I would know what to expect and just upgrade accordingly. And IF I was interested in buying new, I would choose Dodge now right away and without regret. I don't like the fuel economy and emmisions crap on any of the new trucks... ... . just like I stayed away from emmisions ***** in the 80's when gas engines were compromised with Govt. imposed crap!
Alan
I'm like Scott... ... give me a mid to late 70's GM 1 ton with a Cummins conversion and a HD 6spd transmission with the 205 X-case and I'm good. In my college days I abused that old 78' I had and it was indestructible! A GM 14bolt will live behind any truck engine, diesel or gas! I never use A/C unless my frail girlfriend get's into the truck so I don't need creature-comforts. I have grown accustomed to using power-windows and locks but all that other crap you can have... ... ..... give me a work-truck option please! As for the front-end... ... I don't like it but the other brands suffer just as much with similar complaints. I have upgraded the steering so that is good for now.
So to answer the question. I'm not a Dodge fan, I'm a Cummins fan! If I were to buy another 2nd gen truck, I would know what to expect and just upgrade accordingly. And IF I was interested in buying new, I would choose Dodge now right away and without regret. I don't like the fuel economy and emmisions crap on any of the new trucks... ... . just like I stayed away from emmisions ***** in the 80's when gas engines were compromised with Govt. imposed crap!
Alan
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