Here I am

I have the answer to the oil shortage

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Coolslice said:
I can't imagine that it would be a good thing economically if hydrogen powered cars were released tomorrow. I assume the Govt. makes a pretty penny off of fuel/gas taxes and they don't want to see that end. I could be talking out of my ***, but that is what I think.



I understand your point, but I respectfully disagree. I think petroleum based fuels are king because they are simply the best internal combustion engine fuels available. They're easy to store, easy to pump, have good ignition qualities. Not to mention at this point all the infrastructure is in place to support them. In my opinion, a better replacement for gasoline would be alcohol and for diesel, biodiesel. That way we can pretty much keep the existing infrastructure in-place.



-Ryan :)
 
HERE'S some interesting reading:

China, the world's second-biggest crude oil consumer, imported 31 percent more of the fuel in December, as the world's fastest growing major economy increased demand for gasoline, diesel and other oil products.



Oil imports rose to 12. 1 million metric tons, or 2. 9 million barrels a day, from 9. 3 million tons a year earlier, the Beijing-based Customs General Administration of China said today. Import growth slowed from 46 percent in November. For the full year, oil imports rose 35 percent to 122. 7 million tons, at a cost of $33. 9 billion, 71 percent more than in 2003.



China's crude oil imports have risen over the past decade from zero to 41 percent of local consumption, as domestic production failed to keep pace with demand that more than doubled to more than 6 million barrels a day.



China's oil imports may rise ``at a level of around 30 percent for the next 3 years'' as domestic production increases less than 1 percent annually, said Michael Lee, a Hong Kong- based oil and gas analyst at UOB-Kay Hian Ltd.



Rusty
 
You're right, ryan... its God's fault. Guy's been sleepin on the job :)



Just a coupla quick points about ethanol and hydrogen as 'alternative fuels':

1. There has been a lot of work done showing that it takes more fossil fuel energy to produce a gallon of fuel ethanol (growing, harvesting, transporting, fermenting, distilling) than you get back by burning the stuff. Fuel ethanol may be a full-employment program for corn farmers, but its not much of a solution to the oil problem. Biodiesel, in contrast, is a net win (mostly because you don't have the energy-intensive fermentation and distillation steps).



2. The media (and the Feds) have been pretty irresponsible talking about hydrogen as an 'alternative fuel'... its not; really, its an energy storage medium, basically like batteries are energy storage media, not fuels. This is so because there's almost no hydrogen gas on this planet... we have to MAKE it, and currently we make it from natural gas, using electricity (that is generated by burning coal, oil, or more natural gas) - so since we can't just tap it and burn it, its not really a 'source' of energy and, like ethanol, it takes more energy to make than it returns when you burn it.



You can also make hydrogen gas from water, via electrolysis, but this consumes huge amounts of electricity. If that electricity is generated by burning coal, gas or oil then hydrogen is still a loser... we're consuming fossil fuels to make a less convenient fuel. But if that electricity is generated from solar energy, then hydrogen is an interesting way to store sunlight and make its energy available for powering vehicles. It all depends on the total fuel cycle, which most popular discussions tend to ignore.
 
I understand what you guys are saying and I totally respect it, but I still believe the effort to find alternate fuels are going to be shot down until we basically have no other choice but to persue it. I have to disagree with the statement that it cost more or takes more to make a gallon of gas then the gallon can provide energy wise. If that were the case, the oil companies wouldn't be the richest companies out there. There is money in it, HUGE money! This is the reason the oil companies have such a strangle hold on everything, including our govt. It is a monopoly IMO. Once they have nothing left to sell, then other products can make there way into the market. We are all slaves to the oil industry believe it or not. I know I sound like a f*@#ing liberal when I say that, but I feel its true.
 
Coolslice said:
I still believe the effort to find alternate fuels are going to be shot down until we basically have no other choice but to persue it.



I definetly agree with that! Amen!



