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Ecodiesel towing test. Suspension sag, mpg, power, and cooling

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Low Battery Voltage Warining

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I salute you for the amount of time and thought you put into your post. That was a lot of effort you put into helping a complete stranger who may well just be one more knucklehead youngster with silly facial hair and jeans falling off his butt, for all you know.

I did follow the hitch length discussion. Many years ago I came out of school as a mechanical engineer, but instead of using it I joined the Infantry. Not a lot of hard science types in the Infantry. I see your point now re. the "Moment", the product of force and a lever arm, being reduced by the shorter hitch shank. What we might be missing tho is that this applies to all moments that the trailer applies to the truck.

Lets call the rear axle the pivot point, the ball 2' from that pivot point, and my shortened receiver a 10% reduction in lever arm. If the trailer tongue weight is 700lbs then that's 1400ftlbs (2' x 700lbs) of moment applied. There is also 700lbs of "Shear" forces which is the tongue weight itself, neglecting the fact that there's a pivot point.

Lets say the WD hitch tension bars are 2' long and provide 150lbs of total tension, so 300ftlbs of moment. They do not impact shear forces on the system.

Total moment that trailer applies to truck is therefore 1100ftlbs (1400ftlbs - 300ftlbs).

If I understand your point correctly you are saying that that by reducing the shank length by 10% I also reduce my 300ftlbs from the WD hitch. I agree. But I'd point out that shortening the shank length by 10% reduces not just the lever arm for the WD hitch, but also the lever arm that the trailer uses to move the truck around. Therefore the 1400ftlbs is also reduced by 10%. This means that due to shortening the receiver hitch the sum of the moment on the truck is 990ftlbs (10% less than 1100ftlbs), so it's still a net win.

Also, this neglects side to side movement. By shortening the distance to the pivot point by 10% I reduce the ability for trailer sway to move the truck around, therefore the trailer stays more stable when semi's pass.

The discussion above assumes that all forces and lever arms are at 90deg to each other, and in real life they aren't. I had to do it that way or it would get too complicated. Besides, I don't remember how to do cross products in order to make the "not 90deg" math work.

Did I get your point correctly? Did my counter make sense and is it believable?
 
I had never considered the shorter shank effecting the weight transfer to the front... that means my 6" longer shank (18" pin to ball) should transfer more weight right?

Maybe I read it wrong, but I thought JDoremire didn't say it would reduce the effect of the WDH on the truck, just on the transfer to the front axle??
 
Shorter shank means less lever arm so all weight xfer is reduced by a percentage. Therefore a longer hitch shank means that the WD hitch xfers more weight. But the longer shank also means that the trailer lifts the truck's front axle more too. The longer shank does both. In my 10% shorter shank example, the shorter shank is still a win because 10% of 1400ftlbs (tongue weight moment) is a lot more than 10% of 300lbs (WD hitch moment)

I didn't understand "didn't say (shorter shank) would reduce the effect of the WDH on the truck, just on the xfer to the front axle." The effect of the WDH "is" the transfer of weight to the front axle.
 
Electric fans are CFM rated freestanding - that is without any radiators or other restrictions. I recall the wimpy e-things top out around 5000 CFM freestanding.

Radiators are restrictive. Bug screens are a known restriction. A radiator hung out the window at 60 MPH isn't going to have 60 MPH of air going through it. Air's escape path is also a big factor. Most of the air that goes thought the radiator stack goes under the vehicle. The air dam under the front bumper makes a difference to a low pressure area under the vehicle.

Yes, you get some airflow at 60 MPH. There is a point on some vehicles where fans are a 'windmill' restriction as the fan with the clutch kicked out is spinning faster than engine RPM from airflow. Downshifting to higher RPM can move more air. One reason you may need a lower gear to keep cool with high loads.

Long time ago I had a Trailblazer SS that wouldn't keep cool. 395hp/400 TQ in a little SUV and a 21" fan. I took a wind speed meter and measured MPH using a grid to average airflow. Hood closed 0 MPH in the garage to eliminate wind effects with the AC condenser, radiator, and engine in the way I measured 10,000 CFM from the mechanical fan. I tested RPM all the way up till the fan belt started to squeal. It had an EV fan I could force to go 100% lockup and then a friend to hold higher RPM steady. My conclusion is that electrics don't stand a chance at moving the amount of air a mechanical fan will. Further, although there was plenty of airflow, the radiator was too thin and couldn't use it all. The solution I helped a aftermarket company bring to market was a ~1.5" thick radiator vs. the factory 1" unit.

