Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

DBM,

Want to try this?
Strong workbench and vise. At least a piece of threaded rod 1/2” or bigger, nuts and several washers, larger and enough to clamp against the forged splined hub and nothing else. Tighten the top nut and put this threaded rod in the vise.
The objective is that the hub only is clamped unable to rotate. Nothing else is clamped.

Now put leather gloves on. Grip the facings left and right and try to twist the disc with the hub unable to rotate.

Then care to repeat this with an OE style disc.

See how far you can rotate the disc relative to the hub and report your findings.

Gary

Just got a reply back from SouthBend after emailing them pictures here is their response

"If you still have the clutch kit there put the flywheel on the bench and bolt the pressure plate to the flywheel with the disc in place, if you have a press set the whole clutch in the press set up a scale system with a tape measurer and with an old throw out bearing in between the press ram and the fingers of the pressure plate, run the ram down a half of inch and see if the disc will move from side to side with your fingers. This is how we test them when they come in as a whole unit."

I don't have a vice, but I have a press, will this test be conclusive enough?

 

[GCroyle]

DBM,

Two different tests being discussed here.

Plate lift, FW, disc and cover bolted together just like normal, criss cross tightening etc.

Bearing travel, 1/2" No way does the OE NV5600 system provide 1/2" release bearing travel. I can get exact spec but more like .400" is in the ball park. Plate lift might be more on the order of .045" but that's from memory not a print.

No it's not just disc release it's plate lift uniformity, parallel to the FW moving away and back to the disc and FW. My last clutch I installed in my truck that one had a plate lift that looked like ONE trace on the graph but the trace is 3 traces that virtually overlapped each other, no stragglers or leaders all for one and one for all.

To replicate this at home, a hyd press is nice but you can create a release system with a section of threaded rod again thru the FW back thru the bearing. And to measure plate lift if your really careful a caliper might get you some semi accurate plate lift data. Measure from the same spot on each of the four strap locations from the exposed machined pressure plate casting. Individual dial indicators yup four of them would be primo for this home test.

Who ever you're dealing with ask if they have a Shepard-Thomson pressure plate tester. If they ask what's that? Good luck. That was the rebuilders gotta have one pressure plate test machine. Bearing travel, plate lift and clampload all in one.

I described a torsion damper hand inspection that I could do in my home garage shop. That test is only for concerns about the noise complaint.

Gary

 

[Darkbloodmon]

DBM,

Two different tests being discussed here.

Plate lift, FW, disc and cover bolted together just like normal, criss cross tightening etc.

Bearing travel, 1/2" No way does the OE NV5600 system provide 1/2" release bearing travel. I can get exact spec but more like .400" is in the ball park. Plate lift might be more on the order of .045" but that's from memory not a print.

No it's not just disc release it's plate lift uniformity, parallel to the FW moving away and back to the disc and FW. My last clutch I installed in my truck that one had a plate lift that looked like ONE trace on the graph but the trace is 3 traces that virtually overlapped each other, no stragglers or leaders all for one and one for all.

To replicate this at home, a hyd press is nice but you can create a release system with a section of threaded rod again thru the FW back thru the bearing. And to measure plate lift if your really careful a caliper might get you some semi accurate plate lift data. Measure from the same spot on each of the four strap locations from the exposed machined pressure plate casting. Individual dial indicators yup four of them would be primo for this home test.

Who ever you're dealing with ask if they have a Shepard-Thomson pressure plate tester. If they ask what's that? Good luck. That was the rebuilders gotta have one pressure plate test machine. Bearing travel, plate lift and clampload all in one.

I described a torsion damper hand inspection that I could do in my home garage shop. That test is only for concerns about the noise complaint.

Gary

I'll just have to let them test it then. I've documented this process and have taken more than enough pictures for warranty purposes on this "simple" clutch job, I'll ask if they have that tester. I need to be 100% sure what the problem is before putting this transmission back in. I've yet to turn it over in all gears, I'll probably get to that today.

SouthBend replied back said my flywheel was shot and not worth cutting and that the video I took of the grinding noise sounds like a dual disk clutch even though its a single. They were looking to warpage of the disc as a potential cause from pictures and the video alone.

Following Southbend's recommended test, 1/2" of ram travel and I was able to move the disc side to side, not 100% it had some drag, another 1/4" of ram travel and the disc had little to no drag, I could spin it easily.


The customer service between SouthBend and Phoenix Friction is leaning in favor towards SBC. The representative I've been talking to is very responsive with emails. PF said I'd have an RMA request for the return of the clutch kit in my inbox yesterday before the days end and I still don't have it. I understand the whole not liable for downtime and labor spiel, but a sense of urgency would be appreciated when it's paperwork or sending out email on their end. My truck is down, and your product is in question. I'd assume you'd want to investigate and clear up the situation sooner than later.

On a side note the flywheel came off very nicely this time, all the bolts looked good, no threads pulled, no tight or weird spots.

 

[Tuesdak]

I also had a nightmare with a NV5600 clutch. When I had to re-replace my SBC over a missing dowel pin on the bellhousing the first shop overlooked ... South Bend Clutch helped me out with a discount even though it wasn't their fault. No one had any idea why the clutch pedal had a vibration. Trans was moving around without the dowel and wearing the disc hub in the disc...

I would look at their 475 HP single disc. Otherwise your power goals may take a dual. The HD towing clutch has a wider facing and requires a heavier pressure plate spring. I was able to overpower slip the HD clutch, but, when I did the clutch I wasn't planning on the BOMB upgrades I did. Then the injectors and turbo needed replacement and warmed it up from there. At least the clutch is a cheaper "fuse" in the powertrain.

