Is it Safe to Overload

[5erDriver]

I'm looking to buy a new 5th wheel that exceeds my rated tow capacity....my 2011 Ram 2500 with 6.7 Cummins and 3.73 gears has a tow rating of 12,500. The 5er is 13,000 dry with a GVWR of 16,000. Truck's payload is 2350 and pin wt. is 2450. Salesman at RV place and salesman at local Dodge dealer both say I should be ok because Ram builds in a safety factor. Any thoughts on whether this is safe or will I ruin my truck?

 

[rynosback]

No no no no no. Trucks are plated for a reason, unless you do not trust the engineers that designed and speced your truck. Is there some leeway, I'm sure there is. But I will bet that Ram will not admit to it or state it. ALWAYS I mean ALWAYS better to have to much truck for the job. Makes the driving safe and relaxed vs white knuckled. Plus it would SUCK if you got into a wreck and the persons lawyer that you hit found out that you we towing above the trucks specs.

Plus all of the systems like brakes, tires, trans suspension and cooling of fluids are designed to carry certain max loads safely.

The sales guy at the RV dealer will say what ever you want to hear as long as you buy the trailer. Plus he may not even comprehend heavy towing. And shame on the Ram sales rep for saying that it is safe to tow over specs.

Because it can fit in the bed and you can get the load moving is far from safe. Unless you like spotting bats at night. ��

#ad


#ad



Just stirring the the pot with this last image. ��

 

[Cummins12V98]

HA, 13K dry will turn into 16K. Then the pin will be a minimum of 3,200# and more realistically 4K. Does that answer your question? Salesman are out for one thing a SALE!!!

 

[TCDiesel]

You always want More puller then trailer, Since 2014 the 2500 took on new frame design, the 3500 in 2013 received the new frame and DL, this elevated the 3500 form the 2500. if you look at the frames axle tubes Rear DL/suspension, the 3500 is much stronger, Plus the 3500 has the Aisin 69.


Rynosback , 12V98 are correct those trailer sellers will tell you anything, In other words Lying POS.

 

[Newsa]

A year ago, people on this forum were saying, "Just Don't exceed your rear axle rating and tire rating."

Or is that only for 3500's???????

Or maybe i am not rememberimg correctly?

 

[Killgore]

The over-design engineered into any product is there for one reason, to protect the manufacturer from liability claims from the end user. In a court of law, if the stated safe parameters are exceeded, you are on your own and subject to litigation. From a practical standpoint, you would be beyond 'pushing the envelope' and attempting to operate outside of it. I see configurations from time to time that are overloaded probably due in large part to ignorance or a salesman who has never owned a camper or pulled a heavy load and just trying to make the 'sale'. I shudder to think what could happen if anything other than just running down a straight and level road in good weather were to confront some of these drivers. I would not put myself or others at risk.

You are wise to ask your question here on this forum where you can take advantage of the years of experience represented. You will be a lot wiser if you listen to them. Forgive me for piling on, but I have had this argument with myself when buying a camper and can truly appreciate what you are going through.

- Ed

 

[Killgore]

Newsa, you and I both know that a 3500 and a 2500 are two different breeds of horses; a draft horse compared to a thoroughbred. That being said I still think common sense and practicality must be the governing factor, recognizing the stated legal weights. I would come closer to operating out of the envelope with a 3500 than a 2500 for obvious reasons.

 

[TCDiesel]

A year ago, people on this forum were saying, "Just Don't exceed your rear axle rating and tire rating."

Or is that only for 3500's???????

Or maybe i am not rememberimg correctly?

Due to the big differences in the 2500/3500 structures that Should NOT apply, For 20 + or -some Years or so the only difference in the 2500-3500 was rear springs, that just Not so today. the 3500 is much stronger then the 2500 when it comes to towing GVW. plus the 3500 comes with the legal tag for 12,000+ the 2500 9000-12000. Here In MN. the 600 LBS Per SQ inch on the tires apply after that.

The most important factor is Owner driver, I see those 2500 F-250s pulling trailers way beyond the Truck and driver ability. If a serious cash happens and parties know what to ask and look for,YOU had better be legal, BC most State DOTs will launch some type of cash investigation.
If you read Your Insurance policy closely the agreement clause may state if You are breaking the law coverage may be questioned.

You wonder why I mention this , BC this just happen to someone I Know , He was pulling a tandem axle trailer with 3/4 Suburban and he had a cash , the insurance Company paid the for the other parties Damage , denied his BC the trailer weight 4000+LBS more then the door sticker and tires allowed. he's fighting it but I'm sure he's going to loose and legally should.

 

[Dieselnerd]

I hear this phrase so often in RV Parks "Oh it's a diesel, it will pull anything". I've seen so many overloaded rigs, most make the trip OK just because it's actually hard to break something.

Would I ever do it? NEVER! I've towed with previous trucks that were close to maximum limits but I never went over. Even near max loads, handling isn't optimal. I always want to have more truck than I need. The more over, the better.

