HELP!! Carli lower issues

[EnLjones]

Thanks Carlisuspension,

As a soon to be customer it is not only refreshing to see an American company stand behind it's product but to come out and publicly and address an issue in design/production with a solution already in the works is quite refressing! I would like to say "good job" and I look forward to being a satified customer very soon!

 

[carlisuspension]

Right on... I'll make sure that gets to Sage too. Thanks man.

 

[seafish]

Hey Carli, custom machining zerks is fine, but probably pretty dam expensive compared to an existing zerk with a retail price of $2... you guys could probably get em for less then $1 each in quantity... do ya think that the needle type would work... I like it as a zerk cuz the flange bottoms out on the surface (can't over tighten it), and there is just a whole lot more material there for the wrench to grab, but overall has a MUCH lower profile then a regular zerk.

Have you shown it to the Metal Master Sage??

 

[AlaskanCummins]

I can say that Robert at Carli took very good care of me. Got the new ball joints out UPS Red and they were at my front door 1030 or so the following morning. I was able to get my truck back up and going that day.



So, many thanks and huge thumbs up for Carli customer service.



My question is this: the new joints that I put in, with the shorter zirks - are those the zirks that you machined yourself? If not, will you be sending me a replacement set? I'm a bit confused on the issue here at hand.



The first set had the ones that were too long and my new zirks just barely clear. Am I to understand that the shorter zirk in mine now was the type that the supplier was ORIGINALLY suppose to provide and that you're making your own zirks now?



On another note: I'm VERY pleased with the ball joint itself. The stud/ball is very smooth and I can tell everyone that driving my truck the past couple of days has been Heaven compared to what it was before. It's tighter and much more responsive. I also had another issue that I resolved at the same time, but can assure you that the Moogs I removed were shot as they had stiff spots in them.



Basically, I'm very pleased with the product. Please keep us posted on the progress of these improved zirks.

 

[brods]

Mr. Carlisuspension, if guys lube their front driveshaft, then they do have more than one grease gun tip, so your premise for not using the recess may be wrong. Lazy guys like me have two grease guns, one with a standard tip and one with the needle type tip. To use a inferior design just because a needle tip or small outside diameter tip is required to grease the joint is a poor decision.



How much clearance to you expect in the corrected versions?

1. Have you accounted for sloppy freespin kits that allow a bit of yoke up and down movement?

2. What happens when the axle and yokes get covered in ice from road spray, which happens quite often in the winter? The worst case scenario is ice build up with hubs unlocked and then needing 4wd. Will the zerk on a stick survive knocking the ice off the yokes? Have you tested any in the rust belt during the winter?

3. What about offroading in mud where stones and crap get everywhere?

4. If you feel you must get rid of the recess, why didn’t you guys go into the top corner of the ball joint which would allow the zerk on a stick to be more forward and more horizontal (like the Moog design)?



Did you do any testing of this design before deciding to go this route?



If you are going to keep the zerk on a stick you should change your ads pronto.

 

[carlisuspension]

Hey Carli, custom machining zerks is fine, but probably pretty dam expensive compared to an existing zerk with a retail price of $2... you guys could probably get em for less then $1 each in quantity... do ya think that the needle type would work... I like it as a zerk cuz the flange bottoms out on the surface (can't over tighten it), and there is just a whole lot more material there for the wrench to grab, but overall has a MUCH lower profile then a regular zerk.



Have you shown it to the Metal Master Sage??

Yes. The solution isn't an issue. Getting our customers their order is a priority, so the fastest way is to make our own.

 

[carlisuspension]

My question is this: the new joints that I put in, with the shorter zirks - are those the zirks that you machined yourself? If not, will you be sending me a replacement set? I'm a bit confused on the issue here at hand.

If you already have our ball joints, then they aren't the machined zircs. I don't know what batch you installed, but if yours aren't the right zirc, you'll get some from us for sure.

 

[AlaskanCummins]

Well Carlisuspension, I'll keep an eye out in the mail.



Thanks for working so diligently on correcting this issue.

 

[carlisuspension]

Mr. Carlisuspension, if guys lube their front driveshaft, then they do have more than one grease gun tip, so your premise for not using the recess may be wrong. Lazy guys like me have two grease guns, one with a standard tip and one with the needle type tip. To use a inferior design just because a needle tip or small outside diameter tip is required to grease the joint is a poor decision.

