Svnthetic oil change intervals?

[illflem]

The million mile CTD in the recent TDR mag had a K&N cleaned at 50k intervals...

 

[amsoilman]

I get such a "kick" out of all this! The facts are:Amsoil has been producing these non-API Certified oils for 30 years now, and never had an oil related failure of any kind that could be proven to be the oils fault!



Would a company be in business for some 30 years and be marketing inferior products? Don't think so!





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Tejas Deezul
Here you go, here is a list of all API licensed oil:

http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayBrandNames.asp

here you can search by different catagories:

http://eolcs.api.org/

Just look for API service catagories that meet or exceed your engine requirements. For example, catagory SG you could use SH because SH meets SG specs and then some additional requirements.
Remember, as Jim Van from Amsoil admited, "The API donut only designates that minimum spec’s are met... " Any oil that is not API licensed gives you no assurance that the minimum requirements are met.

My 01 requires CF-4/SH so anything meeting that or higher will work and meet warranty requirements.

Hope this answers your question.

TD,

Perhaps I'm picking nits, but in this topic, semantics (the meaning of words used) must be clear and unambiguous.

Your first link is a list of manufacturers and oils that are licensed to display the API Service symbol. This is not API Certification.

Quite often in your posts on this thread, you have used the term "API Certified". And I requested a list of all diesel engine lube oils that are "API Certified". I did so, knowing that you could not produce such a list (and, of course, you did not). I cannot produce such a list. No one can.

The reason no one can produce such a list is quite simple. "API Certification" applies only to lubes intended for use in gasoline engines.

As I stated in a previous oil war thread, the Dodge Service Manual explicitly states (in my '98 SM, under Diesel Engine Oil), "Use only oils that conform to API Quality CE, or CE/SG. " It does not state to use oils that are API Service Certified; it cannot for the reason I stated in the previous paragraph. The Service Manual also does not state that the use of oils that are licensed to bear the API Service donut is mandatory; it states only that the oil must 'conform'.

Considering Amsoil's reputation for producing high quality lubricants that exceed published minimum specifications, the trust they have earned with that reputation, and their diligence in maintaining that reputation (by continuing to produce very high quality lubes), I will gladly trust Amsoil when they say their lubes exceed the applicable specification(s).

I personally don't care what oil anyone wants to use. If someone wants to use Amsoil lubes, fine. Should he choose to purchase it from me, eve better (for me). If he chooses to use petroleum-based lubes, that's fine, too.

This thread started out as a question from Doc Nielson:

Greetings all, I have a question for the membership or any visitors that are using sythetic oil with by-pass filtration and that is what kind of milage are you getting between oil changes and do you believe the added cost is worth the investment? Thanks in advance

Your constant harping against Amsoil in this thread is off-topic, and probably should be considered brand-bashing.

I would appreciate (as I think most TDR readers would) if you would stop trying to mislead TDR readers, whether such misdirection is intentional or inadvertent.

Doc Nielson asked a legitimate question, and I believe he received several legitimate answers. Everything else, including this post, is off-topic.

Moderators, this thread should be locked, and all off-topic posts (inluding this one) should be deleted from it. All of the off-topic 'discussions' have been previously flogged in other oil war threads, and none of them answer the original poster's question.

Neal

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by fest3er





The reason no one can produce such a list is quite simple. "API Certification" applies only to lubes intended for use in gasoline engines.



Amazing, guess the "API SERVICE CF-4/SH SAE 15W-40" is not intended to steer you to API certified oil????? Does Amsoil conform to API CF-4/SH???? I dont think so. (2001 owners manual, page 197, "Use ONLY oil conforming to API Service CG-4 or CH-4", does Amsoil have the API doughnut on it's bottle?) The API doughnut is shown on page 197 in the owners manual.





Considering Amsoil's reputation for producing high quality lubricants that exceed published minimum specifications, the trust they have earned with that reputation, and their diligence in maintaining that reputation (by continuing to produce very high quality lubes), I will gladly trust Amsoil when they say their lubes exceed the applicable specification(s).



