My First 1st Gen - Trans Question

[MMoyle]

Hi All,



Well... . I finally got my very own First Gen! I pick it up soon! I am very very excited. Its a 1993 W250 4x4 LE XCAB with an Auto Trans w/OD. I have been searching through some threads about lockup torque converters for the vehicle I now own. I want to get the best mileage I possibly can with the truck, but I don't what to spend an arm and a leg on a new trans (lockup) to give me the best results. Some people recommend just installing the DTT fuild coupling converter on the existing trans, but how well does that actually work? Is that the only cheapest option I have to improve the converter efficiency before stepping up to a full blown lockup converter option?



Thanks,

Mike

 

[Philip]

What are your plans with the truck?



Are you going to be towing/hauling heavy all the time?



Is the truck going to be just a daily driver with little T/H work?



IMHO I would drive it a while and see what your needs are and the shape the current trans is in. Each trans is different in the way it acts.



If your only wanting top fuel milage. The cost to switch to a lockup coverter trans will take a long time to recover unless you run a lot of miles a year.

 

[paccool]

I was considering putting in a lockup converter but was told it wouldn't fit without installing spacers between the engine and transmission. Also, the tanny wouldn't control the lockup function so a different transmission would need to go in. At this point I figured there would be other things such as a control system to contend with so I said the he** with it and put in a DTT 89% converter. (I was told for towing the 89% would be the best for my truck)The higher efficiency converters give less slippage when accelerating but don't do much to improve fuel mileage under normal conditions. My average mileage didn't seem to change any after the new converter went in.



With the truck you have, I would guess you will get around 19MPG for normal driving. Having said that, there are some guys that get 23, some get 17. Will depend a lot on driving habits. For me, on the road with no load, 2 wheel drive, I get right at 20. In town I like to use the power thats there and play around "a little" My mileage then drops to around 19 or so.

There have been a few guys that say they get as much as 25 MPG but I could never get anywhere close to that, probably because of the way I drive. If the speed is kept at 55, the mileage will be much better than it will if the truck is driven at 75 or 80. These old trucks are not real areodynamic and the faster you drive the more fuel it will take. By the way, our trucks usually get better mileage that the newer rigs from what I've seen.



I know this didn't answer your question but it may help in your decision. Just some basic info for you to look at.

 

[MMoyle]

Thanks for the info guys. I plan on driving the truck on long hauls (without towing), but do plans to have the occassional towing of a race car or what have you. I guess your right, I should wait to see how the truck performs and make a decision then. Based on what Paccool said, putting in a DTT %89 percent converter did not help much in mileage, but how did the overall change in converter feel? Do you feel less slippage? Are you satisfied with the DTT purchase? If so, what is the best thing you like about it most? Thanks guys! - I love TDR!

 

[MFalkinham]

I wish my mileage was as good as Stan's. My '92 averages about 14-15mpg during the summer, and less during the winter. The only difference between your truck and mine appears to be that mine has dual rear wheels, which might cost 1-2mpg. Also, Stan's truck is a 2wd and ours are 4wd, so we probably lose another 1mpg or more with the transfer case, extra weight, etc. Also, my 4. 10 gears hurt my fuel economy a lot, but are great for towing! I'm not sure what gearing your truck has.



Don't get me wrong, 15-16mpg is still great mileage for an older full sized pickup that can haul and tow what ours can. I just don't want your expectations to be too high. You should expect to see 16mpg, and if it's higher than that, great! But if you are expecting 19-20mpg, I think you might be dissapointed.



- Mike

 

[paccool]

Am i happy with the new converter? You bet! Could feel the difference in acceleration and watching the tack showed less slippage when increasing speed or towing. Boost seemed to pickup just a little but the pound or so may have been due to a temperature change as much as the converter. Can't say for sure



Mike, I had 4. 10 gears in my truck for a long time. The guy I bought the truck from had the 4. 10 set installed to pull a 12K fifth wheel. The gear set failed and I replaced with 3. 54's. I thought it would make a big difference in mileage but it didn't change!? (it improved maybe 1/2MPG) Still get about what I was getting before. I keep a fuel mileage log and had lots of data to look at and compare.