How much clearance to you expect in the corrected versions?
1. Have you accounted for sloppy freespin kits that allow a bit of yoke up and down movement?
2. What happens when the axle and yokes get covered in ice from road spray, which happens quite often in the winter? The worst case scenario is ice build up with hubs unlocked and then needing 4wd. Will the zerk on a stick survive knocking the ice off the yokes? Have you tested any in the rust belt during the winter?
3. What about offroading in mud where stones and crap get everywhere?
4. If you feel you must get rid of the recess, why didn't you guys go into the top corner of the ball joint which would allow the zerk on a stick to be more forward and more horizontal (like the Moog design)?

Did you do any testing of this design before deciding to go this route?

If you are going to keep the zerk on a stick you should change your ads pronto.

Ok, let me take this one by one.

1. How much clearance to you expect in the corrected versions?
If you want a measurement, I'll have to ask Sage for specifics. The clearance 'measurement' isn't our end goal, our end goal is hassle-free maintenance and a component that endures whatever use customers throw at it.

2. Have you accounted for sloppy freespin kits that allow a bit of yoke up and down movement?
I think we're getting a little too hypothetical here. Do you have an actual freespin kit in mind, or is this just a curve ball question?

3. What happens when the axle and yokes get covered in ice from road spray, which happens quite often in the winter? The worst case scenario is ice build up with hubs unlocked and then needing 4wd. Will the zerk on a stick survive knocking the ice off the yokes? Have you tested any in the rust belt during the winter?

We have complete sets of our ball joints surviving Canada's winters. I don't know if the snow/ice is worse where you are, but a Canadian winter aint no joke.

4. What about offroading in mud where stones and crap get everywhere?

I have packed my entire stub axle area solid with mud and have beveled the edges of ruts plowing the stuff with my axle. I drove through mud, silt, saltwater and more mud all winter long in Baja. I'm not quite sure what kind of conditions you're anticipating. I think from a thought provoking perspective you could theorize all kinds of hazards to a ball joint zirc, but we haven't had a component failure and we know for a fact what our trucks are subjected to.

#ad


5. If you feel you must get rid of the recess, why didn't you guys go into the top corner of the ball joint which would allow the zerk on a stick to be more forward and more horizontal (like the Moog design)?

There wasn't a problem with the design, what came up was the zirc recess tolerance which we resolved. I'm not sure what Moog does inside their ball joints or why they have theirs where it is.

Did you do any testing of this design before deciding to go this route?
Not quite sure why you're asking this. We aren't changing the design of the component. We're tightening up the tolerance on the zirc recess.

 

[carlisuspension]

Well Carlisuspension, I'll keep an eye out in the mail.



Thanks for working so diligently on correcting this issue.

No worries, we're stoked that we're at the bottom of it, fixed it and now it's just a matter of catching up.



You're welcome bro.

 

[TCDiesel]

As far as quality and function goes...

These ball joints were right from the beginning. I'm running the 3rd set to ever come off the CNC machine... which seems like a hundred of improvements ago and my truck lives a charmed life in Mexico now. It spent the first 2 months covered in mud or grinding it's way through a flooded river bed just to go check my email. My 5th transmission is arriving next week. I've busted 2 pitman arm tie rods and destroyed half of my stock wheels on rocks in the last year and my tire tally is about 20 BFG Projects in less than 2 years. I have production uppers and prototype lowers, and my life is like dog years on a truck. If anyone has a ball joint issue, it'll probably be me before any of you.



The tweaks that have been made are insane... the length someone goes to to deliver a precision machined component is ridiculous. You go pick up any Dodge Ram replacement ball joint and you can probably jiggle that pin around and feel a dead spot in it when you rotate it in your hands... and best of all, no matter what else you buy, you know it's going to wear out and when it does, there's nobody there to back it up. We're standing behind our product 100% and thanks to some very expensive equipment and Sage's paranoia, we're able to run a ball joint that is guaranteed to stay within spec, for as long as you own your truck - That isn't your everyday auto parts offer.



Fire it up guys, let me know if there's something specific you'd like to know, I'll be more than happy to offer some more detail



I here ya on the development, With our New CPRV even the smallest component was tested for 6 months. Owners are depending on this valve to NEVER fail or it may be NEW engine replacement. So we have to get it right the 1st time. Generally things pop up,The greatness of companies are when they do they stand up and take care of it. When new products are released Owner's must pay close attention to details,and if in doubt call and inquire.

Carli went to bat on bringing a product to improve the life of a known weakness. You guy's need to come to MN, we have pot holes that will test those joints beyond any off road I've encountered,add all the chloride they spray on MN roadways,it gets into everything.

 

[carlisuspension]

I'd like to see a MN pothole!

Here's some more info from our website
We tried to kill one by removing the o-ring seal, loosening the cap screws and running it as hard as we could. We simulated a seal failure with exposure to on and off-road environments. We exaggerated this with some desert trips, water crossings and didn't bother to add fresh lube. Basically, we tried to make it fail. There wasn't any feedback or indication of a decline in the performance when we removed the ball joint. On the outside it looked like somebody just didn't take care of it at all, and on the inside, after we wiped the crud off of it, showed a perfect mirror finish on the weight bearing surfaces. There's not a scratch on it.