I DO NOT accept any companies endorsement of it's own product.



I personally don't care what oil anyone wants to use. If someone wants to use Amsoil lubes, fine. Should he choose to purchase it from me, eve better (for me). If he chooses to use petroleum-based lubes, that's fine, too.



I feel the same way and have stated that before, I just think owners should be informed as to non-API certification



This thread started out as a question from Doc Nielson: Your constant harping against Amsoil in this thread is off-topic, and probably should be considered brand-bashing.



Why is it when anyone says a contary word regarding Amsoil it suddenly becomes brand bashing? All I said was that Amsoil does not meet the reqirements of the owners manual, and users have a right to know. Why does that strike fear in the hearts of Amsoil delers/users?



I would appreciate (as I think most TDR readers would) if you would stop trying to mislead TDR readers, whether such misdirection is intentional or inadvertent.



Mislead? I'm not the one who said "Amsoil meets the specs whether it says so on the bottle or not" Again, all I said was it didnt comply with API minimum specs.



Doc Nielson asked a legitimate question, and I believe he received several legitimate answers. Everything else, including this post, is off-topic.



Threads frequently go off topic, why does this worry you?



Moderators, this thread should be locked, and all off-topic posts (inluding this one) should be deleted from it.



Why? Does the truth hurt? What is the harm in a discussion? Do you want TDR Admin to take sides and censure the opposing viewpoint? This would be a sad day if Admin did that.



All of the off-topic 'discussions' have been previously flogged in other oil war threads, and none of them answer the original poster's question.



Neal

It seems to me that the Pro-Amsoil members are the first ones to yell "foul" and want a thread locked. I read every post, several times to look for information, I consider these threads to be very informative. I dont consider this a "war", I'm not making or losing any money no matter what another member buys, perhaps it is the loss of sales that drives some to get irate? This is a discussion, nothing more. No harm is done except some may decide to buy over-the-counter oil and others will buy Amsoil through it's dealer network. Perhaps no one will change his/her mind. It is just motor oil and not personal insults here.

 

[Riflesmith]

I think the reason you get the response you do from some users of Amsoil products is because you are telling them they are stupid to trust them. This is, of course, ridiculous. We all trust every company we buy products from to some degree or we would make other choices. Did we trust in Dodge and Cummins when each of us purchased our trucks? Do each of us trust in the engine oil we decide to pour into our engines? Why is it then that only Amsoil users are stupid for believing the Amsoil Company produces oils that offer good protection in engines?



I don't see Amsoil users on this or the other automotive forums I visit ridiculing people for choosing Delo 400, Rotella, or Mobil products. I see a select few on each of these sites that have decided to take issue with Amsoil for some reason, usually with absolutely no experience with their products. I posted an oil analysis that showed Amsoil products work as advertised. It was completely ignored by the main anti Amsoil flag waver on this site.

It was ignored because it does not perpetuate his argument. It showed real results obtained in a real engine, instead of anti-Amsoil rhetoric based on hearsay, rumor and false accusations.



I have no stake in the choices anyone makes on the engine oil they use. The fact remains I have had excellent results using Amsoil products and will tell anyone who asks (like the originator of this thread) all they want to know about it.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Riflesmith,



Where have you ever seen me call another TDR member stupid? I never have.



As far as your oil analysis, I asked who performed the analysis, you didnt answer, the ball was in your court to answer my question.



I can post my own analysis' with equally good numbers but what would it prove?



I resent being insinuated as the "main anti Amsoil flag waver on this site". When did I say Amsoil was no good? Show me the post. I am not anti-Amsoil, I just think that users should know that it is not API compliant and the warranty requires API oil. See my post above.



The few on each site that you refer to "take issue with Amsoil" are there because of the way Amsoil is marketed with implied warranty and API conformity. It does not have it. Those who mis-represent the product (and profit by selling it) give it a bad name.

illflem said it best, they (Amsoil) should just come out and say it is not API certifed, and they dont plan to get certification. Then it wouldnt be an issue.