When towing I get around 12-13MPG pulling a 7K travel trailer. Will drop down to 10 if I'm pulling lots of hills. I don't like to slow down going up a hill, like to look for fords pulling about the same weight! If I took it easier, the towing mileage would be better.



Stan

 

[don b]

i averaged 19 mpg canadian ( 15 us) thru mountainous areas with a small camper(loaded). i talked to a guy who installed a kn air filter and he said that his mileage improved by 2 to 3 mpg. have other members experienced similar results? another guy opened up his exaust and had an improvement. fuel economy is my main reason for buying a ctd and any suggestions om how to improve it would be appreciated.

 

[LEggers]

I wish my mileage was as good as Stan's. My '92 averages about 14-15mpg during the summer, and less during the winter. The only difference between your truck and mine appears to be that mine has dual rear wheels, which might cost 1-2mpg. Also, Stan's truck is a 2wd and ours are 4wd, so we probably lose another 1mpg or more with the transfer case, extra weight, etc. Also, my 4. 10 gears hurt my fuel economy a lot, but are great for towing! I'm not sure what gearing your truck has.



Don't get me wrong, 15-16mpg is still great mileage for an older full sized pickup that can haul and tow what ours can. I just don't want your expectations to be too high. You should expect to see 16mpg, and if it's higher than that, great! But if you are expecting 19-20mpg, I think you might be dissapointed.



- Mike

Mike I am in the same boat with you man I even get a little lower but cannot keep my foot out of it. I run an auto trans as well.

 

[bgilbert]

Want better fuel mileage for higher mileage trucks 100+k? New injectors such as the Bosch 190's or if they are true and really have them, those '$300' 185's, which are mainly in the 7-800$ range. Even with Pod's and lotsa fuel my 89 still gets the same mileage as stock pump and worn out injectors at 18. 5mpg. I'd love to think what a less hot injector and stock or mild pump adjustments would do to mpg's. Don't under estimate injectors when it comes to MPG'S.

 

[Lock93]

I get 16. 7 almost every tank driving 75 miles round trip to work in stop and go traffic. Before mods, I was at 15. 5 to 16. 1. The extra power is temping to play with, but it has really helped make the truck more efficient on hills and such.



Going a road trip in a couple weeks, and I'm anxious to see how the mileage does with uninterrupted freeway driving. My previous '02 would get around 19 on the freeway at 65mph. I'm hoping for at least that, or better with the first gen. My 33" tires likely cost me 1 or 2 mpg. I have the 3:54 gears also and auto trans.



I'd like to hear more on why injectors would improve fuel economy. Certain types?

 

[flightmedic]

I am in the same boat as the rest with my truck: Towing = 12-13mpg

Unloaded = 15-16 mpg. Oh yeah thats with 3:54 gears.



The converter question is another thing. I talked with what seemed to be a very knowledgeable trans. guy who has patents on the A518 and he said that there were some made with a lock-up function. Now I queried him and he must have thought me strange the way I looked at him, as I was very specific that my truck being a '93 could be equipped with a lock-up converter. And he climbed under the truck showing me the wire loom, leading to the trans. He explained that with the A518, a 3 wire loom is a non lock-up design whereas a 4 wire loom is a lock-up design.



So maybe they were made in late '93? I have a 11/92 build date so mine obviously would not qualify. And, to further the controversy, my buddy has his build sheet for his early '91, and the sheet specifies his truck came with a 727 with a lock-up converter? Go figure.



Hope I have not confused you?

 

[TKingsbury]

Just thought I'd give my numbers. I get 16mpg daily driving (50/50 hiway/town). About 14mpg or so towing 5-6K, and I got 15mpg out on the open road going 80mph and then when I followed my buddy back at 65-70, it went up to 18mpg Oo. My truck has 6" blocks in rear and leveling springs up front and rides on 35s.

