FASS Dyno Results

[Sled Puller]

Still confused here.



How can Ekstam A be sueing Ekstam B for patent infringement, and then come out here and insist that Ekstams B's product does not work?????



If the product is close enough to the Preporator to be a lawsuit, then I deduce, the Preporator does not work either, or they both work.

You can't have it both ways.



I would like to see this happen at Kauffmanns, 4 hours away, but I would make the trip.

One thing I have noticied about those guys, is the BS stops at the door, they don't play games or manipulate numbers.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Preporator, I need you to answer a few questions for me. I want you to post on the boards here what it is you are claiming. Are you claiming that your system will produce Horsepower/Torque on the dyno that we did our previous test on? Your one post also was edited by the webmaster, so I didn't get the whole understanding of what it is you want. PM me with your ideas. I also will not be here for the next few days (work) but I will be in contact in the near future, if a number is provided to me. Thanks Don

 

[Big P]

Good point Sled Puller! Another thing, Cuda6pack runs 10psi to the VP, which is above the 8psi acceptable range, but I'm wondering if a higher pressure would alter the dyno results with the engine under max load?

 

[CEkstam]

This is going to look like a shopping list, but you asked!!!



Sled Puller: I have never "insisted" anything about the other system per se. I have explained a number of facts about air separation systems and suggested what to look for. The conclusions that you or others may draw are your own.



Cuda6pack: I have claimed:



Air becomes entrained in diesel fuel through mechanical agitation (Ref. Milwaukee School of Engineering Handbook of Hydraulics, page 33, Cummin's Service Topic 5-135), and can exceed 10% by volume (Caterpillar's Special Instruction 651-1250).



A pump operating under a vacuum or a pressure flow that does not meet the demand of the pump cavitates which produces fuel vapor (Ref. Pump Suction Conditions, page 20, Pumps and Systems Magazine May 1990). The references noted are just a few of many.



Entrained air and fuel vapor is nearly always presence in fuel systems and has the following effect; A. It displaces the lubricant, the fuel, and causes metal on metal abrasive wear. B. It can implode from sudden pressure changes inside the injector barrel causes galling or pitting. C. The most important for power, air/vapors are compressible and when present in the high pressure portion of the fuel injector delay the pressure buildup. D This retards the injection resulting in, E. rough and wet idle, F. poor throttle response, G. low torque output, H. peak torque falling off quickly, I. increased unburned HC, J. formation of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. K. higher compression ratios, L. Higher ignition temperature, M. increased Nox, N. tip erosion, O. increased DPM (total Diesel Particulate Matter), and the overall degradation of performance of the diesel engine that has been the problem of the industry world wide.



I have stated that in eliminating the entrained air/vapor that develops within the fuel supply system of the diesel would, by restoring the injection timing to the designed spec's, increase the power output of the engine in question and make a substantial improvement in all of the above mentioned in A thru ...



Big P,

A point about increasing fuel pressure and improving performance or increasing power output. First, let's assume the design of the engine is correct as it leaves the drawing board, then any improvements in performance made in the field to the stock engine is simply eliminating an inadequacy. For instance, low rail pressure in an ECM controlled unit injector would result in the injector not filling on the up stroke, this would cause cavitation and vapor within the injector, etc.



Low pressure and poor performance begin at the inlet to the lift pump or transfer pump, it comes down to one point. If the fuel supply system is inadequate to supply the necessary pressure flow to the pump and the filtration method is inadequate to remove the contaminates, entrained air/vapor is probably the worst contaminate, then engine performance will suffer.



Also, Fuel Preporator does not recommend using a tank vent for a return line. This can create a high pressure within the tank, not good. If the filtration/delivery system is adequate and complete (this includes air/vapor separation), having the return line reasonably close to the pickup or outlet to the engine isn't a problem.



KRS,

Pump cavitation from working under a vacuum or inadequate pressure head is the point. The design of the system must consider a NPSH (Net Positive Suction Head) that meets the needs of the system. I'm starting to sound redundant.



And finally, to Mr. Steve St. Laurent, Thank You. I hope this wasn't too much.



Charles L. Ekstam

 

[turbo lcc]

Preporator, Where do you recommend the return line be routed?

 

[Big P]

I'm still not sure about the return, but it sounds like Mr. Ekstam is suggesting gravity feed?

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

So, Once again I ask the question:



Preporator, I need you to answer a few questions for me. I want you to post on the boards here what it is you are claiming. Are you claiming that your system will produce Horsepower/Torque on the dyno that we did our previous test on?