 

[TJJEEPER]

I think the best advice here is the legal snippet.
If you're in a wreck and you're over limits, the lawyers will exploit that fact and you're going to pay. Doesn't matter who's at fault.

That said, I went over limits with my 06 towing my toy hauler. If became obvious real quick that it wasn't enough truck even though it did the job quite well.

 

[Cummins12V98]

"Oh it's a diesel, it will pull anything"

I have heard this stupid remark so many times! The real question is will the truck "handle" the load??? As in being hit with a big cross gust on a down hill run coming into a corner.

 

[Busa Dave]

Anyone hits me pulling a higher that allowed load I will get everything they have including their last clean pair of underwear! Some people look for this kind of stuff -- pulling an expensive toy hauler for example just tells people I have $$$$$ go ahead and file on me!

 

[spoon059]

A year ago, people on this forum were saying, "Just Don't exceed your rear axle rating and tire rating."

Or is that only for 3500's???????

Or maybe i am not rememberimg correctly?

You are exactly right. The 2500 is class limited to 10K lbs, but your axle ratings are likely much higher than that. If we are talking SAFE, then you are easily SAFE to your axle ratings. Your axle can carry the load and can stop the load, two very important details. If you register your vehicle for your full axle rating, you are also LEGAL to carry your full axle rating... no matter what your vehicle placard states.

I'm not sure what your 2011 is rated for, but my 2015 2500 is rated to something like 11,500 or 12K lbs axle rating. The rear is 6500 lbs I think, which means that Ram has rated everything on the drive line, frame, axle, brakes, bearings, wheels and tires to safely carry 6500 lbs. I would be over my 10K lbs class 2b rating of 10K lbs if I did that... but perfectly SAFE. As long as I register my truck for 12K lbs, I am also perfectly LEGAL to carry more than 10K lbs.

 

[spoon059]

Due to the big differences in the 2500/3500 structures that Should NOT apply,

...denied his BC the trailer weight 4000+LBS more then the door sticker and tires allowed. he's fighting it but I'm sure he's going to loose and legally should.

Couple of things... in 2011 the only difference between the 2500 and 3500 was the suspension. 2013 was the only year with major structural differences between the 2500 and 3500. 2014 was back to both vehicles possessing the same frame, axles, engine, transmission, wheels, tires, brakes, bearings, etc. The only difference is coil vs leaf... but the coils are rated to 6500 lbs and the leaf are rated to 7000 lbs... hardly explains a 2,500 lbs difference between vehicles.

Your friends insurance was denied because he was over his TIRE RATING... not an arbitrary sticker placed by the manufacturer for warranty ratings. 4000 lbs over tire rating is insane! Seeing as to how most E rated tires are rated for around 3200 lbs at full pressure, that is a combined 12,800 lbs tire rating. Your friend was at 16,000 lbs in a 3/4 ton truck, in other words he had almost 9000 lbs of cargo??? I almost don't believe it, but I guess anything is possible.

Just to wrap your head around legality... my last truck as a Tundra with a 7200 lbs GVWR. In Maryland you can register to 7000 lbs or 10,000 lbs. If I registered to 7000 lbs, I would have lost 200 lbs of payload capacity. I didn't want that. Instead I registered for 10,000 lbs, with LEGALLY gave me another 2800 lbs of payload. I had E rated tires that allowed a maximum of around 12,800 lbs. If I loaded my half ton truck up to 10K lbs, I would have been perfectly LEGAL to carry 10K lbs. A cop couldn't cite me... insurance couldn't deny me... but Toyota could have easily denied the warranty work when I blew up my rear axle and the frame bent in half.

You see... that placard is for WARRANTY work, it has NOTHING to do with legality or safety. It is a compromise between marketing, legal, accounting and engineering. What is the highest rating we can give, with the least worry about catastrophic failure, that will provide the lowest number of warranty claims and is structurally sound. There is a reason that Ford was able to increase their tow ratings and payload ratings in the late 2000's without any major modifications to their vehicles. GM and Toyota had higher ratings, so marketing was able to push for higher numbers that were accepted by legal, accounting and engineering.

Ram rated the axles on the 2500 series trucks to carry a far greater weight than just 10K lbs. It is cheaper to use the 3500 parts and de-rate them on paper to meet the Class 2b rating that it would be to engineer a weaker component that was only capable of the 10K lbs rating.

I am not advocating for buying the wrong tool to get the job done... but the OP already has a 2500, so it doesn't make sense to buy a new truck just to take away the arbitrary 10K lbs rating. The truck is mechanically identical, with the exception of slightly softer rear suspension.

 

[spoon059]

I think the best advice here is the legal snippet.
If you're in a wreck and you're over limits, the lawyers will exploit that fact and you're going to pay. Doesn't matter who's at fault.

That said, I went over limits with my 06 towing my toy hauler. If became obvious real quick that it wasn't enough truck even though it did the job quite well.

