Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Truck DOA at Stealer's -- Any ideas?

[wyosteve]

Will try and make this as short as possible. Have 01 ETH/DEE, EZ, Jacobs and 4". Friday headed out to mule sale. Halfway there stopped at Whitmore's in Shoshoni to pick up bumper. Truck ran fine and normal until then. Truck started hard, i. e. turned over several times before starting. Made it to Cody. Shut truck off at motel, again started hard. Dropped off horse trailer, started harder, but still went. Went to friend's and truck wouldn't start at all when ready to leave. Pulled it down road short way, popped clutch while in 3rd, and it started and ran like normal. Had dinner and left truck idling so I would know it would go. Went to Wal-Mart, left truck idling. When leaving at stop light, stalled and would not start. Pulled again and started, but ran rough and had to keep it about 2k rpm to keep going. Rolled thru stop sign and got stopped by ever alert deputy. When I pulled over and stopped, engine died and wouldn't restart. Towed it Sat. morning to stealer, who of course has no one working in the service area and can't get at the truck until today. Other pertinent info, new lift pump installed 2 mos. ago, and still have 14-15 psi at idle. Good fuel flow post filter. Rules out lift pump. No engine light came on when it was running. Pulled EZ and no change. No bad fuel since filter was fine and no water in fuel light. Since it started and ran after being pulled, I suspect something electrical, but could it possibly be disaster, aka VP-44? Any ideas would be appreciated as I'm going to call the stealer soon and get more of an answer? By the way don't even try to call Chrysler Customer Assistance. What an ignorant uneducated b--ch on the line. Dumb as a box of rocks. Ruined what was to be a good weekend since I had to rent a car (dealer wouldn't give a loaner) and had to drive back home with truck and horse trailer 400 miles away. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.

 

[Chace TX]

Sounds like the vp44 to me.

Is it under warranty? Unless you know the mechanic is worth a damn, I would not let the stealer change it either. I know that here at the local dealer, if you try hard enough to convince them they will take the truck over to the Cummins shop and let them fix it. Note, I am not a mechanic, but neither are some of the guys working for the dealerships.

 

[DEZLPWR]

Man, this is scary... . Seems like the VP44's have been dropping like flies lately! Is mine is next? I thought the VP44's on the newer trucks were "new and improved". Paranoia is setting in.

 

[wyosteve]

Yes, Chace, the truck is still under warranty. 71,900 miles. If it is the VP44 (and I'm beginning to think that is the best possibility) it should be covered. If they try and deny coverage, there is an excellent Cummins authorized shop in Cody who I've used before and I sure would take it to him. Plus I would probably supply the pump if I can find one and just have him do the labor. When I talked to the service manager this a. m. , he promised he'd get it diagnosed today before 5 p. m. and give me a call. We'll see. FWIW, the old lift pump when I finally installed the fuel pressure guage would drop to 0 at about half throttle. Don't know how long it was misbehaving, but I have towed a lot. May have started the downward spiral for the VP44. Even though this is the first problem I've had with the truck, it sure has me nervous for the future especially after seeing how hard it is to try and diagnose the problem by myself and unfortunately, I didn't have access to a computer for TDR analysis over the weekend.

 

[Whitmore]

Steve, bummer dude looks like your stop at my house gave you bad luck? I just found this thread so I didnt even know you were dead in the water I wouls say you have some kind of a fuel problem too, hope it aint the vp-44 but if the stealer covers it than maybe it will be a good thing

I will offer my assistance to help get your truck back home, call me 876-2651 and I will be there for ya... ... ... ... ... ..... Kevin

 

[wyosteve]

Kevin, sent you a pm. I should have known my truck only likes to stop at Yellowstone Drug when I'm in Shoshoni. UPDATE-- As of 4:30 yesterday, the brilliant mechanics at the stealer have not yet been able to diagnose the problem. Service mgr. told me Chrysler wanted them to drain the fuel tank and put in fresh fuel first. If they can't even figure out the problem after 2 days I'm leery of them trying to fix it. Plan to call them shortly and see if I can't get some action. Will keep you posted.

 

[A. Brown]

DOA at the stealers. Enough to send chills up my spine.

 

[LAnthony]

funny

I think it is funny that it is a crappy pump cummins uses, when you are not running your engine the way cummins intended. Maybe it would last longer if you didn't bomb your truck. It is a trade off, you get more power, your engine doesn't last as long. MHO

 

[Whitmore]

Steve, keep me posted... ..... good luck with stealer



I still got that trailer if you prefer to have it worked on in Cheyene

 

[cmckinney]

Power vs Engine Life

Doesn't sound like wyosteve has added some undue amount of power to his engine. As I see his sig he has an EZ, 4 in. exhaust and a BHAF. Nothing extreme in that setup so his engine should be fine. It's the VP-44 that's the issue I hope wyosteve gets a resolution to this issue seeing as he has a relatively new truck.