I want you to tell me what your system will do for perfomance of my truck. You tell me how much, if any, difference you are claiming as compared to the FASS that is installed now on my Cummins. Are you claiming Horsepower/Torque, And if so ... How much? I dont own a locomotive or airplane, just a Cummins

When installing a new device on your engine, you need to know what you are getting!!!



So, tell me what I am going to get or expect out of YOUR system. Numbers please... ... ..... Thanks Don

 

[WadePatton]

Outta LUCK

Well, I made the offer to Brad a long time ago. "I'll try your pump (FASS) on the dyno, if it produces significantly more HP (5-10%) then I'll BUY it. If not, you can have it back. " or something like that.



Now Charles offers a pump for testing, but I don't have a FASS to run it against AND I'm over the HP limits. I'm around 450 now.



For reference, I'm running stock LP with 3/8 lines and AN-8 fittings throughout. FP never drops below 6#, idles at 12.

 

[CEkstam]

Revised Reply

The question of whether an improvement in torque or horsepower is realized by the addition of air/fuel separation - The answer is YES! This was proven by the West Virginia University Emission Lab when testing the Fuel Preporator.



Next, regarding the Dyno Chart posted by Hammer, let me explain some of the intricacies of air/fuel separation:



We know that a normal vacuum feed system registers a vacuum at the fuel pump inlet which increases as the rpm increases or as the filter plugs. We also know that reducing vacuum or creating a positive pressure to eliminate the effect of restricted fuel flow will increase horsepower.



Because I have no idea to the details of Hammer's test and only have Hammer's graph and 13 years of direct experience in air/fuel separation technology,45 years of automotive/diesel background and 5 current patents issued, 1 allowed and about to issue and filings in 117 countries, I can only offer up a possible explaination, so take it for what its worth:



If you examine the dyno chart posted by Hammer from Fall Brawl, you will notice that the modified engine produced a large increase in torque off idle, just as the University of W. VA test produced with the Fuel Preporator. However, as the RPM increases and the flow demand of the engine increases, power suddenly falls off, even lower than with the stock lift pump. Therefore, in my opinion - and again, I only have the graph and my experience to go by, it is highly probable that the fuel pump on the device on the modified engine was cavitating more than the original Dodge lift pump on the engine and began passing large volumes of air to the engine. Thus, more cavitation means more vapor, leading to greater retarded injection timing and less power. Again, for disclosure purposes, I only have the graph and my experience to go by.



Finally, Cuda6pack, its your thread, but I'll make you a deal. I'll donate a Fuel Preporator - FREE - for a dyno run. We (you and my technical team), or whoever else wants to be involved, must get together to discuss a protocol. The dyno run must be legitimate and done in a controlled manner. The engine should be a 2002 or earlier (I'm happy to explain why) and not be more than 350 - 400 hp. Let me say publicly Cuda that I really appreciate both your skepticism and willingness to provide independence in this issue. I hope my offer will suffice.



Thank you,



Charles L. Ekstam

(877) 463-4373

 

[15w40]

There is something I just do not agree with about cavitation, or maybe I just do not understand. As a lift pump sucks fuel from the tank cavitation is certainly possible and probably does occur but how does that add air to the fuel. My understanding is that pump cavitation is a vacuum bubble that forms at the trailing edge of the rotary vane pump. As an example, if I am standing in chest deep water and swing my hand at waist level, I will see a bubble form behind my hand. This bubble is not air but vacuum and quickly collapses and disappears.



In our fuel systems entrained air in the fuel is probably the nucleus of a cavitation bubble but will simply go back to being entrained air when the fuel is pressurized. I just don’t believe cavitation creates more air in the fuel.



On the down side, cavitation will lower the efficiency of the lift pump and lower the volume of fuel delivered to the injection pump. This may be the real problem with the stock lift pump in high HP engines.

 

[hammersley]

Sounds like time to "Put up or Shutup!"

Nuff Said.....

 

[dresslered]

I've had enough!

All that I have seen so far is two guys joining the TDR for nothing more than promoting their own product. In fact, they are competing against each other. I have seen some incredible injector spray patterns, where if true, would yield much more than the 40-hp claimed--how'd you produce these pictures? There has been no evidence offered about any of their claims for our application and now they are offering to do the R&D on our own trucks. Great! I offered to buy either of the two at the beginning of the discussions but neither can offer anything toward increased reliablity (aside from mounting horizontal as opposed to vertical). All that I can say is that for the increased load on the fuel system, they must have a heck of a pump. However, with a two year warrantee, I can continue with stock lift pumps (I can get two years out of these anyway). When the R&D is over, please post the results.