Simply being over weight is not, in and of itself, does not cause the breach of duty required to establish civil responsibility. The attorney would have to prove that you being overweight caused a collision that would not have happened if you had not been over weight and would have to prove that you were reckless in your decision to overload the vehicle. There are many more pieces to the puzzle here... but some of the armchair attorneys here are completely wrong about this issue.

There are far easier ways to prove negligence or recklessness on the road... speeding, bald tires, distracted driver, some type of impairment, etc. It would be very hard to prove that your 2500 truck, with identical brakes and tires as the 3500 truck was less capable of stopping because the rear suspension is rated to carry a lower weight. It would be much easier to prove that you were likely doing 10 mph over the speed limit, and that excessive speed is what prevented you from stopping in time. You could be 1000 lbs UNDER your GVWR and going too fast and be liable for the collision.

Again... not advocating for using the wrong tool to do the job, but I just felt compelled to point out glaring misinformation and internet myths...

 

[Killgore]

Spoon, that is a good write-up, and it defines the differences between a manufacturer's stated limitations and state/federal regulations while at the same time delving into the engineering standards employed by Dodge. Likewise you touched on the marketing techniques used by different manufacturers. Still, I would use common sense when making a decision to purchase a camper that was pushing the envelope weight-wise or was clearly out of it. A 3500 dually is a more substantial platform as a tow vehicle than a SRW. Yes, some will take exception, but when you need four feet on the ground, it's even better to have six.

- Ed

 

[rynosback]

You are exactly right. The 2500 is class limited to 10K lbs, but your axle ratings are likely much higher than that. If we are talking SAFE, then you are easily SAFE to your axle ratings. Your axle can carry the load and can stop the load, two very important details. If you register your vehicle for your full axle rating, you are also LEGAL to carry your full axle rating... no matter what your vehicle placard states.

I'm not sure what your 2011 is rated for, but my 2015 2500 is rated to something like 11,500 or 12K lbs axle rating. The rear is 6500 lbs I think, which means that Ram has rated everything on the drive line, frame, axle, brakes, bearings, wheels and tires to safely carry 6500 lbs. I would be over my 10K lbs class 2b rating of 10K lbs if I did that... but perfectly SAFE. As long as I register my truck for 12K lbs, I am also perfectly LEGAL to carry more than 10K lbs.

How does your axle stop the load? How does your axle carry the load? It is a mounting point for the leaf springs which carry the load.

 

[SnoKing]

I can tell you that our 16K 5th wheel which is near or it max rating has our 2015 3500 at or near it's higher ratings. That is GCWR, GVWR and RGAWR. Snoking

 

[spoon059]

How does your axle stop the load? How does your axle carry the load? It is a mounting point for the leaf springs which carry the load.

Sorry, I was sloppy with my definition, but you know what I meant... your AXLE RATING means that it can carry and stop the load. Your AXLE RATING is a combination of the gearing, suspension, brakes, lugs, wheels, tires, mounting hardware, etc. The rear axle on the newer frame 2500 is rated to 6500 lbs... that means that Ram certifies that the rear axle gearing can handle the load, the suspension can handle the load, the brakes can stop the load, the lugs can support the load, the wheels and tires can withstand the load and the mounting hardware is sufficient to support the load.

Look at a 2016 Ram in the 2500 and 3500... the 2500 rear axle is rated to 6500 lbs. The 3500 rear axle is rated to 7000 lbs... that is the only mechanical difference between a SRW 3500 and a 2500... 500 lbs difference in spring rating. The frames have different part numbers, because they have different spring mounts... but every other portion, dimension and rating is EXACTLY the same. Same frame, same rear axle gearing, same brakes, same wheels/tires, same brake lines, same master cylinder, same radiator, same front axle, same transmission, etc etc.

The only difference is a 500 lbs spring rating. So yes, it is safe to drive the 2500 loaded beyond a 10,000 lbs GVWR.

 

[spoon059]

Still, I would use common sense when making a decision to purchase a camper that was pushing the envelope weight-wise or was clearly out of it. A 3500 dually is a more substantial platform as a tow vehicle than a SRW. Yes, some will take exception, but when you need four feet on the ground, it's even better to have six.

- Ed

Ed, you are absolutely right. Again, you should buy the right tool for the job. If the OP was purchasing a new truck it would be a no-brainer answer to buy the 3500 so there aren't any issues or concerns. Obviously if you are at the upper limits of a SRW then you should really consider a DRW and a DRW will absolutely provide a more stable platform when towing. But if we are going to be ridiculous, if you can put 6 feet on the ground, why not 10 with an OTR semi? Again... the right tool for the job. For the OP, the most appropriate tool would be a SRW 3500, however there is such a minor mechanical step down that his current 2500 should suffice.

Yes, a DRW 3500 would be better, a class 4 MDT would be better and a class 8 OTR would be best.