Please keep us updated.



-CM

 

[wyosteve]

Well, the verdict is in. VP44 is tits up! Good news is that warranty is covering it. Another example I believe of how an attempt to cut pennies costs Chrysler fairly big $$$. A simple fuel pressure guage and/or lift pump recall notice may have avoided this problem. I'm sure it was on its death spiral for a while since it's only been about 3000 miles since I installed the fuel pressure gauge which dropped to 0 with any normal acceleration with the stock lift pump. Replacing the lift pump was not able to save it. I don't know about the dealer's mechanics ability to replace the injector pump, but they are at least in an area where there are plenty of Cummins and my guess is they have replaced some before. When I talked to them yesterday about this scenario, the service mgr. said it takes about 2-4 days to get in an injector pump and I'm sure about a day to replace it. Guess I get to drive the Chevy Impala rental car for a bit longer.

 

[LAnthony]

not a flame

I hope that I didn't come across as an a__-hole. I just get frustrated with customers *****ing about how our engines suck, when they are overfueling, and every other damn thing to make it more powerful. Cummins knows that engine is capable of more power, but they think the longevity is more important. And most of our B customers agree, but that engine was not made for a Dodge it was made for heavy equipment. I love the fact that our b is in the Dodge, I just wish everyone was as educated as the people that read the TDR. Good Luck!!!!!!!

 

[GiesJ]

hey

wyosteve

don't know if you got my PM monday or not, let me know If I can help ya at all. email -- email address removed --. I'm in Laramie.

Good luck

jason

 

[lsenus]

My 99 just went to the dealer this Monday. They determined the lift pump to be dead and are replacing it under warranty. Next, I imagine they will find the VP44 dead as well.

See my post:



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=49319



LAnthony,

It appears that you work for Cummins in some capacity. I was wondering what the max flow rate of the VP44 is and whether or not the lift pumps could handle this with out burning out?

Also, I've read in several other posts that guys that have the Fuel Pressure gauges noticed a "severe" fluctuation in the gauge when the sender is mounted directly to the fuel lines. It seems most have solved this by using some form of rubber hose to isolate the sender from the "pulsing" effect received from the VP44. Could the lift pump, being so close to the pump and plumbed with hard lines, recieve the same pulses? i. e. back pressures to the lift pumps?

just thinking out loud.

 

[LAnthony]

good questions, I will make some calls and see what I can find out... ... ...

 

[DEZLPWR]

I think I'll call up Piers and order a spare VP44, or better yet, shell out the $$$ and have him do the P pump conversion. What's going on with all the VP44 failures? It's not just the bombed trucks either. I know of a number of bone stock guys that have had their VP44's go t/u, some with less than 20,000mi on their trucks.

 

[B9Mile]

I think many of our VP-44 failures are related to low fuel supply pressures. That's nothing new to most of us.



On the other side of the equation is the lubricity of the fuel. Here is a link I have posted before. It gives a little insight to a rotary distributor pump's requirements for adequate lubrication.



http://www.bosch.de/bri/bri_e/1_00/a3.htm



Since our pumps are lubricated by the fuel they pump, I wonder how many of the people who have had an injection pump failure are using a fuel additive, and at what intervals.



Yup, I also participated in the "mandatory" Lift Pump change-out at about 46k miles. I have about 74k miles on the clock now. I was only able to find the bad pump since I was installing gauges, and wasn't able to refill the fuel filter. . I don't know how long the OEM lift pump was bad. So, my VP-44 is probably living a short life too.



With the large variances in fuel quality/lubricity, I believe it is a good practice to use a quality fuel additive at every fill-up. I've been using Stanadyne Performance Formula almost since the truck was new. This might help our pumps live a little longer.

 

[lsenus]

I just had a funny thought. What if we were to increase the supply line sizes to -8 or -10? That's what we did on our race cars when we got a starvation condition.

It seems to me, and I'm no fluid dynamics expert by any means, but if we had a larger volume at proper pressure, then when the call for fuel is made, the -6 opening would not represent a 100% flow rate. As flow rate increase, pressure drops.

So aas we get closer to the 100% flow rate of the -6 lines, pressure will drop. But, what if we used the -8 or -10 lines and only get to say 50% flow rate of the line, still delivering the same volume through the 3/8 fittings in the filter and VP44, shouldn't our pressures hold more constant?



again, just thinking.



Maybe someone out there can explain this.

 

[LAnthony]

interesting reading

http://www.bluechipdiesel.com/Bosch-VP44.htm

 

[LSMITH]

I have a hard time believing the mild bombing (325 RWHP) has anything at all to do with the VP deaths. The lift pump failures certainly can contribute, but only when they become a restriction in the fuel flow to the VP. The VP is designed to supply its own fuel, and it does so very well.



We need to keep in mind that there is a mortality rate for every mechanical and electrical device made. I would guess that quite a few of the VP failures we read about are just that.



My opinion.