Archived no start, just replaced injectors

[Dodge.this04]

2004 cummins duallie 363000 miles. No upgrades, bone stock. i bought the truck used at 89000, havent done any major repairs, (just starters and alternators and 2 trans rebuilds), first injector replacement as far as i know. I'm out of business til i get er going.

Replaced 6 injectors with Sorenson reman, p/n 800-1968N, plus new fuel connector tubes DSSCRCT 2003-2012 manufacturer unknown.

Removed and replaced air horn, heater grid, fuel rail sensor plug, air sensor, electrical plugs for injectors (3plugs)
reset exhaust valve gaps

Engine turns over faster than i recall, cranks for 8-10 seconds tries to fire, doesnt catch. grey smoke out tailpipe.
have done this maybe 20 times.

is there a procedure to bleed the air out of the fuel lines?
I'd assume that it would just get pushed thru the injectors.

What did i miss? any help would be appreciated

a have an old Nemisys scan tool which may give specific values if necessary

 

[Dodge.this04]

Well, I read a similar post, and checked the fuel pressure (tops out at 1470 when cranking), I probably didnt tighten #6 tube enuf. Couldnt get my torq wrench on it. I removed the lifting eye, but the plate behind it is still there. only had a deep socket that size.

I'm rained out here today and will get back on it tomorrow, will post results, thanks

 

[Bob4x4]

I have received bad reman injectors right out of the box........so if you are confident in your work

 

[cerberusiam]

Replaced 6 injectors with Sorenson reman, p/n 800-1968N, plus new fuel connector tubes DSSCRCT 2003-2012 manufacturer unknown.

Unless you are using genuine Bosch parts this is usually a large part of the problem.

Check the TQ on the tubes again to be sure, either one or more is loose or you have a bad injector. It needs around 3000 psi cranking to start.

There is just enouhg room to get a TQ wrench and deep socket on #6 if put the cocket on first then set the wrench into it. Just enough throw to make it doable. Don't forget to follow th ecorrect tighten sequence on injector and tube or that might haunt you.

 

[JJPage]

I used a 24mm crow's foot for the locknut on #6 tube, it was still an exercise. I know the mechanical advantage must be different between a socket and the crow's foot..

I am hoping that it is just a lack of proper seal on your cross connect tubes, and not the reman injector(s) that are causing your issues. If you achieve a good re-torque on the tubes, and cranking pressure still is not adequate, time to return the reman's.

 

[Dodge.this04]

Today I took off the supply lines and air horn etc to re-torq all 6 supply tube nuts. i found #6 was not tight and #3 also slightly, so I re-torqued all, replaced everything, then my max fuel pressure is down to about (under) 600. from 1400 yesterday. verified Lift pump is working.

so i thought i might have gone out of sequence on #6 so I removed the tube, found no dings on the mating surface and reinstalled it. All nicely re-torqued (Tube and Injector in sequence). Fuel pressure still about (under) 600.


I'd appreciate any suggestions. I.m to the point of renting a truck for a week and getting towed to a diesel shop nearby. I hate to give up but i cant miss much more work.

Let me describe the initial symptoms which may shed some light.

for the prior month, starts and idles fine, take off slowly everythings fine. give her the pedal and i get a ping/knock from the engine and thick grey smoke. sometimes just one, other times rapid knocking and the smoke blots out the sun (Dont want to be behind me in a convertible). so I thought injectors, Friend mechanic of mine agreed. I was hesitant to remove the exhaust rockers and reset the gap, so I opened it up to take a look, and # 2, 3, 4, 5 exhaust adjustments were VERY loose (1/8 inch?) so I adjusted them and the problem got MUCH Worse. Couldnt pull out of driveway. so I got it driveable again, then Hot Set the exhaust gaps (Engine hot, no gap)and the problem reverted back to previous, knock and grey smoke (now generally one only) and once over about 1500 rpm plenty of power til a (Auto trans) shift, knock, smoke, then it pulls again.

'Injectors' seemed to be the census of the mechanics a spoke with so I went ahead and did it. that brings us to yesterday and today.

Any help would be appreciated.

Could the initial problem be the Injector pump going bad?

The shop cant take my truck til tuesday, I'd love to get it figured out before then.

Thanks again

 

[JJPage]

I really believe at this point the reman injectors are the problem. If tubes are all properly torqued, and nothing else has changed...You can test/check your rail pressure relief valve, if it has failed it would do this also. Remove the fuel return line and banjo bolt from the top of your rail pressure relief valve, place a zip lock baggie around the end of the fuel line to capture any fuel when you start the truck. Clean out the well of the relief valve of any fuel so it is dry, now unplug the wire harness from the FCA, start your truck and let it idle for several seconds and shut down. Now inspect the well of the relief valve, any fuel? If so it is failed, has to be replaced (or plugged). If dry, we are back to the remans or a failing CP3... Jess

 

[Dodge.this04]

I removed the banjo bolt from top of the fuel rail, placed tube end in a baggie, detached the fca plug, cleaned out the well with q-tips til dry, cranked engine twice for about 10 sec each (no start), well remained dry. suprised how much fuel made it into the baggie, about a quarter cup. Does that come from the filter? or is that part of the return to the tank. Looks like filter.

Is it really likeley that the remans are stuck open? would one injector stuck open really account for the inj pump to not build over 600 psi?. How would I identify which one (short of pulling all of them looking for a wet one.) I'd think that the bad cylinder would be so full of fuel by now that there'd be a sign like a lock/no crank condition. short of laying out another 3k in new injectors, im considering reinstalling the old ones (which would verify that its an injector problem (if it starts)or not).if it does not start, ?? pump?