Travis. .

 

[phillips5]

Yes verry late 93,s had lockup. Fiew and far between to find one. I think a A518 with lockup is called a A618.

 

[Philip]

If your trucks are running high miles on them. New injectors will help. Or even just getting your old ones cleaned and pop pressures reset.



I know right now at 150k on my truck I need new injectors. The last trip I took I lost 2mpg. Let me explain on how I know it lost that mpg. For the last 5 years I have made a trip to Oklahoma in the fall. On this trip I stop once for fuel. I set the cruise for 80MPH as soon as I get on I70 in Indy. From years one threw four I got 18 MPG. Last year it droped to 16 MPG. No other changes in the truck. I ran the same distance every time. Traffic was normal. The milage was checked both directions also when I could. A few times I hauled loads back and this threw off return milage.



The few times I have checked milage local I get 20 MPG running around 60 MPH. But not in its current config with the bad injectors.



So take heed in what bgilbert said. They do make a difference on MPG. Clogged up tips not supplying a fuel spray pattern properly or low pop pressures letting fuel in before it is needed will drop MPG's.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

I think the guys will agree that the reason you'll likely see better mileage is because you'll use less throttle for shorter durations and still get your acceleration...

The main issue is "playing aroud". . this really makes a difference in mileage.

My truck was made in ... I think June of 93 and it is an A518 non-lockup system.

You can put a lockup in it but you'll need to control the lockup with an in cab switch and it's kind of a pain if you forget to disengage it when stopping...

I am personally very happy with my DTT system. The difference I saw was really a surprise... alot of HP is going missing on the way to the rear wheels and it is because of the high stall convertor and also a poorly adjusted trans and valve body.

One thing you will find is that the truck will seem to hang a bit until the RPM's climb a bit. The TC is pretty tight and you will/can tune the truck to compensate for that.

You may also want to look at putting a 16cm exhaust housing on the turbo. That will improve your spool-up, give you roughly another 2-3 psi boost and get that TC moving sooner. The 16cm is a great all around housing... it works good for "playing" and works even better if you are towing with acceptable inlet backpressure.



JMO...



pastor bob... .

 

["Mad Max"]

... for my 2 cents worth, when I got my rig at 207k miles it was virgin stock - no mods done to it ever. I thought the transmission was trash as the engine would spool up to about 1800-2000 rpm and kind of just stay there until the truck caught up to the engine... all the way up to 70 mph. I thought the trans was slipping badly and would be gone soon, but after a while I learned about converters etc, but I didn't want to drop a lot of bucks just yet. I had a lot of good luck/history with TCI converters in my gas vehicles including my 74 crew cab 4x4 dually witha big block 413, and so I ordered a TCI converter for my Cummins in hopes it would just help it along until I was ready to go for the really good stuff (DTT). I installed the TCI unit and I was very pleasantly surprised in how much better the truck accellerated and held speed on hills. Big difference in the truck actually getting going and holding the engine power, and the trans temps decreased.

Bottom line - any aftermarket converter will help and you'll notice the difference over a stock unit. But, if your plans include big power or performance applications, including major towing, go for the DTT performance parts. It's not really about going fast, it's about having a very strong transmission that'll be able to handle the engine torque, and on modified engines the torque can go up very quickly for very little money, and the stock transmission's will frag after a while.

There are several threads on different converters and who likes what, but it is generally aggreed on that DTT makes the 'stuff'. I think they build them using parts made of Unobtanium... a very hard, very durable, usually pricey substance that seems to laugh at torque... .

- Sam

 

[csnider]

Yes verry late 93,s had lockup. Fiew and far between to find one. I think a A518 with lockup is called a A618.

This is interesting. . Has anybody done a A518 to A618 conversion in their first gen?... . I'd like to find one(A618) with it's controller/harness... . I wonder if they were/are available new like the 518s were for a while? Does anyone on this board actually own one with a factory locker?..... I'm pulling my trans soon to fix the rear main and I'm seriously considering a different TC but finding a A618 built for a cummins would really be cool.....