As a popular mod on GM 6.5 diesels is to drop in a improved 19" or 21" Duramax fan and I had an extra 21" Trailblazer SS fan sitting around... It cools 2x the HP and the same TQ of course I tried it. The first grade with the windows down and heater on high I learned something about blade pitch. The 10,000 CFM fan did not have enough airflow for the IDI diesel. The 6.5 GM bodystyle has an airflow problem with plenty of radiator.

So mechanical diesel fans pull way more than 10,000 CFM. Dodge fan sizes may vary, but, pitch and driven RPM make a difference.

I am not sure I could see very well over a 9' tall and 9' wide radiator. :D CAT?

Ok, let me try to give the fan issue a run for it's money.

The issue is my surprise that the Cummins fan has a significant impact at freeway speeds.

As I scheme up my arguments I realize I'm missing something. What engages the mechanical fan? I assume it's a temp sensitive clutch? In the examples in this thread that say words to the affect of "I was on the freeway at speed, I turned on the fan and my coolant temp went down", how did the driver turn his fan on? If there's no switch and it comes on by itself, how does the driver know his fan just turned on? Maybe you can hear it in the cab over the engine and roadnoise? We are talking about the mechanical fan and not some electrical aux fan, right?

Re. seeing around a 9' radiator. A 9 ft^2 radiator is 3x3. Isn't that in the ballpark for a Cummins?
I agree that mechanical fans have more capacity then electrical fans. That's why I used 10k cfm instead of 3k cfm in my example. I think that most electrical fans are rated at 3k cfm.

Re. Radiators being restrictive. Sure, they're restrictive, but one should separate dynamic pressure from static pressure. Anything that blocks windblast will significantly drop the dynamic pressure at the face of the radiator. But the static high pressure zone behind the grill isn't changed by the fact that there is an intercooler and oil cooler forward of the radiator. That high pressure air has to go somewhere and if the radiator is properly shrouded it has only one place to go....thru the radiator.

Re. the bugscreen. I agree that's a restriction. Since it covers the entire front of the radiator, it would reduce both dynamic and static pressures. It's important for the air blast to get into the enclosed area behind the grill where it has no other place to go but thru the radiator. A bug screen would tend to divert air around the truck so that it didn't get trapped by the shrouding forward of the radiator. As such, it would have a big effect on cooling.

Re. Measuring fan cfm with a windmeter. That was clever. However to really get good numbers you'd have to rig up something that measured only lateral air flow and not rotary airflow. For example, for a puller fan the wind meter would have to go forward of the radiator. That's a big problem with fans. Unless the stand-off distance allows effective stators to be placed between fan and radiator, much of what the fan does is spin air, not pull air. Especially if the radiator tines are fine instead of coarse.

The race car example, where we turn our fans off as soon as the car is moving, is important. This pretty clearly depicts the basic relative cooling efficiency of fan vs. high speed air blast. A race car engine is under lots of stress being at WOT almost constantly, therefore generates a lot of heat. You guys know Cummins and I don't, so I'm happy to agree that your shared experiences are valid. But it's hard to accept that as a general principle mechanical fans are a significant contributor to engine cooling at freeway speeds. The math doesn't work.
 
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The HD trucks use an ECM controlled fan with a viscous clutch, I am going to guess the 3.0VM does the same.
 
The HD trucks use an ECM controlled fan with a viscous clutch, I am going to guess the 3.0VM does the same.
So running the risk of a really dumb question, you can hear the fan come on over the engine and roadnoise? I mean like there's no ambiguity whether or not it's on at any one time.
 
So running the risk of a really dumb question, you can hear the fan come on over the engine and roadnoise? I mean like there's no ambiguity whether or not it's on at any one time.

It's difficult to hear on my 05, but plain as day in the 06 and newer truck I have been in. I am not sure why, maybe a fan blade change?
 
