Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Better towing turbo-Super B or Phat Shaft 62

[AH64ID]

AH64ID,



Here is the degree symbol if you want to use it °

Thanks. .



It's funny, I take the time to get the ± sign, but always use * for deg...

 

[cerberusiam]

AH64ID,



Here is the degree symbol if you want to use it °

You have to type out the key combination or it just shows the symbol.



Alt + 248 (keypad)

 

[seafish]

WOW... learn something new everyday-- I always wondered why my keyboard didn't have a degrees sign, so I also used the asterisk... I thought I was being smart, but look what you guys showed me what to do...



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I can swear in a whole new language too !! :-laf

 

[AH64ID]

Doh... no keypad on the laptop!

I had forgotten all about ASCII language...

 

[cerberusiam]

Doh... no keypad on the laptop!



I had forgotten all about ASCII language...

Cheap laptop, mine has one. :-laf





You should have an FN key that will allow the use of the key pad on the main keyboard. The one that gets turned on by mistake and you can't figure out why none of your passwords work. #@$%!

 

[AH64ID]

Just old... . it's not for lack of room it has a 17" monitor, but I got it as a refurb in 2005. . still works just fine for my needs thou.

It does, but thats more of a PITA than pressing *

 

[PC12Driver]

Much to PC12's surprise, but not anyone else, this is an amazing tow turbo.

Thanks for the personal attention. However, since my point all along was that the smaller of the three Garrett offerings would be better suited for towing, not that the middle one wouldn't work for towing, there really isn't much for me to be surprised about in your findings. I don't think I ever stated that I didn't think it would work as a towing turbo, just that the Stage 1 would work better. I still maintain that if the Stage 2 is as good as you say it is, then the Stage 1 would make an outstanding towing turbo for the slightly modified crowd.

There really isn't any getting under it, at least not with smart driving (and no, unlike what your thinking right now I'm not talking about shifting at 3K rpms to keep the upshift rpms high)...

Sounds like you can get under it though. Above what RPM do moderate throttle changes not result in a cloud of smoke?



Also, how much effect do you suppose your cam had on your results? Seems like getting away from the high drive pressure to charge pressure ratio from the tiny 9cm housing on the HE351 would really complement the increased overlap from the aftermarket cam. Do you think your results might be a bit more dramatic than the stock-cam crowd? For example, my cam gave me 100-200 rpm of my powerband back with my larger turbos.

PC12Driver: Hopefully that's enough for you to be satisfied, but somehow I doubt it.



I'm both a fan of and a maintenance test pilot for the Apache.

It's pretty clear from these and other comments that you took this discussion personally, and I think any of your subjective findings should be interpreted with that in mind. And like the "surprised" thing, there really isn't much for me to be "satisfied" over, since, again, none of your findings have anything to do with my underlying point.



And the Apache question was to see if you had experience flying turbines, with the hope of working in some parallels to turbo physics into the discussion. But that's a moot point now, since your emotional attachment to this has killed any interest I had in this thread.



I'm glad your turbo works for your application. It's good to see that internet hype does work out occasionally.

 

[AH64ID]

To the OP. . you get it installed yet?

Thanks for the personal attention. However, since my point all along was that the smaller of the three Garrett offerings would be better suited for towing, not that the middle one wouldn't work for towing, there really isn't much for me to be surprised about in your findings. I don't think I ever stated that I didn't think it would work as a towing turbo, just that the Stage 1 would work better. I still maintain that if the Stage 2 is as good as you say it is, then the Stage 1 would make an outstanding towing turbo for the slightly modified crowd.

The stage 1 may work on a stock truck, but again it has lower flow than the stock turbo, so it may work better in some instances and worse in others. . just like any turbo mod. On anything that is modded I would run the Stage 2, as would every Garrett dealer I have talked to. The Stage 2 is the work turbo, and the Stage 3 is the play turbo, the Stage 1 isn't used.

You are simply looking at the size of the wheel, and nothing else.

Also looking at the hp ratings of 350 on the stage 1, look at the tq its only 600, a ratio that suggests it's not well suited in the mid range, where the stage 2 is 450/1000. From those numbers the stage 2 provides more power capabilities in the low-mid range.

The MAP for the Stage 1 only shows a PR of 3. 5 on its non Stage 1 MAP, but for the Stage 1 it grows to 4. 2? Seems a little odd to me, where the Stage 2 shows 4. 1 vs 4. 3, a little closer which would seem more accurate.