But because I say that it is not API certifed I am branded an "anti-Amsoil" flag waver?!?!?!



I have made the point in other posts that I wonder if 3 filters, extended drains etc are necessary given the fact that the engine will out live the truck given OEM filters and dino oil but it is each owners decision what they do.



I hope this helps you understand my position, but please dont insinuate I am an anti-Amsoil flag waver.



Thank you.

 

[6naline01]

Synthetic oil change intervals

Thanks for the legit info,it was not my intension to start a war!

I do apreciate all the help. doc nielsen

 

[Texas Diesel]

You didnt start a war! I hope your question was answered to your satisfaction.



If you want a war ask which is better, auto or manual Then you will see a war :-{}



Three things dont do well here:

auto vs manual

K&N vs whatever

Amsoil vs whatever



One thing we all agree on, Cummins is #1.

I think that the passion you see on the board is a reflection of the affection we have for our trucks, not a bad thing.

 

[WadePatton]

Left out one: auto X vs. auto Y:-{} :-laf

 

[klenger]

Has anyone ever actually changed their mind one way or the other after one of these oil wars?



... and yes, this is an official oil war. Entertaining, but seems kind of silly since I don't remember ever hearing about any kind of oil related failure from anyone on the TDR, regardless of what kind of oil they use.



Flame on

 

[Texas Diesel]

If anyone changed their mind I doubt they'd be dumb enough to post it :-laf



As the PFC answered his sargent "how ya do'in on ammo son? fine sir, just runnin low on enemy"

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Tejas Deezul
(2001 owners manual, page 197, "Use ONLY oil conforming to API Service CG-4 or CH-4", does Amsoil have the API doughnut on it's bottle?)

My point exactly. It says '... conforming to... '; it does not say 'tested by API and licensed to bear the API Service symbol'.

I DO NOT accept any companies endorsement of it's own product.

Cool! Great for you! But we really don't need to hear you say it over and over and over and over and over.

I feel the same way and have stated that before, I just think owners should be informed as to non-API certification.

Again, diesel engine lube cannot be API Certified; such certification applies only to gasoline engine lubes.

Why is it when anyone says a contary word regarding Amsoil it suddenly becomes brand bashing? All I said was that Amsoil does not meet the reqirements of the owners manual, and users have a right to know.

I think it becomes brand-bashing when one repeats the same mis-information over and over, when one continues to twist semantics, when one continually uses the wrong terms, even when the error has been calmly pointed out.

Mislead? I'm not the one who said "Amsoil meets the specs whether it says so on the bottle or not" Again, all I said was it didnt comply with API minimum specs.

And you determined this how? You executed the API suite of tests on the Amsoil diesel engine lube? You obtained the results from a company that executed the tests?

Why? Does the truth hurt? What is the harm in a discussion? Do you want TDR Admin to take sides and censure the opposing viewpoint? This would be a sad day if Admin did that.

Truth is truth. Unfortunately, you seem to ignore enough of the truth presented here. Why? I don't know; perhaps you just like to argue?

... perhaps it is the loss of sales that drives some to get irate?

No, sir. It is not loss of sales; I have almost no sales of Amsoil - mostly because I'm an engineer, not a salesman. Rather, it is the repeated statements of incorrect information as fact that I find ... bothersome.

This is a discussion, nothing more. No harm is done except some may decide to buy over-the-counter oil and others will buy Amsoil through it's dealer network. Perhaps no one will change his/her mind. ...

So why then do you insist on repeating yourself ad infinitum? Once or twice to make your point I could understand, but to constantly harp on the fact that Amsoil is not API Certified is counter-productive. And you constantly ignore the fact that I agree completely with you - that Amsoil is not API Certified and that Amsoil diesel engine lube has not been tested by API, thus may not bear the API Service symbol. And you keep ignoring the fact that *no* diesel engine lube is API Certified, nor can they be.