So running the risk of a really dumb question, you can hear the fan come on over the engine and roadnoise? I mean like there's no ambiguity whether or not it's on at any one time.

The fan in my 2010 can definitely be heard coming on over road and engine noise. I can also hear the change in fan speed as the ECM slows it down. It sounds like a small plane taking off. Fortunately it does not stay on very long and only comes on when I'm towing on a grade in warmer weather. I can also watch the coolant temperature drop quickly a short time after the fan come on.
 
The HD trucks use an ECM controlled fan with a viscous clutch, I am going to guess the 3.0VM does the same.

The last time I was under the hood and under the front end there is no fan attached to the engine, appears to be an electric fan attached to the radiator. There is about a foot and a half of room maybe more between the front of the engine and the radiator. You can't even see the harmonic balancer due to a plastic cover.
 
DIESEL ENGINE

The cooling system consists of:

Coolant Temperature Sensor
Engine Oil Cooler
EGR Cooler
Electric Cooling Fan
Engine Coolant
Hoses and Hose Clamps
Pressurized Coolant Recovery System
Pressure Cap
Radiator
Thermostat
Transmission Oil Cooler
Water pump
 
DIESEL ENGINE

The cooling system consists of:

Coolant Temperature Sensor
Engine Oil Cooler
EGR Cooler
Electric Cooling Fan
Engine Coolant
Hoses and Hose Clamps
Pressurized Coolant Recovery System
Pressure Cap
Radiator
Thermostat
Transmission Oil Cooler
Water pump

Interesting, I wonder if that is an effort to squeeze every last mpg out of the truck?

I also wonder if that has any effect on the max tow rating?

Thanks for the correction.
 
Interesting couple of items. I did not even suspect the diesel would use electric fans! :eek: Myself I would have a hard time trusting a electric fan diesel pickup, but, a 1/2 ton is too small for my needs anyway. I know Ram has done a lot of work with cooling including the shutter system for MPG so I have hope it can handle it. In 121 degree AZ with 7% and higher grades that go for miles and past GM experience retrofitting electric fans I still fear electrics just won't cut it at full engine power. So I am very interested in how this works out for you. Perhaps there is a very high CFM special part number for the electric fans on that diesel truck? If so it will be a popular aftermarket mod to some other stuff for sure.

I read 9^2 as to the power of. "9^2 = 81". :-laf I guess you mean 9 by 2.

My old notes and again only needed a ballpark to make a few points. I include them here as you would find the airflow MPH figures while sitting still interesting. Even with the MPH numbers below this illustrates what the fan can do and has to overcome to move air while going down the road. The airflow of the vehicle at speed is a design consideration for cooling. A trade off of too much radiator airflow when not needed is loss of MPG.

1) CFM is lower for electrics even freestanding.
2) MPH of airflow through radiator.
3) After 1200 RPM (With this mechanical fan) it is game over for electrics even at freestanding no restriction airflow. Other deeper pitch fans the RPM 'game over' is lower.

Factory EV clutch fan for a TrailBlazer SS:
The fan and clutch assembly is 9.8 Lbs of rotating mass plus 4 fan to clutch bolts.
Fan is in overdrive: Drive ratio 1:1.280
Blade count = 10
2.5” blade depth (pitch)
3.75” to 5”, inside to outside, blade width
Diameter 21” (Wow!)
9.75” of the center wasted due to clutch and fan center blockage.
No free air space between blades. (High suction ability for restrictive radiator stacks.)
18.75” shroud Diameter – rest used for double ridge air seal and noise control I guess.
13.5” from bottom to upper restriction on shroud. Upper shroud restriction is 3” from fan. This is from fan center being too high for radiator location. Top of fan circle is over the top of the stack.

First test: 'idle'
600 ENGINE RPM
768 FAN RPM
6.94 MPH avg airflow
2050 CFM

Second test
~1200 ENGINE RPM (Fast as HPTuners can command)
1472-1504 FAN RPM
14.62 MPH avg airflow
4350 CFM

Third quick test
800 ENGINE RPM
9 measurements all are +3 MPH over 600 RPM
10 MPH rounded up .06
2975 CFM.