#ad

#ad


We have tried to hurt one of these things. Before any product gets launched, we try to force it into submission... but to force this ball joint to fail would probably kill the truck first.

 

[brods]

... ... ...

Did you do any testing of this design before deciding to go this route?

Not quite sure why you're asking this. We aren't changing the design of the component. We're tightening up the tolerance on the zirc recess.

Huh? The pictures in the ads clearly show a machined pocket in the ball joint where the zerk goes. The pictures posted in this thread do not have that pocket. Does that mean the joints sold to customers never had the pocket shown in ALL the ads on your site as well as the vendors' sites??? Yes I have a freespin kit and yes it does allow the yokes up and down play. If I get time today I'll measure it. I am not questioning your joints, just the zerk on a stick. Was all the testing you refer to done with a joint like the one pictured in the ads or with the extended zerk pictured in this thread?

 

[Prairie Dog]

Carlisuspension, Why not just change the pic on your site to avoid any misunderstandings about your product? I would be a bit PO'd myself if I paid for a premium product and didn't get exactly what was pictured. Dont get me wrong, I'll probably buy a set of your BJ's some day but it doesn't give people a warm fuzzy feeling to get products that seem to be of a lesser design than you advertise.

It seems like a new pic would clear all this up.

 

[carlisuspension]

Guys, if I had known that people would immediately assume they were being taken for a ride, I wouldn't have posted anything. All I can say is that the production ball joint is much improved and the finishing and refinement of it, including final processes like dry lube coating are better and more expensive than before, so the costs actually went up.

Both designs have a counter sunk zirc recess, with the scallop or not. The zirc HAS TO hit the middle of the ball, not just a corner or one side and this entire issue was not in the design, it was in the machine shop because the machinist didn't run the counter sink bore to print - that's what happened and we're fixing it. I just talked to Sage, he's still at the machine shop and he is finishing this run and this will be squashed.

If anybody is not happy with our ball joints, we'll buy them back from you, that's our performance guarantee. FOR ANY REASON, you are not happy, you can call us and ask us to stand behind our product and we will.

 

[seafish]

Carlisuspension, let me get this staright... BOTH the prototypes and the production run BJs DO have a recessed zirk, BUT the prototype has the scalloped version, while the production ones have a standard, bevel-type countersink... like the ones we use in woodworking to flush out screw heads with the surface of the wood?



Is that it?? That would explain why it LOOKS like there is NO countersink or recess on the production run BJs, cause only the shaft of the zerk below the nut is countersunk into the BJ.



As long as the countersink is the same depth, then it would NOT matter what the shape of the recess or countersink is!!!



Of course, a longer zerk WOULD matter in either case, which is why I STILL think the needle -type stub zerk is even better then a ball zerk, but then again,I am NOT a suspension engineer, like you guys.



Also DO remember that you said in your original post that you were willing to listen to the good, the bad and the ugly, so please keep involved in this discussion, without being offended. As people come to understand the new design with your help and explanations, the LESS chance there is that they will think it is a bait and switch tactic. I, for one, thought that it could be, but let you guys explain the matter before coming to any hard opinions on the subject. Clearly, others here sometimes come to worst case conclusions first, which are then harder to explain away, particicularly using evidence that is NOT visible to the naked eye. While that does not excuse them for being rude, so far NOTHING in this thread that I have read can be construed as overbearing and rude.



Just a helpful idea... you could post a photo of the production run BJ without a zerk at all so that others can see the countersink that you are refering to.



NOT that you have anything to prove beyond simply updating the photos on your website...



Again, thank for all of the excellent products you are making for our trucks!!

 

[carlisuspension]

Here's some photos sage just sent me from the machine shop... he is measuring each one and making every fitment right.

#ad


#ad


#ad


#ad


#ad


I'm open to discussing these, but I can't address everybody's assumption. That's why I said, if your feeling is that you're getting something less, we'll buy them back.

 

[TCDiesel]

Ok here's MN Pothole,In general most are 1-2 feet and 5 to 10 inches Deep, there are 1000s of them and in the spring You can drive for miles on them. We also have those wash board gravel roads that will shake fillings out.

 

[carlisuspension]

Here you go guys.

#ad

 

[seafish]

NICE pix... NICE Balljoints... EXCELLENT customer service!!!


Look forward to getting a full set of Upper and Lower Balljoints from you guys, as the time will SURELY come.

Thanks for all the info!!
seafish