I've followed posts here at TDR for about a year and folks here seem very knowledgable. i tend to believe what im reading, but reinstalling the old injectors would prove it. and give me a running work truck to use while im waiting for parts.

is there any suggestion to 'clean up' the injector tips prior to reinstalling the old ones. i fear using like an emery cloth might jam the debris into the holes. I'm assuming there's holes (tiny ones) none visible on the injectors i installed. maybe a bath in something??

Any other ideas would be appreciated. i'll post results when i get em back in.

The shop that i plan on taking it to is a Bosch dealer.

 

[Dodge.this04]

also, can I try to build fuel pressure and start engine without the air horn, and heater electrically disconnected. I'm sure it would throw codes etc, but would it hurt anything?

 

[JJPage]

You need to get the engine to start with the FCA unplugged, that will achieve max rail pressure, just cranking will not do it. Try to start the truck first, then unplug the FCA while running. Do not get near the open Rail press relief valve, because if it opens you are subject to around a 24k psi stream of fuel. Use a small dose of ether if necessary to get started.

Yes, one injector could do it. An injector block off tool is available, not very expensive through Geno's, but you can only do 1 at a time, and if more than 1 is leaking..

I would not start without the airhorn, but the grid heaters disconnected will not hurt a thing, other than maybe a DTC.

 

[JJPage]

Unless the injector(s) is leaking at the tip, the fuel will follow an internal passage in the head to the fuel return line at the back of the head. It will not necessarily end up in the cylinder, or crankcase. Do not try and clean the old injectors, other than maybe soaking them in Valvoline injector cleaner, that might soften up the deposits..your efforts could cause more damage than cure trying to use a scotchbrite pad or similar.

 

[Dodge.this04]

i think that since its only temporary, i'm not going to try cleaning them

 

[cerberusiam]

The return into the top of the PRV is from the injector return gallery in the head.

Something is either bypassing or leaking rail pressure off to cause that. Since it was running before and now it is not it has to be the injector\tube combo that is causing the problem.

 

[Dodge.this04]

(expletive)

I reinstalled old injectors #1 & 2, cranked and BAM it started. When reinstalling #2 fuel tube, it wouldnt push in by hand, pulled the injector, visually verified and pushed tube in, very hard to push in. switched to an old tube, pushed in with a little effort.

I appreciate the wisdom available on this site and thank you who helped me. I imagine some newbies might put up a fight (not believing) like I did. Thanks for your guidance.

I'll post an update when I get the new bosch's in. at least i can get back to work for now!

 

[Dodge.this04]

any harm in running 2 old injectors with 4 new ones for a few days?

test run about 6 miles, lots of grey smoke at beginning, figure thats just liquid fuel burning off.
The initial problem (knock & smoke under load) is gone

Havent 'put my foot in it' yet. Being gentle til the new injectors

 

[cerberusiam]

Nope, as long as it will run smoke free and not make a lot of noise it should be good. It may not be right yet on balance but it beats what you had before.

 

[JJPage]

You stated that you switched to an old tube on #2 injector, did the remans come with new tubes?, if so I would be curious to know if they are 6.7 tubes, which seem to be supplied as replacements for all 5.9 and 6.7 applications. This 6.7 tube ordeal seems to be causing lots of grief, maybe as much as reman injectors. Between the two, there appears to be so much wasted effort and hours, that there really needs to be some clarification as to application and new procedure for installing.

This sucks, I feel for you Dodge.this04, someone ought to be compensating you for your wasted time. Also a good lesson for folks contemplating reman injectors, they are just not worth the gamble. Jess

 

[Dodge.this04]

I wanted to have 'every' part i needed before pulling it apart, so i ordered new tubes, (the old ones looked fine), They didnt come with the injectors.

The description was 'fits 5.9 & 6.7

instead of the two ball bearings, there's one long piece in its place. I'll look for posts on the 6.7 tube ordeal. I'm not convinced that the remans are the problem, (but im not going to reinstall #1&2) I'm hoping i can get refunded the cost.

not a whole lot of power, but havent 'tested' it yet. did about 150 miles today, and other than a little more noise under the hood, and an oily bell housing from an out of place cover gasket, i'm good. (blew out about a gallon before i noticed it)

I rarely tow, but always have about 3k or more in the bed, and it always sits on the helper springs

 

[cerberusiam]

instead of the two ball bearings, there's one long piece in its place. I'll look for posts on the 6.7 tube ordeal. I'm not convinced that the remans are the problem, (but im not going to reinstall #1&2) I'm hoping i can get refunded the cost.

Have to watch the tubes an what you get. When you get remans it is hard telling how old they are and the new tubes do not fit the injector the same as the old ones. You can usually get away with NEW injector bodies and the new tubes but frequently new tubes on the old injectors are a problem. The fact it doesn't fit quite right could mean a bind when you go to TQ them and then it won't seat. Might have some build up in the head that needs cleaned.

You have to TQ the 6.7 tubes to 42 ft\lbs or you just fight issues. Since Bosch still makes the 5.9 tubes it is just a whole lot easier to get them rather than take a chance.

 

[Dodge.this04]

There was nothing wrong with the old tubes, maybe i'll just reinstall them on all 6

pressure at idle fluctuates between 5200 and 5400, at 2000rpm no load about 8100

I'm having a lot more engine noise, is that normal?