Last test
~3024 ENGINE RPM (helper on throttle)
3424 FAN RPM
35.46 MPH avg airflow
10500 CFM


LS1 type aftermarket replacement electric fan.
4925 freestanding CFM on battery power: avg 16.6 MPH. Installed CFM was not tested, that is radiator and hood down restrictions that lower the CFM of any fan.


From the WD hitch link I gave I am at odds with their description of the rear tires not being part of the equation. I think it is clear that a lot of things are going on with it that most don't expect.
 
Interesting couple of items. I did not even suspect the diesel would use electric fans! :eek: Myself I would have a hard time trusting a electric fan diesel pickup, but, a 1/2 ton is too small for my needs anyway. I know Ram has done a lot of work with cooling including the shutter system for MPG so I have hope it can handle it. In 121 degree AZ with 7% and higher grades that go for miles and past GM experience retrofitting electric fans I still fear electrics just won't cut it at full engine power. So I am very interested in how this works out for you. Perhaps there is a very high CFM special part number for the electric fans on that diesel truck? If so it will be a popular aftermarket mod to some other stuff for sure.

I read 9^2 as to the power of. "9^2 = 81". :-laf I guess you mean 9 by 2.
Terrific that your curiousity had you poking around gathering data and doing experiments.

Re. 9^2. I think what I wrote was 9 ft^2. As in 9 square feet. If not, sorry for the mistake.
 
HI i bought a new 2014 laramie, and my suspension drop in the rear was horrible as well as the handling. I bought a new set of TIMBREN SES from summit racing, It only took 1 min 46 seconds to install with the help of a friend holding the jack and they were only $200. and they never need maintenance and only automatically work when you have a load in the bed or hook up to a trailer.
 
I dunno, those make me nervous. They look like a bumpstop, not something with the more pliant F=kX of a spring. If you looked at a curve of suspension movement to load you should see a fairly predictable and linear response. More load means more spring deflection. But a bumpstop has far less compliance then a spring. That creates a knee in the curve where suspension response varies radically from smoothly compliant (spring) to barely compliant at all (spring+bumpstop).

Maybe those SES's are much softer than they look?
 
I have a friend that put them on a Chevy and then removed them and installed air bags as he did not like getting kicked in the butt. SNOKING
 
Timbren SES work great. I install them on all my trucks do to air bag failures on previous rigs. If you install them you will want to perform a test to see if you need the spacer that comes with them or not. Most trucks I've had DO NOT need the spacer and installing the spacer causes contact too soon and can adversely affect empty ride quality. The only time I can see needing the additional spacer would be if you carried a heavy load like a slide in camper all the time.

My factory ride quality is retained with SES and was always poor with airbags.
 
Timbren SES work great. I install them on all my trucks do to air bag failures on previous rigs. If you install them you will want to perform a test to see if you need the spacer that comes with them or not. Most trucks I've had DO NOT need the spacer and installing the spacer causes contact too soon and can adversely affect empty ride quality. The only time I can see needing the additional spacer would be if you carried a heavy load like a slide in camper all the time.

My factory ride quality is retained with SES and was always poor with airbags.

You are one of the first people I have seen that is happier with Timbren than airbags, most start with Timbrens and sell them after a few uses.
 
You are one of the first people I have seen that is happier with Timbren than airbags, most start with Timbrens and sell them after a few uses.

And I've changed more than a few minds with proper setup. Most of my friends run Timbrens now after repeated failures of airbags due to bad Alaska road conditions, compressor failures and leaks at -40. Timbrens are zero maintenance and that is the big draw to them. I ran air bags for years before I found a better way. Timbrens really come in handy on the front end for plow trucks too. It's a lot cheaper option than a Kelderman air ride front end (which would be optimum if cost weren't a factor).
 
And I've changed more than a few minds with proper setup. Most of my friends run Timbrens now after repeated failures of airbags due to bad Alaska road conditions, compressor failures and leaks at -40. Timbrens are zero maintenance and that is the big draw to them. I ran air bags for years before I found a better way. Timbrens really come in handy on the front end for plow trucks too. It's a lot cheaper option than a Kelderman air ride front end (which would be optimum if cost weren't a factor).

That's talking out of both corners of your mouth! Air Bags are bad/Kelderman air ride is good? Chris
 
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