 

[WadePatton]

Oh no, it's just getting going.

Would you rather buy products from folks who just sell them and can't answer your questions? Or from folks who make claims, but are way too busy to discuss them with you? (Mr. Banks maybe)



We're here to try to understand if this technology will help our situation--power wise--hence the word "DYNO" in the name of the thread.



I'm glad that Charles has come on board and begun discussing it from his point of view. He has already offered to donate parts for testing---I couldn't get Brad to go near that.



On the other hand, Brad owns a Dodge truck and says he's been a TDR subscriber since '96.



What I don't care for is folks getting all defensive about why they personally bought the product. That is not what we're debating.



My final sticking point with Brad was that, according to his theory, all the fuel system-induced cavitation/aeration/entrained air would mysteriously vanish when I strapped my truck to the dyno. Therefore I wouldn't see any performance gain.



Brad hasn't posted in some time---



Charles what say ye?

 

[Murle]

Wade, Why don't you back off. You don't seem to want to hear what the users of the FASS are saying??? You think that we are defensive? Sorry but you have not used this product..... You do not know how it is helped the running of my truck because you do not want to believe in this FASS. And you won't listen. I can understand why Brad has not responded to you... Like I said a while ago... If you were trying to be one of my customers... I would have run you out of my store a long time ago. If you don't like what the FASS system is doing. GO And buy the other brand or don't buy aynthing.



I guess you you want to live in a perfect world and have everything just the way you want it.



You stated (quote) Would you rather buy products from folks who just sell them and can't answer your questions? Or from folks who make claims(unquote)



I guess you bought your dodge from people how new EVERYTHING about your truck.



I guess you buy fuel from people how know EVERYTHING about fuel.



Or maybe you know which is the best oil you use in your truck because you talked to someone who knows all about oil.



Sorry for the gripe,but either buy one of these fuel systems or let it die.

 

[WadePatton]

Murle, without resorting to personal attacks--which is prohibited on our boards:

2. Conduct. The TDR encourages lively and informative discussion among Discussion Forum participants. But keep it clean and productive. Do not use or allow others to use your subscription to: 2. 1 Repeatedly post any material that the moderators feel is antagonistic to others or instigates non-productive conflict between users as well as vendors.

I'll respond by saying that a TDR subscriber doesn't have to read threads he/she doesn't want to.



I find the boards here at TDR an excellent place to discuss issues pertinent to Cummins powered Dodge trucks. I find fuel delivery systems to be of interest to many of us. This is proven by the myriad of threads discussing LP's, pusher pumps, banjo fittings, fuel line upgrades, FASS and Preporators, etc. No one is required to read any of these threads. No one is required to refrain from posting intelligent discussion on these threads. Most folks can find information useful to them by reading/participating in these threads.



This is what I participate in the TDR message boards. I have learned much here, and hope to have helped others along the way.



A person can "unsubscribe" from any or all threads he/she wants to. I have done this myself when a thread turns in a direction I don't care to follow.



Murle, it appears that all of your own personal FASS/Preporator questions have been answered. That is fine. Mine haven't.



For the record, I have talked to Brad on the phone--we get along just fine. I haven't talked to Charles yet, but we have PM'd. He seems quite interested in having me test his product.



Gentlemen can have discussions and not agree and not be combative or angry with each other.



I'll agree that this particular subject has been difficult to discuss because of "new" ideas about pre-injection fuel handling and "new" products with no hard numbers to stand on. But it would be a huge disservice to close this discussion for those interested parties who are planning their BOMB strategy by trying to decide whether to put their next 600-800 dollars toward a set of injectors, a turbo, a manifold, etc. , or a fuel transfer pump that might produce more power.



"Put up" or "Shut up" doesn't seem to be condusive to us learning more about these particular systems--or anything for that matter. If I were a moderator, I might find "Put up or shut up" to be "antagonistic to others or instigates non-productive conflict between users as well as vendors. "



May the discourse flourish.



And folks please use PM or email if you find more personal discussion necessary.

 

[WadePatton]

Back to the subject--recap

And for those of you late-comers to the FASS/Preporator discussions, this thread spun off another thread:

(Would you buy one for HP-poll)

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87353&perpage=10&pagenumber=1



Which resulted from an increased HP claim by Brad in this thread:

(system)

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86622&perpage=10&pagenumber=1



And there's some more info in this thread:

(first impressions)

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84192&perpage=10&pagenumber=1



There are plenty of happy customers in those threads. That's good. But at the risk of sounding redundant--no one has shown +HP via a dynojet, mustang, or even a G-tech. That's where this thread came from. Don took it upon himself to see if his RWHP numbers changed. Thank you Don. I don't see his numbers as being the end-all definitive answer. If I did, I wouldn't still be here.