Normally, a discussion involves one side speaking, the other side listening and considering the points made, then responding whilst the one side listens and considers the counter-points. And so on, back and forth, until common ground is reached, or it is agreed to disagree and end the discussion.


[/B]

You've made the point that Amsoil diesel engine lube (ADEL for brevity) is not API Certified. I've agreed, but also stated that no diesel engine lube is API Certified, because API oil certification is applied only to gasoline engine oils. You then restate your first point that ADEL is not API Certified, or that ADEL is not API tested and licensed. And I again agree, this time that ADEL is neither API Certified (because it can't be) and that ADEL is not licensed to bear the API Service symbol, because Amsoil choose not to submit their lube for testing, while I try not to repeat myself. And you again restate your original point, that ADEL is not API Certified, or that DEL is not API tested and licensed. So now I've gauchely repeated myself and am also directly querying to see if you've heard me this time.

And others have made valid points, which you seem to overlook as well.

So far, it doesn't sound like much of a discussion; possibly it's more akin to a lecture.....

Neal

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by klenger

Entertaining, but seems kind of silly since I don't remember ever hearing about any kind of oil related failure from anyone on the TDR, regardless of what kind of oil they use.

Neither have I. Never heard of anyone being denied warranty over it either. In fact a friend of mine bought in 12 qts of Amsoil to the dealer to replace the Amsoil they were going to dump while fixing a leak- under warranty and no problem.



Aren't these diesel rated oils? CF-4,CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL

if so they appear to be certified

http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0777 and



http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0091

 

[klenger]

I've had all my Amsoil changes done by the dealer. The only complaint they had is that it's harder to fill the gear boxes from the short neck Amsoil bottles than it is from the long neck Mopar bottles.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by illflem
... Aren't these diesel rated oils? CF-4,CG-4,CH-4,CI-4/SL
if so they appear to be certified
http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0777 and

http://eolcs.api.org/DisplayLicenseInfo.asp?LicenseNo=0091

They are not API Certified. They have been tested by API (or its designates) and found to meet the service specifications, and thus have been licensed to display the API Service symbol (the donut).

Again, only lubes designed for gasoline engines that have been tested by API (or its designates) and shown to meet the specific International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee specification(s) are licensed to display the API Certified symbol (the starburst).

API use "API Service" and "API Certified" to indicate tested conformance to completely different specifications. The terms are not interchangeable.

And related to the "API Service" mark, lube from some early production point was tested, found to conform to the API service level, and licensed to display the 'donut'. Random samples are tested in the future to verify continued conformity. However, very little of the oil is actually tested for conformance, so even if the jug of lube bears the 'donut', there is no guarantee that it actually does meet the spec; that is, one is still relying on the integrity of the producer and its processes to produce a conforming lube - this is the same 'faith' we Amsoil users have in Amsoil's integrity and processes.

Neal

 

[RoryTek]

Hi gang, this for Doc or anyone else

I do the 7-14-21 rule and it works for a lot of our customers, here's how it works.



At 7,000 miles change full flow

At 14,000 miles sample and change full flow

At 21,000 miles change full and by-pass.



It's a great system, easy to remember.

Of course you can tweek the numbers to your comfort level.



I use 15-40w in my truck and I have 154,000 on the clock all but 35k of that has been on Amsoil, by-pass went on at 147k just sent in my sample today.



Hey guys just remember " Don't Sweat the Small Stuff"



No wars, just good info being exchanged.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by fest3er

They are not API Certified. They have been tested by API (or its designates) and found to meet the service specifications, and thus have been licensed to display the API Service symbol (the donut).



Again, only lubes designed for gasoline engines that have been tested by API (or its designates) and shown to meet the specific International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee specification(s) are licensed to display the API Certified symbol (the starburst).



API use "API Service" and "API Certified" to indicate tested conformance to completely different specifications. The terms are not interchangeable.