-Ryan
 
Coolslice said:
I know I sound like a f*@#ing liberal when I say that

Hey, its cool, Coolslice... I am a f*@#ing liberal, so I don't mind. By the way, I think we're not supposed to say things like "f*@#ing" on TDR... apparently, only cartoons can legally say #@$%! around here ;)
 
Actually, Economics 101 says that, barring external intervention (e. g. , government regulations, tax breaks, etc. ) alternate fuels will be developed when the cost of primary fuels rises high enough to fund the barrier cost-of-entry of the alternate fuel. This cost isn't just making the fuel - it's the cost of amortization of the entire infrastructure, which includes manufacturing (refineries, processing plants, additional power generation facilities, etc. ), distribution (pipelines, pump or compressor stations, etc. ) and retailing (new/modified fueling stations with requisite fuel handling and dispensing equipment).



Rusty
 
Right you are, Rusty... ain't capitalism grand? (yes, even a f*@#ing liberal can be a capitalist! :) ). If I see an opportunity to make some money with alternative fuels, and if I have (or can get) some capital to get me into the game, I can just move in and do it... oil companies be danged (in fact, if I was an alternative fuels entrepreneur I'd hope to heaven the major oil companies don't wake up to the opportunity until its too late). And that's starting to happen. For instance, the biodiesel industry organization (mostly small entrepreneurs, not many oil majors) says, regarding biodiesel ( http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/Production Capacity_2004.pdf ):

"Current immediate production capacity is estimated to be 150 million gallons per year. This capacity is mostly modular, and can be doubled or tripled in a short time frame (less than 12 months). About 20 new firms have reported their plans to construct dedicated biodiesel plants in the near future. ".

Now, 150 million gallons per year (about 3. 5 million barrels per year) ain't even a drop in our oil bucket (US oil consumption = 20 million barrels per DAY), but its a start, and the growth rate of biodiesel consumption is starting to take off. As you've noted, it takes time and money to build up the required infrastructure... and even more time and money to create market acceptance (for instance, I'm a huge biodiesel fan, but I still haven't worked up the nerve to burn any in my precious CTD).
 
WBusa said:
Hey, its cool, Coolslice... I am a f*@#ing liberal, so I don't mind. By the way, I think we're not supposed to say things like "f*@#ing" on TDR... apparently, only cartoons can legally say #@$%! around here ;)





You have a dirty mind! :D I would never say such a thing. I meant to say "fabulous" or "fantastic". I have been known to fat finger the keyboard at times.
 
Declining oil underground?

Wbusa's figures are incorrect. The oil underground/ocean floor is actually INCREASING in volume. That oil is continually being made by nature, and is seeping from the deep deep shale and mineral deposits there. That is a fact.



I am certainly a staunch supporter of bio fuels and methanol for automotive and power production uses. It just is not going to happen fast enough to solve the immediate problem. The crop yields and manufacturing facilities for those kinds of fuels does not exist in sufficient quantity to solve the problem. The technology to run those fuels exists, but is not completly compatible with current engine technology. For my money, and for the best, simplest solution, it's hybrids. Hydrogen is too expensive to make, there is no infrastructure, and it's best source is natural gas. I'll take diesel electric any time. Or gas electric. It's here now, it works and it is affordable.



Down the road, as we develope better sources of hydrogen, it will likely make the most sense. Till then, it's ANWR or it's keep on keeping on. No amount of bad "statistics" or old information is going to solve the problem. The problem is now, and the obstructionist congressional minority has no interest in what's best for this country.



Ron
 
ol ron said:
The oil underground/ocean floor is actually INCREASING in volume.

Ron, out of curiousity, what leads you to believe this? Not looking for a flame-war; would just like to understand your point of view.
 
ANWR vote

Around the time of the ANWR vote, Rush Limbaugh quoted two sources in the oil field (not oil companies) who have exploratory proof of the increase in crude supply in existing wells. It's been a while, so I can't recall the sources, but they were irrefutable. Just the new crude fields discovered and being drilled by the Scandinavian countries alone is substantial. We have discovered (long ago) new fields off the Florida coast, and many more in the Gulf. Why aren't we drilling and pumping? The History Channel has run lots of shows on the subject. Also remember, crude flows under ground just like water does. Up hill, downhill and all over the map.