 

[BigPapa]

SBC's customer service is top notch. I've run and sold many SBC clutches and have never been disappointed in Peter and his people. I've had similar experiences to Tuesdak, they've provided help when problems were not their fault.

 

[Tuesdak]

I believe Peter is fully retired now. The HD clutch was smooth so I really liked it once all the problems were solved on the pickup. The exotic frictions concern me on the trade off and in fact SBC doesn't offer some harsh frictions anymore.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I would look at their 475 HP single disc. Otherwise your power goals may take a dual.

I really didn't want to do a dual if I didn't need to. I'm awaiting a reply back from ThoroughBred Diesel for an estimation of my numbers from air and fuel add ons and custom tuning.

One of the reasons why PF was so attractive was their diversity of products for different applications and power levels. I wanted something long lasting with a higher holding capacity and smooth engagement. If SBC says my single disc that's grinding sounds like a dual I don't want a dual. I'd like to make it work with them but this issue is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth the way its being handled. I'll call them tomorrow, giving them a full business day to get an email out to me so I can ship this off...

 

[BigPapa]

When I first heard the video I, too, thought it sounded like a multi-plate pulling clutch. They only sound that way when disengaged.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Did you spin the transmission over in 5th and listen for noise?

Stuck the shifter back in and turned it over in all the gears. No issues or abnormal sounds.

To those at the beginning of this long... thread who voted in favor of keeping all components under one roof of a manufacturer. The stars might be aligning in your wisdom.

Got the RMA request email and form to ship it back, and PF so thoroughly attached their limited warranty and return information to that same email. In which it states in the limited warranty:

"There shall be no obligation under this limited warranty unless the Kit or Upgrade Kit is returned with all original components (including pressure plate assembly, disc assembly, release bearing, and pilot bearing/bushing)."

Problem being not completely that I used different parts but that I think I threw away the supplied "inferior" parts i.e. the brass pilot bushing and no name clutch release bearing after installing the transmission the first time. I've asked for an exception given how well I've documented the installation and parts used; but we'll see if they want to nit pick the fine print on this issue not related to either of the components thrown away and replaced.

The cherry on top being that in accordance to the return policy I have to package and ship a 43lb kit on my own dime and pray that it makes in there in once piece undamaged so they can actually look it over.

I'll have to double check my work space.

 

[bcbender]

Well good luck, but I've had a lot of good will and "exceptions" allowed by using a smile and kind words with many a supplier when trying to find an amicable resolution.

FWIW, my South Bend complete single disk system was turn key and never had any problems with it.

 

[GCroyle]

Please pass some salt and pepper. I went from memory rather than checking first.

I got the scoop on bearing travel for the NV5600 clutch release bearing travel.

.550” is more like it. The G56 has less bearing travel but we’re not dealing with those.

I left almost two years ago and practice every day trying hard to forget the daily crap.

My apologies for my error.

Gary

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Please pass some salt and pepper. I went from memory rather than checking first.

I got the scoop on bearing travel for the NV5600 clutch release bearing travel.

.550” is more like it. The G56 has less bearing travel but we’re not dealing with those.

I left almost two years ago and practice every day trying hard to forget the daily crap.

My apologies for my error.

Gary

No worries, Clutch is out of my hands now. Called Phoenix Friction and they said they would still accept it and inspect it. Should be there by Saturday as long as UPS can restrain the urge to destroy it in transit.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

PF received the clutch and pressure plate today. Won't be able to get to it until Thursday the latest as I was told. On the assumption that they find something wrong I'm considering just taking a credit and putting it towards a SouthBendClutch kit...

Even if I get a new one I'd still have to source a new flywheel, SBC said mine was scrap after looking at the damage, less than two miles and 350 bones smoked, damages not covered according to PF's limited warranty. I doubt I could appeal to this, CSR seemed "defeated" in the sense that they don't get many calls like this and want to move on without incident. I myself am at that point in just wanting to finish this and get back on the road... nearing two and a half months of down time.

Anyone have any advice or experience with SBC's dual disks? My Tuner is recommending SBC's Dual disk (SDD3250-6) Org/Cer after reviewing my air and fuel additions, he is estimating 550/900+ after tuning. Can anyone speak to the drivability of their dual disks?

I've seen a few reviews of the noise when pushing the clutch in but that's the opposite of my issue and least of my concerns in comparison. If the clutch is in I'm shifting anyways and the engine is making noise.

 

[BigPapa]

I suggest you call SBC and talk to them about your truck, how you use it, and what your plans are. They will not steer you wrong.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I suggest you call SBC and talk to them about your truck, how you use it, and what your plans are. They will not steer you wrong.

I'll get in contact with them tomorrow then, would traction bars help? I've been sitting on a set waiting to be burned on once i'm back on the road.

 

[BigPapa]

Would they help what?

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Would they help what?

The axle hop from going into reverse or backing trailers when trying to slip the clutch.

 

[BigPapa]

The best thing for that would be working out a 2WD Low if it can be done on the 3rd Gen. I’m not that familiar with the 3rd Gen AAM setup.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

The best thing for that would be working out a 2WD Low if it can be done on the 3rd Gen. I’m not that familiar with the 3rd Gen AAM setup.

Gotcha, I'll run it by SBC tomorrow and see what they recommend.

 

[Tuesdak]

The axle hop from going into reverse or backing trailers when trying to slip the clutch.

On my 2003 2WD with the 5th wheel RV on it mine would hop so bad in reverse it would leave skid marks from the rear tires on pavement. I let the clutch completely out and that's when we started leaving rubber. Going forward was fine. The ladder bars fixed the reverse hop to where I wasn't concerned about breaking something.