And related to the "API Service" mark, lube from some early production point was tested, found to conform to the API service level, and licensed to display the 'donut'. Random samples are tested in the future to verify continued conformity. However, very little of the oil is actually tested for conformance, so even if the jug of lube bears the 'donut', there is no guarantee that it actually does meet the spec; that is, one is still relying on the integrity of the producer and its processes to produce a conforming lube - this is the same 'faith' we Amsoil users have in Amsoil's integrity and processes.



Neal

Lets reduce this to simple terms, if I read the owners manual and it says "use ONLY oils that conform to API XXX and shows a picture of the API doughnut, I then go to the store and pick up a bottle of oil, brand X, and it has neither packaging that says API Service grade XXX or does NOT show the API doughnut can I use that brand X in my engine (considering warranty implications only)?

 

[fj40charles]

Another oil thread gone down the toilet... Just use what you want since it is your own truck, but don' t try to tell me I "need" to use synthetic (don't care which brand) because it is more "cost effective" and/or it protects better. If I wanted a "cost effective" vehicle I would have gotten a Japanese car that gets better mileage and costs less. I don't buy tools that are cost effective. I get the tools that I want which tend to be more expensive than the run of the mill Craftsman tools.



I live in Texas so the temp argument doesn't apply. I'm sure the Cummins will last MUCH longer than my truck will so to me is a moot point. Just how many of you will be putting on 1 million miles on your truck? I can get there easily with plain dino oil such as Delo 400 or Rotella T. I figure I'll keep my truck for another 3-4 years max. I got almost 100K miles so I figure I'll have around 250K miles when I get rid of it.



Do I "need" synthetic engine oil? Is it right for me? Both answers are no.



Do I use synthetic fluids on my truck? Yes, I use Amsoil series 2000 75W-140 in the diffs and use Mobil synthetic ATF in the transfer case.



Charles

 

[Texas Diesel]

Good to hear from you Charles, thought you had bought a PowerStroke :-laf

 

[redram]

http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/Guidechart2002.pdf



The above link helps explain API Service Classifications.



The API really not really "certify" oil. It has a quality assurance program to protect the consumer from obtaining sub-standard oils. To legally display these copyrighted logos of the API, ie the gasoline "Certification Mark" and the API Service Symbol 'Doughnut", an oil marketer must comply with the API rules and regulations.

"Schedule A - License Agreement -

The Certification Marks referred to and licensed under the agreement between API and the licensee are as follows:

Licensee is authorized to display the API Certification Mark on the following products:"

"Schedule A - License Agreement

The Certification Marks referred to and licensed under the agreement between API and the licensee are as follows:

Licensee is authorized to display the API Service Symbol on the following products:"





The program is voluntary but not free. Some oil marketers have chosen not to go to the expense to 'license' a product.

Some choose to claim that they meet or exceed the performance requirements of the API.

IMHO, when an OEM such as Dodge / Cummins specifies in the Owner's Manual to use a certain API type and grade, there is an implication that the oil used should comply with the API rules and regulations of that program.

If a consumer chooses to use a product that is not API Licensed or of a grade and type that is not recommended, (i. e. using a gasoline only API oil that is not formulated for diesel or a 5W30 when a 15W40 is recommended) it is MHO that if damage could be linked to the use of that product, warranty for that engine could be voided / refused.



To the issue of Amsoil, tell the truth and will all the multi level marketers stop being so zealous promoting / "protecting" your vaunted products. If your oils are not API Licensed, make it plain, simple and in the open without the double talk claiming that they meet x API requirements is misleading IMHO. Promoting the use of a 5W30 diesel engine oil for use in Phoenix when Cummins recommends the use of a 15W40 along with the implication that a Series 2000 or Series 3000 meets/ exceeds warranty requirements to Joe Public is misleading IMHO.



And per the API.org site as of 8/13/03, those products above are not "licensed" by API to legally use the copyrighted logos indicating API CI-4/SL. Only the PCO 15W40 is. Why not recommend the use of that product and avoid all this rhetoric?