But we are getting away from the subject matter here. Our focus should be on an immediate solution to the current situation. That's oil independance untill reliable, compatible alternate sources are ready. I'm all for alternates, but what we gonna drive on untill we get them? I really don't care how much crude is left, and neither should you. We just have to get it and keep the economic engine humming along. We are at the mercy of offshore sources which are more and more un-reliable. The situation in Argentina is close to critical, and we get a lot from there.
 
OK, thanks Ron. Speaking strictly for myself, I don't think I can buy Rush Limbaugh's citation of some guy somewhere sometime as reason to disbelieve everything we know about petroleum geochemistry - but hey, that's just me. And yes, new fields are discovered from time to time, much as I occasionally discover loose change under my Lazy-Boy... but that doesn't mean its growing down there (dang!).



I do strongly agree with you, however, that our real focus needs to be on figgering out how to continue to power our civilization through these increasingly tough times and - even more importantly for me, because I'm a parent - the even tougher times to come. The reason I care how much crude is left is because the answer to the "how much is left?" question has an important influence on the answer to the larger question. If there are huge oceans of crude down there, far in excess of our needs, then the obvious solution is to drill more wells and build more refineries. If the opposite is true... if we're running out... then the "drill more, refine more" strategy is actually counterproductive, since then logic would dictate that we should be conserving remaining supplies to carry us over until new energy sources can be brought online. Think of it this way: when someone gets shut inside a refrigerator, with a limited supply of air, what he shouldn't do is scream and yell and thrash around, because he's just wasting what little air he has left; what he should do is flip open his penknife and commence to calmly beavering away at popping the lock. In contrast, if he's trapped in a cage... with unlimited air... then yelling and banging against the door makes perfect sense.



I also agree with you that achieving energy independence for the US is vitally important... I'm no happier than you are about the reliability of our foreign suppliers. And so once again, the question of "how much is down there?" is vitally important. If US reserves amount to only about a three-year supply, as all the research indicates, then its just not enough to pin our hopes on.



I'm old enough... and I suspect you are too... to remember the oil shocks of the 70's and 80's. It would have been nice if those had scared this country sober, and had stimulated an effective, sustained, crash program to develop alternative energy sources for the US... we wouldn't be having this debate today. So to, I'm afraid, two or three decades from now my son will look back on 2005 and say the same thing about us. In order to avoid that fate we need a clear, coolheaded view of where we're actually at, plus a LOT of citizen involvement to push us toward where we need to be. I'm guessing you and I are on diffeent ends of the political spectrum, but we have a couple of important thing in common: (1) a complete lack of faith in our politicians to solve the problem, and (2) a belief (or at least a hope) that where the people lead, the leaders will follow.



For much of the 20th Century, American agriculture fed the world. Today, that's no longer true, and increasingly unnecessary, as South America, Canada, Australia, China and India have so hugely ramped up their agricultural industries. So today we in the US have vastly more agricultural capacity than we actually need, and we try to prop up our farmers with subsidies at taxpayer expense. All that ag capacity that is no longer needed or wanted to feed the world is, in principle, available to grow biodiesel - tomorrow - to fuel America's trains, semis, tractors, cars, generating stations, and, yes, our beloved CTDs. We (here on TDR), as diesel consumers, are on the front line of recognizing both the problem and the solution, so let's help lead!
 
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Regarding exploration for new crude oil supplies and/or enhancement of existing crude oil supplies, the Baker Hughes worldwide drilling rig count normally tracks crude oil prices fairly closely. As a matter of interest, here's the worldwide average active drilling rig count for each of the last 10 years (05 data through February 2005)



94 - 1767

95 - 1713

96 - 1841

97 - 2128

98 - 1843

99 - 1457

00 - 1913

01 - 2242

02 - 1829

03 - 2174

04 - 2395

05 - 2705



Of interest is the fact that 2004 and YTD 2005 average rig counts are at the highest level in the last 10 years. So, are the oil companies trying to locate more reserves and bring them to market? You decide... . :rolleyes:



Rusty
 
It sounds like you prolly work in the oil patch, huh Rusty? Thanks for the data... good stuff. Time spent speculating about shadowy conspiracies is time wasted, so its always nice to have some solid data on hand to dispel the shadows.
 
ol ron said:
Wbusa's figures are incorrect. The oil underground/ocean floor is actually INCREASING in volume. That oil is continually being made by nature, and is seeping from the deep deep shale and mineral deposits there. That is a fact.