The MAP for the HX35 also shows a PR of slightly over 4. 0:1. . so depending on how you want to read the Stage 1 MAP's you can see where the Stage 1 has lower flow on both, and possibly a lower PR. The only gain would be the WG setting on a stock turbo vs a Stage 1, but if you already have a modified stock turbo the Stage 1 won't be as efficient. I saw a 50% drop in IAT's at cruise speeds, and a 45% drop pulling grades due to the increased efficiency of the Stage 2 wheel.

Again, it may work on a 100% stock truck, but I don't think you will get near the benefits on a truck that has any mods. It may work, but probably not as well.

Sounds like you can get under it though. Above what RPM do moderate throttle changes not result in a cloud of smoke?

Idle.

It never makes a cloud, it hazes a little below about 1200 if you make a sudden change, but normal acceleration see's little to no smoke, a HUGE reduction from the stock setup. Slow cruising at 1200-1300 rpms has maybe 10% the smoke that the stock turbo did. The lower restriction exhaust housing and BB setup really allow for fast increases in turbine rpm. . and you have to love that it spins for about 5 seconds at shutdown. . just show's how little resistance BB's have compared to journal bearings.

Also, how much effect do you suppose your cam had on your results? Seems like getting away from the high drive pressure to charge pressure ratio from the tiny 9cm housing on the HE351 would really complement the increased overlap from the aftermarket cam. Do you think your results might be a bit more dramatic than the stock-cam crowd? For example, my cam gave me 100-200 rpm of my powerband back with my larger turbos.

Compared to a 2nd gen nothing huge. My cam has the same exhaust duration as a 2nd gen, which is 8% more duration than I had stock. The intake is open longer, so there will be more air entering which results in lower boost for the same CFM. Compared to a 3rd gen its more noticeable, but its a Stage 1 cam which the main function of is to remove the in-cylinder EGR on a 3rd gen, not huge flow gains. I would guess that injectors would have the same spool effects as the slightly longer intake duration on my cam vs a stock 2nd gen cam, if not greater effects.

It's pretty clear from these and other comments that you took this discussion personally, and I think any of your subjective findings should be interpreted with that in mind. And like the "surprised" thing, there really isn't much for me to be "satisfied" over, since, again, none of your findings have anything to do with my underlying point.

And the Apache question was to see if you had experience flying turbines, with the hope of working in some parallels to turbo physics into the discussion. But that's a moot point now, since your emotional attachment to this has killed any interest I had in this thread.

I'm glad your turbo works for your application. It's good to see that internet hype does work out occasionally.

Interestingly enough I had the same thoughts about you. Without any real comprehension of the facts you kept stating your point. . I simply provided the information at hand... I didn't move it to a personal level, but will admit that your blind eye to the facts got quite frustrating.

Despite talking about this turbo in this thread there is VERY VERY little internet hype about the Garrett kits, they are not common. My research was based on finding the few dealers that sell them, and/or, have ran them as well as people that have ran them and talking to them. . Very little of what I learned about them came from reading internet "hype" as you call it.

 

[NIsaacs]

I have been following this thread and must say that I am impressed at the restraint and manners used. Very informative also, however over my head at times.



I always figured the third gen. exhaust manifold and turbo was a step backwards. I also always figured that high HP caused performance issues that high torque could get by with. All my trucks are low on HP and high on trq. The new 800 Dodge is a good example of this. All my stock turbos have an awesome spool down after shutdown, if that means anything:-laf



Nick

 

[AH64ID]

I guess I have never heard a stock turbo spin after shutdown, at least nothing like this!

I agree, I wan't torque not hp. If I wanted a high hp motor I would have gotten a gasser. I was playing last night and can build 5-7 more psi with this turbo than I could the stocker in the 1800-2000 rpm range. . thou I did find out I need a new clutch now!

I was thinking about the reference in wheel size. The stock compressor for me was a 60x82mm wheel (just under 60 actually, but dont recall the actual size 59. xx), and the turbine was a 68x60 with a 9cm housing. The Stage 2 has a 61. 4x82mm comp wheel and 72. 5x64 mm turbine wheel with a . 89 a/r housing. . roughly 16 cm. To show how much the bearing design effects the spool the stock turbo should, based solely on comp/turbine/housing numbers, spool much faster. . while it holds more boost for a given load once you get on it and demand fuel the Garrett is quicker. . bearings make a huge difference. . I know that means the Stage 1 will spool quicker still, but spool isn't the issue its overall performance from spool to flow to PR... . Okay, I'll quite rambling...