 

["Mad Max"]

There is some confusion about the 2nd gen 47RE trans vs the 47RH, and I got the scoop from Bill K at DTT. Basically I asked him to explain the whole process - not because I didn't believe it, but rather I just like knowing how stuff gets built so I can explain it later... like right here:



Okay, if you're going to upgrade your 1st gen auto by swapping in a 2nd gen auto, and DTT is doing the job, it won't matter which version of auto (for the core) you find - 47 RE or RH, both'll work. I thought I needed an RH for the hydraulic activation as I have no computer harness to work the trans. Buuut, after asking Bill K to explain 'cause I was corn-fused, he explained that they (DTT) don't use the 2nd gen valve body, but rather the current A518 valve body from the 1st gen rig (typically the one the DTT transmission is being put into). Apparantly the 47RE's electronics are limited only to the valve body, along with the od. They also use, I believe, the 1st gen trans pump. So, RE or RH - both work for a 1st gen swap. Now, everything is DTT modified, but some of the parts, for the 2nd gen trans in a 1st gen swap, come from the 1st gen transmission - so don't throw it out or sell your A518!



Next, the overdrives: There are 1st gen od's and 2nd gen od's. I'm going to get either a 1st or 2nd gen od (not sure which yet but I think it'll be a 1st gen), fully built by DTT (along with a billet steel output shaft - yeah baby) bolted to the back of the '98 47RE core front half that I'm providing (no overdrive core needed - they have their own), to the back of which I will bolt up my '92 NP205 transfer case from behind a Cummins. There is a little bit of voodoo needed to allow the 1st gen x-case bolt/mate to the back of a 2nd gen od unit, so if you go that route be advised. There was a thread about it a short while ago - I'll have to dig it up. I'm also adding a GearVendor od to the back of the xfer case but that's another story.



Lastly - you will need the 2nd gen adaptor housing that bolts up between the block and bellhousing - it's different than a 1st gen adaptor housing and also requires a 2nd gen starter - good time to get a new one anyways. There are a few other minor adjustments of fuel lines and vent hoses but nothing major.



Well, that's as much about my DTT build as I understand it. Will be beginning probably later this month. Laser Bob at the DTT dealer in Greeley CO will be building my transmission for me - thanks Bob!

- Sam

 

[EarlKann]

Sam,



This whole 2nd gen/1st gen hybrid lockup transmission thing intrigues me. I think that I have found my crew cab and have begun the search for a cummins donor. One of the ones I am looking at is supposed to have a bad transmission. In any case, I know that my conversion is going to be an auto (so the wife can drive it ) and I'd like to put it together right the first time. Care to share if you have any idea what this is going to cost??? Without the gear vendors of course, I'm not made of money



Donald

 

["Mad Max"]

Hi Don -

... well I'll tell you what I know of so far - by that I mean I'm doing the last of the R&D and have already picked up some of the hardware, to include a '98 47RE core (w/o the od), a Dana 80 dually rear from an '02 Cummins 1-ton, the GearVendor, and I already have both donor trucks (the '93 Cummins club cab and the '85 crew cab). Oh yeah, I'm also long-winded but it's usually a good read



To start, the one, single, above all else item that is without a doubt (to me at least) the biggest influence on how well the truck behaves, is the transmission. I also like performance and I like to have it available when I want it, even in a big honkin' diesel. That said, the transmission is where the majority of the upgrades is going, and is also the biggest cost. In my case I'm building a very big and heavy rig, and most guys in here won't need all of the upgrades to the transmission that I'm getting, but I want mine to never frag itself. Towing seems to be the biggest strain on transmission's, even compared to drag racing, because it is the continued long hard pulling that'll eat a lesser transmission whereas a built one won't care what you put in front or behind it, so long as it's up to the task. Enter DTT.

When they asked me if I wanted 'good', 'better', or 'bulletproof', I said 'bulletproof' without flinching.



