2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission clutch problem? Please help!

[tblb0900]

6 yr old clutch with probably about 60 or 70k miles on it. I drive the truck to work and back every day. Clutch has been perfect since the day it was installed. I hopped in the truck to go to work yesterday and immediately noticed that it took less force to press down the pedal. Normally when I release the pedal, the clutch starts to engage right away. Now the clutch does not start to engage until the last couple of inches of pedal travel. Everything was normal when I parked the truck the night before. I reluctantly drove the truck to work stopping along the way to check. I noticed nothing else unusual. Once truck is moving everything seems normal, I just shift without clutch. TIA for any input.

 

[GCroyle]

It almost sounds like your hydro's burped a bubble out of the master cylinder.



You should have a bit of reserve travel in the pedal as you come up off of the floorboard before the truck starts to pull maybe 1 1/2-2 inches. Then the friction zone from just engaged to full engagement. Then the hydro's relax ALL hydraulic pressure as you take your foot off of the pedal. If you had an air bubble, engagement could start RIGHT OFF OF the floorboard. Friction Zone then a lot of nothing to the top of the pedal travel.



Test. Start engine, press pedal to normal floorboard position, no fuel, slowly bring pedal up, reserve travel?, friction zone, relaxation of pressure. Accelerate go thru all gears. When you get to 5th NAIL IT foot off of the pedal, slipping? NO? Life is good, relax.



Your truck does not have old school freeplay at the bearing, it is constant contact. Hydros start building pressure after 1'/8" master cylinder pushrod travel. NOT PEDAL, PUSHROD. A bubble will delay the start of the release and begin engagement too soon. It will also screw up the relationship of your leg muscles to the pedal and the force you are trying to overcome to release clutch.



Time for test drive, then report back.



Gary

 

[HHhuntitall]

How old is your master and slave cylinder setup? Is it stock or original? The problem may lie there..... Nothing lasts forever... If it does have some air in it, it's most likely got a small leak somewhere. You can try to bleed the slave cylinder by taking it off, pressing it in and out slowly, hose up, and seeing if it takes much fluid. You'll have to remove the top of your fluid reservoir, and watch out for blowing out the top if it does have some air in it, or if you push too fast... .

 

[tblb0900]

Did the test drive, and no slippage. Good news? Looking through the service manual on how to remove slave cylinder, and cannot find it. Can I just remove the 2 nuts and pull it out? Or do I have to go through more steps? I do not want to drop this transmission again if I don"t have to. Slave and master are original as far as I can tell, If I bleed the slave and nothing changes how do I know what to replace? Thank you for the replies.

 

[GCroyle]

Slave cylinder, remove the two nuts, slave cylinder comes out. For installation, just make sure that the pushrod pockets into the fork, compress S/C onto studs, start nuts, tighten.



Inspect by removing pushrod and boot, look for fluid behind or in boot. See fluid? Not good, worn out and leaking. Also inspect pushrod area of M/C for weeping. DO NOT push clutch pedal with slave cylinder removed and not retained in some fashion.



Do not approach this with brake bleeding practices, you will not be sucessful.



This might help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWxpUYiBHKQ&list=UUSufPrfq8lm0rYJ0cM03jXg&index=15&feature=plcp

 

[HHhuntitall]

OH yeah, great video, Gary! Personally, I think if you're bleeding an existing system on a Dodge, I don't think the WHOLE assembly needs to be taken off... . but that's JMO. Certainly good pointers there, such as removing ALL the air in a system, and tapping lines and slave cylinder to facilitate that. I usually just press mine in with my hand, making sure to have the line up, and fairly straight... . Air needs to go to the top and out!! Also, let me add, watch for moving it too fast, as you can blow the air or fluid out and onto your truck. If you do get it on your truck, be sure you get it off pretty quick, and perhaps even wash that area, to keep the brake fluid from eating up paint, plastic, and rubber!!



Anyway, tblb, if your slave cylinder or master cylinder does have any leakage of any form on it, it needs to be replaced, just as Gary said. Many auto parts dealers don't sell just the slave cylinder, and only sell as a whole assembly. Not a bad idea for the mileage and age on your truck, if it's giving you trouble, as if the slave cylinder is bad, typically, the master cylinder is not far behind it..... The Dorman part number is CC649029 for the whole assembly, and I think I gave around $160 for the last one I bought from Orielly's. Not a bad investment every 15 years or so... (provided, that is the problem you're having..... )



Let us know if that helps or not!!

 

[tblb0900]

Awesome video and info! I will give this a try and report back. Might take a couple of days. Still driving truck, runs good but just a totally differen't pedal feel. Thank you for the help.

