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Bad injectors at 95K miles... is this normal?

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Oil Leak help please

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UPDATED on post #29, but still not running right.

2005 3500/ SRW as listed in signature. Completely stock from the factory other than 285 tires.

Symptom: engine sounds as if there is a slight "knock. " It sounds almost like a very slight rod knock, but heavy acceleration does not increase the intensity.

Fuel mileage seem OK, perhaps slightly lower, but have been using a camper and stepped up to 285 tires so any lower economy I can attribute to those factors.

Power seems OK to, but a symptom I notice is a sensation of less power on "shutdown"... let me try to explain: I used to feel as if the interruption of torque when shutting off the engine would cause the whole truck to shake. It seemed as if trying to reign in all that torque would transfer throughout the entire vehicle. (maybe worn engine/ transmission mounts are not transferring the torque to the body/ frame like new tight mounts)... but it seems that even taking that into account the the engine will "compliantly" shut off instead of fighting to "stay running" like it used to ... . not sure if that description makes any sense of what I am trying to describe. But have noticed this symptom since the condition of the "knock" started some 25-30K ago.

Oil changed every 5-6K miles with FF & AF every other oil change. Stanadyne All-Season used regularly in the winter as an-anti gel, block heater regularly plugged in when 30^ or below. Professional injection cleaning service and valve adjust performed around 85K miles.

Black smoke pours out upon acceleration, but I attribute that to living and driving regularly AT 9,000+ altitude.

First 2 dealers said this is all normal. Current dealer says normal but worn injectors are the cause for my complaints but they cannot replace them under warranty since no code or evidence of defective parts.

I have been bringing this issue to the to the dealers' for close to 30K miles over the course of 2 years (with work orders to prove it. ) Corporate Chrysler has washed their hands of this (Believe me, I flew it up the corporate chain for over 6 months now... I am not too please with their decision of not replacing them at this low mileage. ) ... or am I being unreasonable??

CP3 and turbo were replaced at around 80K-ish miles in the midst of all this complaining, but it did not alleviate this knocking sound. Among the 3 dealers of whom I have taken this to have said it is "normal. " The last one actually pointing to the actual injectors being the cause of my complaint.

Is the need to replace injectors at this low mileage normal? The dealer says that this "knocking" that I feel and hear can be normal for this mileage and that it will not cause damage.

Opinions???
 
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I haven't read anything that convinces me you have one or more bad injectors. A mild knocking sound is normal from some injectors.

Have a skilled dealer tech run a cylinder contribution test on their Dodge-Cummins computer. That test will determine if an injector is actually bad. Insist on a copy of the results.
 
May not be the whole injector bad but just a bad tip. Possibly from wear or even carbon. Have you tried the SeaFoam in the filter and let sit for a day or so? Do you normally run any additives? How often do you really work the truck?

As far as testing, cylinder contribution test, injector kill test, and a return flow test may or may not tell you something. Only thing you can do is try the diagnostics to see what it reveals.
 
Considering Sea-Foam is mostly solvent including alcohol, I wouldn't run it in that strong of a concentration. You could scar and damage the HP pump and injector internals.
 
At one time Chrysler was working on a fuel tSB-hasn't happened yet but it was going to recommend crc diesel treatment-I was told
 
SeaFoam ingredients:



40-60%: Pale Oil (A petroleum lubricating or process oil refined until its color, measured by transmitted light, is straw to pale yellow. )



25-35%: Naphtha (Naptha is a common name for the industrial solvent Petroleum Ether. )



10-20%: IPA (isopropyl alcohol)





Not quite mostly solvent and alcohol, though a fairly high concentration. Definitely not for constant use but with its lube oil mix and the existing diesel fuel should not be a problem in the minimal time it is in a running system. Not a lot worse than running #1 diesel and anti-gel for months on end.



What do you think the Injection Cleaning Services the dealers push are? One of the various injectgor system cleaners is all it is. Just depends on what they detemrine to use.
 
from a Cummins "cheif technical officer"
Performance and Durability Results
A variety of engines have been tested with E diesel, including a Cummins ISB used in the
Dodge Ram pick-up. A dyno endurance test of that engine with a 15% ethanol blend
experience fuel system problems. The fuel pump, a Robert Bosch VP44, failed an internal
timing sensor (IAT) due to delamination of the foil caused by the presence of alcohol. Bosch®
has stated that they do not approve the use of ethanol blends in any of their fuel systems,
including the VP44 and the new Common Rail equipment. Increased injector wear was also
noticed during the above test. Results of tests with a 10% ethanol blend showed an 8% power
loss and a 5% increase in fuel consumption.
 
SeaFoam ingredients:
25-35%: Naphtha (Naptha is a common name for the industrial solvent Petroleum Ether. )
10-20%: IPA (isopropyl alcohol)
Not quite mostly solvent and alcohol, though a fairly high concentration.

Which is exactly why one should not introduce these ingredients into one's Cummins.

At one time Chrysler was working on a fuel tSB-hasn't happened yet but it was going to recommend crc diesel treatment-I was told

That's interesting. Do you know how long ago that rumor popped up? Further, was it for the 5. 9 and/or the 6. 7?

Considering Sea-Foam is mostly solvent including alcohol, I wouldn't run it in that strong of a concentration. You could scar and damage the HP pump and injector internals.

AGREED.

Gabe
 
That's interesting. Do you know how long ago that rumor popped up? Further, was it for the 5. 9 and/or the 6. 7?



AGREED.