If it works (the HP part) as Brad says it does, then you should be able to dyno/G-tech your truck before install. These numbers should be very similar and repeatable. Then after install, the dyno may or may not show an improvement, BUT the G-tech should show a significant gain.



I have ready access to a Mustang 1750, but no G-tech and no FASS/Preporator. For me to jump in and do the testing without support or guarantee would be $1000 roll of the dice. I like to play, but I'm not THAT big of a high-roller.



Let me talk to Charles some more. We might cook up a deal.

 

[CEkstam]

15w40, let me explain the source and affect of entrained air and cavitation.

Entrained air: Entrained air can be on the surface of the fuel in the form of foam, or it can be in the bulk fluid in the form of tiny bubbles. The ratio of entrained air to fluid volume depends on the viscosity of the liquid and the amount of mechanical agitation the sample is subjected to. For diesel fuel, Caterpillar sums it up quite well in their March 1990 Special Instruction 651-1250, "normally No. 2 diesel fuel contains up to 10% air in solution, although the air is not visible".



We have little or no control of the amount of air that becomes entrained in liquids. We can however, build a filtration system that removes it just as a filter may remove particulate contaminants.



Cavitation is the absence of what is normally there, i. e. , a cavity in a tooth or the Grand Canyon. Our concern here is the cavitation or void (the nothingness) formed in an operating fuel pump from the lack of a Net Positive Suction Head (NPSH) at the inlet to the pump and affects that follow. Vacuum feed systems, meaning a transfer pump depending on atmospheric pressure as a source of mechanical trying to equalize or fill the void created in your pump while it is operating, do not have the capability to produce the pressure flow necessary to meet the demand of the pump at the higher operating engine speeds. Cavitation takes place. Rapid vaporization of the fuel under these conditions produces vapor that does not turn back into liquid on the pressure side of the pump.



Entrained air and fuel vapor is compressible. As it is carried with or by the fuel into the fuel injection system of your engine, it causes a large number of serious problems.



The vapor displaces the lubricant, the fuel. When the original transfer pump dies, the vacuum created between it and the VP44 injector pump creates the vapor that displaces the fuel that is responsible for most if not all of the damage to the VP44 that is discussed in the TDR Forums. Maintain a flow of deaerated fuel to the VP44 injector pump at the necessary positive pressure to meet the operating demand of the pump and these issues may all go away.



As to performance, entrained air and fuel vapor is compressible. In the injector, it delays the pressure buildup which in turn delays the injection. Retard injection timing results in a shorter power stroke of the engine and lost power. It is also the source of the wet idle of the diesel engine. Additionally, as the rpm increases cavitational produced vapors increase, retarded injection timing also increases. For good reading, go to your local truck dealers and pick up a few torque curve charts from some of the major diesel engine manufacturers. You will notice that most all high speed automotive diesel engines achieve peak torque at approximately 1,200 to 1,500 rpm and then take a roller coaster plunge. The is the result of retarded injection timing caused by pump cavitation and the production of excessive vapors, etc. Check the dyno results of the tests performed with Fuel Preporator at the University of W. Va. Emission Lab, it's on the internet. Torque rise off idle increases by 103% to 106% and doesn't fall off as before.



I hope this has been helpful.



Dresslered,

You asked about the injection spray patterns. These pictures were part of a study that was completed by the Department of Mechanical and Industrial Engineering, College of Engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. This was part of a 6 month study of the Fuel Preporator in which levels of air contamination and cavitationally produced vapors were researched. The study also investigated the ability of the Fuel Preporator to eliminate these conditions.



The conclusion found by the study was, "diesel fuel is vaporized in a conventional filtering system and is allowed to pass on to the injector system. Air is also allowed to pass on to the injector system. " Additionally,"Unlike the conventional filtering system, the Fuel Preporator does not allow vaporized diesel fuel to be created, nor does the Fuel Preporator allow entrained air to pass to the injection system. In this manor the Fuel Preporator provides the mechanisms which may lead to increased diesel engine performance, and this increased performance may indeed be in the form of increased horsepower, increased fuel efficiency, and reduced hydrocarbon emissions. "



If you would like a copy of this report, please contact Fuel Preporator International, Inc. at 1-877-463-4373.



As to reliability of the system, Fuel Preporator is now an ISO-9001 Quality Assured Product.