This is true. There is nothing different about the earth today than 200,000,000 years ago as far as oil being created by the compression of organic matter deep within the earth. But it is a slow process and most likely not occurring anywhere near consumption.



The estimated reserves are much higher than they were back in the early 1980s when I was in my Petroleum Engineering classes at Pitt.



Another potential for huge energy reserves - that are being created constantly - are tremendous pockets of methane gas trapped at the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico and other relatively shallow waters. The weight of the seawater is holding it down so it does not rise and escape.



As far as drilling in America for more oil, we must do this. Not only for the oil itself, but as a political tool to break the control the third world countries have on the oil supply.
 
With big oil runnin' Washington forget about finding any kind of alternative fuel source. If we produced all of our own crude it will still go at world prices. World crude prices are tied to national/international politics. We had a chance in '04 to get help now maybe we can in '08. JIM
 
J&LRam said:
With big oil runnin' Washington... . We had a chance in '04 to get help now maybe we can in '08.
I recognize that these oil price threads are generally driven by emotion, not logic, but I can't let this go unchallenged.



If "Big Oil" were running Washington, you'd see nothing off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts but a sea of jack-up and semi-submersible drilling rigs. ANWR and other environmentally sensitive locations would have been punched full of holes by now. The depletion allowance that the oil companies could deduct from their federal income tax would be sky-high. None of these is the case, is it?



What exactly would Mr. Kerry have done to lower oil prices? What could Mr. Bush do to lower them that he hasn't done?



Rusty
 
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big oil is in Washington right now that is fact not logic or emotion. Kerry is a non-player in world politics. One reason for high crude prices is political fallout from policies of the current administration on the international scene. That is a political fact. It is NOT the only reason world crude prices are high as supply and demand is another player but is also tied to political policies of bigger world powers.

The first president I remember was 'Ike' that used his office to jaw down big increaces in steel/oil prices. He tried and it helped some. Other presidents since have used the office to help keep down big price increases that can cripple economys and fuel inflation. The present adminstration is big oil and gettin' rich quick. Has he or will he do all he can ,as a president, to help the problem of high crude prices or low refining problems. Not likley. Will he do all a president can do to help develope alternative fuels ?? Only if it helps big oil. JIM
 
Geez Jim

You ever read the news paper? I mean the news, not the editorial page. "Big oil" owns Washington? Wish they did. We'd have refineries opening at the rate of ten a year. They would not be forced to refine reformulated gasoline, but rather, plain old leaded . We'd have many more drill rigs in the Gulf and off Florida. We'd have all the idle wells in southern California and Texas and Oklahoma pumping crude. We could tell the Arab and South American Opec members to sell it somewhere else. We'd be pumping from the ANWR at double the rate of our current production. The North slope field ( Alaska Pipeline) that was supposed to be dry by now ( and only contain 20,000,000 barrels) is still providing 40,000 barrels a day. It's been pumping since 1975-1978. The ANWR field will occupy 2000 acres of barren tundra.

Jim, you can't "talk down" the realities of world monetary crises, world demand nor the high current demand. World demand is booming. World currencies are volatile.

Has the current adminstration really done nothing about alternative fuels? Better check your facts. President Bush initiated the first federal initiative and funding to develope hydrogen fuels and their infrastructure. Should the oil refiners be allowed to develope the infrastructure and technology to build the plants to make hydrogen a viable and reliable energy source? Find someone better suited.

Maybe you don't understand capitalism. it's simple. No single industry has benefitted the world economy more than the petroleum, steel and chemical business. It was all risk, all cash flow and little return for a long time.

Why should the refiners not make a profit from their product?

No one has the "right" to low fuel prices. Fuel drives economies, and fuel requirements drive fuel prices.

Look at the bright side, Jim. We could be driving a Cummins/electric hybrid 2500 or 3500 in a couple of years, and getting 30 MPG instead of 20.

Jim, always look at the positive, not the negative. That's the American way.

We did not become independant of Britain by blaming "Big Tea". We dumped it !



Ron
 
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