Gabe
6. 7
It was not a rumour... ..... I saw a pre release version. Who knows why it did not happen. Tsb's have to be approved by all the dept's before being released. Legal,emissions etc
 
6. 7
It was not a rumour... ..... I saw a pre release version. Who knows why it did not happen. Tsb's have to be approved by all the dept's before being released. Legal,emissions etc

Wild. I guess it didn't pass someone's "smell" test or I suppose we would have seen the TSB by now.

GCP
 
At one time Chrysler was working on a fuel tSB-hasn't happened yet but it was going to recommend crc diesel treatment-I was told
Bob4x4, with my 5. 9, Frahm Dodge would always sell me a one time additive (don't know name) that was added to the fuel filter when they installed the new filter. I believe they did the same for my my C&C on its first fuel filter change. Do you know what that additive might be and the proper amount used? Power Service has a blend for the newer Diesels, (07 and later) I used it when in Denver with one tank due to frigid temps. What is your recommendation when in frigid temps? The reason it was only done one time from Frahm Dodge, is because I'm still only on the third filter change with 43K miles. Ontario Dodge did the second and I don't remember if they did the same treatment that Frahm Dodge did. (getting old)
 
I am guessing it came from what ever chemical company they used for all their automotive chems. I started doing that when I was running a fleet shop. Our rigs averaged 10k per month. we never had any fuel related failure in the 8 1/2 years I was there. Although I did have to make a road call to remove a piece of oak 1/4 round moulding from the primary fuel filter one of our drivers dropped in his tank while checking his fuel level.
 
:-laf
Which is exactly why one should not introduce these ingredients into one's Cummins.



Nice. Failing to referencing the line that shows the bulk of the product is lubricant doesn't negate the fact it is there. As the compostion clearly shows 50% or more is lubricant the negative perception is baffling to say the least.



Consider: the SeaFoam is mixed with existing diesel in the system and the filling of the filter housing, and, the additive is not in the system more than a couple minutes the chances are that it will do any more damage than the rather crappy diesel we have to put up with are realtively low. The cleaning properties far outweight the unproven potential for damage when used on an infrequent basis. The fact remains it is viable option and has no proven record of damage.



Pretty much the same with all the cleaning addtives and solutions on the market and are used by many mechanics and shops. Then again, it wasn't that long ago the masses swore the ISB 5. 9 did not have EGR.
 
For what it is worth, You state that you live at 9000 ft. I know that my '07,5. 9 is noisier at high altitude. I agree on the injector isolation test.
 
:-laf

Nice. Failing to referencing the line that shows the bulk of the product is lubricant doesn't negate the fact it is there. As the compostion clearly shows 50% or more is lubricant the negative perception is baffling to say the least.

Consider: the SeaFoam is mixed with existing diesel in the system and the filling of the filter housing, and, the additive is not in the system more than a couple minutes the chances are that it will do any more damage than the rather crappy diesel we have to put up with are realtively low.

No confrontation or argument intended. I was simply highlighting the two potentially harmful ingredients. If after researching a given product it seems like a good idea, by all means go for it. However, there are products that claim to do the same job, sans the suspect ingredients.

As a side note: The real crime is the inconsistent and unreliable sources of diesel being sold to us at various service stations.

GCP
 
However, there are products that claim to do the same job, sans the suspect ingredients.

Not sans those ingredients, but, a formulation that has the same consistency. Take a look at any of them and they will have pale oil and varying percentages highly refined hydorcabon compounds. Naptha, napthalene, soddard solvent, or a version of the previous is a commonality. What does differ is the isopropyl alcohol or other hydrocarbon fluid that is close enough in consistency. Alcohol is a staple in a lot of popular additives and Diesel 911 like products because of its abillity to bind to water. I am pretty sure if all these products were killing engines there would be a hue and cry about it.

MMO is about as popular an addtive as there is out there and it is a stoddard solvent base. Just because the label says alcohol or some type of solvent does not automatically mean it is bad for the fuel system. You have to look at the other ingredients and judge how it will mix with diesel. You cna run some pretty crappy fuel with enough lubricatin properties to it.

All I can tell you is MMO and SeaFoam work as advertised with no known side issues in my experience. Have used it on 12V, 24V, and CR's on an as needed basis with no issues. If it was going to kill the CP-3 and injectors they would have already been dead in the last 100k as I have periodically tried to keep the carbon off the tips and deposits out of the injectors. Thats hard fact not just opinion.
 
I can't comment on Seafoam, but Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) has been used for years, and my first use of it was in 1987 in a 2300cc POS Ford Courier. Not only did it clean a gummed up carburetor but when introduced in the oil after reading it can be used in the oil, it quieted the hydraulic lifters that seemed to be sticking. I have used this product since then and have had no ill effects that I can tell in all those years.



Now that I have a DPF chocking the exhaust on my C&C, I'm hesitant in using it, they do state in the Q&A link of their website that it does NOT meet the Federal law on low sulfur content for MY07 and newer. I'm afraid of prolonged use it will damage the DPF, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I thought the injectors were needing tender loving care.



If MMO damaged fuel injector pumps and CR systems the large fleets would have had issues and would discontinue its use.
 
I spent a summer in Oregon where I worked in My Gramps Garage (Flying A) so it was awhile ago. I brought my trail bike to ride in the woods on the week-ends,the engine was fresh. My Gramps was a firm beleiver of MMO in small emgines,chain saws yard tractors whatever. So in the bikes fuel it went. When I got back home I tore it down for a routine freshen up-the cylinder was totaly polished,no abnormal amount of wear just completely smooth. A light hone,new piston and rings good to go. Cylinder scoring was very comom on the 2 strokes
 
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