The mission of Fuel Preporator International is to produce a quality product that will help protect the ecology while improving the quality of life for all of us.



Murle, maybe the engineers at Dodge are the best source of information on Dodge Trucks since they designed them. Maybe Cummins is the best source of info for the STOCK Cummins Engine since they designed them. Maybe Fuel Preporator is the BEST SOURCE to learn about AIR/FUEL separation, we invented the technology and patented the systems to deal with it.



For anyone wanting to know if the air separation system they have on their equipment is doing the job, install a sight glass such as Caterpillar's sight glass, part No. 2P8278, available at your local Cat Parts Counter, on the line to your injector pump. Be sure that you have adequate lighting, entrained air is difficult to see especially at high flow conditions. Use a dark background. Run your engine at the various operating speeds when you do this test. Remember Positive pressure to a pump, if it is great enough, will stop cavitation.



Air/vapor separation from fuel under a dynamic high flow condition takes the right stuff.



We at Fuel Preporator Int'l appreciate your questions and comments. Our technology is unique in the world and important to all of us as diesel engines and their emissions come under more and more scrutiny. We will continue to reply to your posts as time allows.



Thank TDR for the forums to discuss these issues of diesel technology,



Charles L. Ekstam

 

[JTBMC]

Preporator,

I would like to know if the replacement filters for your system are available from Heavy Duty Truck parts dealers.

Thanks, TJ

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

Preporator,



I don't understand many things about your system, but thats ok as I am probably not made to. With that said, all the mumbo jumbo about entrained air or NPSH, means nothing to me, absolutely nothing. You can go on and on and it makes no difference.

What would make a difference is if this testing were done when your product was offered to the public. I also don't understand if your product has been out on the market for what , 10 years now, that this market ( Medium duty Truck ) has'nt been tapped yet? Makes no business sense. Something doesn't sound right here.



I did have a problem when Brad made his claims on his FASS system, but it didn't show up on the Dyno. Obviously I don't understand how and when this power is gonna show up on my truck. I knew that the HP wasn't there after the install on the FASS, ( seat of the pants ) but I did have some other testing to do on my truck, so I went to the Dyno, just to be sure of my feeling. I was glad to help many other owners and possible owners out with the information from my dyno.



The HP numbers don't matter to me as I have stated many times that I didn't buy the FASS for HP, but rather for reliability. That is still the case. Is your system more reliable than the FASS?



Objectives:



1. So, to go on from here, you want to give me one of your Preporator systems to try? So< I get to keep the system or is this to try and to give back? Many things would have to be discussed before I would decide to do this "experiment".



2. You put on your system on my truck to see if there is any gains on HP/TQ. If there are any gains, you get a lot of (Possible) business from many members here on the TDR and possibly from other web sites. All while I let you use my truck as a guinea pig. I don't mean to be harsh, but if this system is as what is said, why would you not already have the proof in hand, so to speak, concerning our trucks? ( I think we all put Brad thru the wringer, why not you too )



3. If there are no gains on the truck, what then? I am being very skeptical here, I know, but, that gut instinct of mine is shying away from this.



4. With there being only 3. 3 HP difference and 8. 3 TQ difference from my previous spin on the "Humbler", commonsense tells me that with that small of a difference, if there were any change it was probably from the winterized fuel. Other than that, there were no drastic changes as was thought to be.



5. I personally feel that maybe there is some type of animosity here between you and your competitor. I for one am not going to get in between any of that.



6. I am not saying I am not against doing this experiment, but I think some questions need to be answered before we go any farther with this. I also like to do alot of replying here on the boards, so everyone here that is keeping track of this is as informed as possible.



7. I am not here to try and discredit anything that you may have accomplished in the making of your education /product. But, I do have my questions and concerns about these systems.



8. What are your list of objectives for this test? Inquiring minds want to know.



9. PM me with your business operating hours so I know when to call.



Thanks, Don

 

[Cooker]

Originally posted by cuda6pack

I also don't understand if your product has been out on the market for what , 10 years now, that this market ( Medium duty Truck ) has'nt been tapped yet? Makes no business sense. Something doesn't sound right here.

I would like to comment on this for what it is worth. The Fuel Preporator has been brought up a number of times since I have been a TDR member (just over 3 years). Every time it was mentioned the price seemed to shy people away from giving it a try, this is just my opinon from reading the threads. Now with the search for a reliable fuel system for the 24v's the Preporator and now the FASS do have a bit more of a following than in the previous years.



If I am not mistaken, Blue Chip Diesel has been running and/or selling the Preporator in the past.