 

[GCroyle]

OH yeah, great video, Gary! Personally, I think if you're bleeding an existing system on a Dodge, I don't think the WHOLE assembly needs to be taken off... . but that's JMO. Certainly good pointers there, such as removing ALL the air in a system, and tapping lines and slave cylinder to facilitate that. I usually just press mine in with my hand, making sure to have the line up, and fairly straight... . Air needs to go to the top and out!! Also, let me add, watch for moving it too fast, as you can blow the air or fluid out and onto your truck. If you do get it on your truck, be sure you get it off pretty quick, and perhaps even wash that area, to keep the brake fluid from eating up paint, plastic, and rubber!!

HHuntitall,



Good catch, time to clarify one point. 2nd Gen has a chance to do the burping in the chassis if you were just going to R&R the S/C. Most of my work has been 3rd gen, forgot this is a 2nd gen. The single biggest difference is 2nd is Piston Port and 3rd Gen uses a Check Valve design. Each needs its own technique. Check valve systems can be identified by the "stacking" of the input supply on top of the discharge connection. They are not completely in line, off by 3/8" or so. But Piston Port, fluid comes in at one end and travels maybe 2 or more inches to the discharge connection. Check Valve systems must be tipped with the air bubble at the check valve end and really at 45 degrees or even a bit more. (Can you say Ford Ranger?) The reason is that the fluid ENTERS and AIR bubble exit thru a small hole at the centerline of the bore. but Piston Port systems only need a few degrees of tilt to position the bubble at the port on TOP of the bore. You really need to picture if I was a bubble, where would I hide? Then let physics help you, tip the system so in these cases the bubble goes UP and out the top. This video has a hydro install that starts at the 22:50 mark showing a M/C and S/C R&R on my 1997. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS4H4oImDhE&list=UUSufPrfq8lm0rYJ0cM03jXg&index=4&feature=plcp the M/C is slightly tipped to help position the bubble at the port, but if it is a check valve system, you gotta tip it.





Good . 02$ HHuntitall.



Gary

 

[tblb0900]

Well I ended up bleeding the system on chasis and it seemed to help a little bit but not much. I bought a new slave and master cylinder, but have not had time to install. I have not been driving the truck a whole lot since the problem started, but today when I went to merge onto the freeway I nailed it in 5th gear and the clutch slipped pretty bad. Could this still be hydraulics or might I have another problem. There is no leakage at all at slave or master cylinders that I can see. Is it a good idea to change the hydraulics anyway, I believe they are original. Thank you for any help!

 

[HHhuntitall]

Uhhhh, maybe? Definitely a problem somewhere. I'd lean towards clutch issues if it's slipping under a load... . Perhaps the pressure plate has lost some springs, and that's hurting the disengaged feel and actions... . If any of that has gone through the clutch and been under the pads between it and the flywheel or pressure plate, it's gonna have to be serviced... . I pulled one earlier this year that had upchucked the pilot bearing and the little needles had come down into the clutch material, rolling against the flywheel under the clutch disc. Needless to say, it took quite a bit to clean up the flywheel..... You might could pull the slave cylinder and see in there with a snake/flex camera... . It would surprise me to see a broken South Bend, but anything is possible... . what did you use? The 350hp Con-OFe 1350?

 

[tblb0900]

I am not sure. The clutch was installed 6 years ago before I bought the truck by a former TDR member. After I bought the truck I just copied the signature. Is there anyway to find out?

 

[HHhuntitall]

At this point, I'd suggest trying to see what you can see. I'd suggest pulling the slave cylinder, and using a bore snake camera or something similar, try and look at the clutch fingers and internals... . Also look for any clutch material coming down out of the gap between the transmission and bell housing. It should be fibrouse and look kinda like fiberglass... ...

 

[PC12Driver]

My SBC OFE failed the same way at about 100k miles and 7 years. Pedal pressure suddenly was lighter, and the engage point was within the first few inches of pedal travel. I figured the clutch was on its way out, so I took a drive over to SBC to get a replacement. On the way back I felt another "pop" in the clutch pedal during a shift, the pedal got even softer, and the clutch disengaged at the top of the pedal stroke. I floated the gears for the rest of the trip and only pushed in the clutch pedal as far as was needed to stop at lights to keep the clutch from coming apart any further.

After pulling the clutch, it was pretty clear that it was starting to separate. I didn't have any extra parts floating around in there, but the fingers were on a slope.

I'd plan on a clutch replacement. If it was in the hydraulics, the physics of mechanical advantage would mean that if pedal pressure became easier, then less work would be done at the slave cylinder (clutch wouldn't disengage). The only thing working against your clutch pedal are the springs in the pressure plate, so if pedal pressure is getting lighter, so is the clamping force.