I know myself well enough, and I'm very honest about it, to know that when my rig is built I'll be going along up I-70 over the Rockies, hauling 10,000 lbs of trailer with an 8000 lb truck, and I can not stand wussing out on the hills - It almost physically hurts to have to slow down :-laf I'm gonna keep my foot in it, flames outta the stacks, smoke blowin' black as coal, cruising up a 7% passing Powerstrokes, going at least the speed limit regardless of what I have behind me :-laf That means BIG power and a kick-butt scary transmission with impressive guts, and a lock-up converter - period, which means 2nd gen transmission with all the bells and whistles. That cranks up the price but not so much that it'll keep you from upgrading, so there's that to consider as well. I figure it this way - if the transmission is no kidding coming out of the truck and getting upgraded, and there's ANY possibility that you'll crank the power eventually, go for the good stuff - then laugh all the way up the hill! Bulletproof translates into billet steel input shaft, main shaft, and output shaft, and XHD 3rd gear drum, to name the biggies.



Okay - next to consider - If I went out and slapped down $45,000 for a new Ram I'd still only have half the rig of what I'm building, and I'll also have half the cost of the new one, and for me that is too cool. So, for me, the cost of what I'm doing is constantly compared to the cost of anything new - the difference is that I get exactly what I want, it will be how I want it, and I'll know how to adjust all of it. I'm learning in the process, and for me that is half the fun!



Okay, that's some of the 'why' I'm doing all this, and here's some of the prices. As well, I have been budgeting for this project for years, all the while learning about and bombing my '93 and reading everything in the process so I have the best idea of what I'm doing, and I'm also sparing no expence - If ya do it once and do it right, ya never have to do it over!



My full-boggie DTT transmission will probably cost right around $6K. The rear axle right around $2700. The GearVendor was $2700. That right there is for bulletproof hardware that'll make Kenworth owners smile, and I can put any amount of hp and tq to it that I want - any. I can haul my 20,000 lbs-worth of toys all day with cool temps and no worries. It's all about the transmission. The rear Dana 80 was also a no-brainer, and it was actually very reasonable, and with it I got additional salad dressing like discs, ABS, lim slip, and 4. 10's, not to mention a scary towing capacity. The GearVendor is for (typically) unloaded 85 mph (or better) cruising, or for drag racing little imports... . or Corvettes. I'll also be able to split gears for big hills, though I'm not planning to need to do that much.



I think a standard DTT trans without the Unobtanium parts is right around $3500? That's really good, and really strong. I'll hopefully be pushing around 400 hp and 1000 tq, so I need the hard parts, but for most rigs that's not required, and I wouldn't sweat not having the high dollar stuff. The guys at DTT will hook you up and thay'll ask you everything about your rig - weight, application, use, power, gear ratio, all of it, and they'll tell you how much transmission you'll need. If the truck is mild I think a standard DTT trans will be great, and it will definitely be money well spent, and only once. I'm not sure how much installation is - labor is labor, but they've done a bunch of these.



The fromt Dana 60 dually axle I already had, but it's around $2000 all dressed up. The engine is getting a bunch of stuff to make some serious power, but that isn't 'necessary' for most.



I'd like to also add that I am not afraid of fabrication, at all. In fact I get off on it. The 2nd gen transmission swap is only a very small part of the work going onto the rig. I'm stripping the '93 down the bare frame - it's going to get stretched, sand-blasted and coated, then the chassis/suspension gets designed, built and installed, then the running gear goes in, then the body mods begin, then the interior, then all of the nitty gritty (fluids, electrical, hydraulics, pneumatics... ) (I'm making myself smile... . ) I can't wait to build this thing... .

But hey, I just want a big ole' truck that'll haul anything, anytime, anywhere, and that's how I'm a'gonna do it.



MAN, can I write a book or WHAT?!!

I'll be doing a full thread on the whole project - should start full tilt in about a month or so.

Hasta!

- Sam