Is it Safe to Overload

[spoon059]

Again, I will repeat.

And again *I* will repeat...

And what, pray tell, is the OP going to be in court for?

 

[Newsa]

Again, I will repeat. If it has 17" wheels and tires, then it will have a really low 6000 RGAWR, which does not go well with 5th wheels. So one has to factor is the cost of a wheel and time upgrade to 18, 20 or 19.5" tires and wheels. SNOKING

I bought 18 inch rims mounted with stock Transforce AT's on ebay. I don't regret it. But i will never buy Transforce again. My 2013 chrome upgraded wheels were 17 inch. They didn't offer 18 inch on 2013's

 

[SnoKing]

I bought 18 inch rims mounted with stock Transforce AT's on ebay. I don't regret it. But i will never buy Transforce again. My 2013 chrome upgraded wheels were 17 inch. They didn't offer 18 inch on 2013's

Yep, you can watch them go away mile by mile. SNOKING

 

[NIsaacs]

Well I haven't been arrested yet so I am going to assume that most on here think my load is okay, 2500 pickup and all. The trailer weighs about 4800 lbs. empty, the block is 12k so a total of 16,800, the same as the OP's RV. Yet he gets the third degree and I get a free ride. I would haul this load cost to coast and never look back, yet I would hesitate to tow the RV. It is how the weight is presented and the design of the weight/load. My load looks small but isn't, the RV looks big and is.

Nick

 

[RVTRKN]

Again, I will repeat. If it has 17" wheels and tires, then it will have a really low 6000 RGAWR, which does not go well with 5th wheels. So one has to factor is the cost of a wheel and time upgrade to 18, 20 or 19.5" tires and wheels. SNOKING

Again, my 2004.5 In my signature has 6000 lbs RAWR, the scale wt. posted is close to the OP 5ver in question. Again, it's safe to tow and within its ratings. If the OP's rig is within all axle ratings, it's safe. Should he tow at 85mph and tailgate cars who can stop on a dime? NO...... Would a 3500 DRW be safer? Yes...... But he can still legally and safely tow the 5ver, if within axle ratings.

 

[Bruce Beard]

Interesting thread. I see these things argued all of the time over on Airforums. The reality (my reality anyway) is that for all of the evidence of same or similar mechanical parts used between the 2500 and 3500 models, for all of the interesting analysis about why these parts are used, there is still no talk about software...
In this day and age, I'd be wary of differences that can't be seen too. My own Ram had about a dozen module updates when it went in for service. All software written specifically for my vehicle. In the past, you may have been correct about the 2500's simply being de-rated, today I'm not so sure. Anti sway, anti lock, stability control, transmission shft algorithms, engine torque/power management, brake response and other systems that impact the way the truck drives are controlled by software. Software that is designed to make the truck perform at its best in a given environment. Any doubt? Just drive a new truck! These things are worlds apart from where they were even 5 or so years ago...

As for who might be in court and for what reason, in this country, if you choose to ignore GVWR numbers clearly posted on a vehicle and something goes wrong after discussing in an online forum? You might not find trouble with the authorities but if someone suffers as a result of the accident, you will loose in civil court!

Bruce

 

[NIsaacs]

So Bruce, hypothetical...you are broke down on the top of Wolf Creek Pass in Colorado and need a ride. You know me well because we live next door and know I been trucking for 50 years. You also know very well, this young person who also lives next door. We are both at the top of the mountain, me, with my overloaded old fashioned Dodge and the young person with a brand new 3500 SRW towing a 40', 3 axle RV that is 13.6 high and 102 wide, not over Ram's limits and has all this modern software. Who are you going to ride with?

Nick

 

[SnoKing]

So Bruce, hypothetical...you are broke down on the top of Wolf Creek Pass in Colorado and need a ride. You know me well because we live next door and know I been trucking for 50 years. You also know very well, this young person who also lives next door. We are both at the top of the mountain, me, with my overloaded old fashioned Dodge and the young person with a brand new 3500 SRW towing a 40', 3 axle RV that is 13.6 high and 102 wide, not over Ram's limits and has all this modern software. Who are you going to ride with?

Nick

I have been down Wolf Creek Pass Southbound in my old 2001.5 4:10 gears with a 12K+ 5th behind it in second gear with the Bank exhaust brake doing it's thing. Would I tow my new 16K 5th wheel down that hill with the old 2001.5, NO! Would I do it with my 2015 SRW 3500, YES!

The old 2001.5 was a very capable TV, the new 2015 3500 SRW is in a completely different league. SNOKING

 

[RVTRKN]

It is a well known fact amongst hot shotters (commercial haulers) that routinely haul way over the manufactures GCWR's, and yet I have never heard of a law suit. That is what were talking about, Axle ratings, if they are not exceded it is perfectly legal, if your licensed and registered for it. As to a POV hauling a RV and is within the axle ratings and is licensed for the particular RV, it is legal. In a month, there will be a caravan of RV's heading to Glamis for the sand running season. A lot of them will be way over the GCWR, and probably, quite honestly, they will be over the axle ratings, yet you wont see any pulled over being weighed. In fact they'll blow right past the scales outside of Banning Ca, going over the speed limit as they go by.

I say to the OP, tell the salesman to put his money where his mouth is and let him hook up and weigh it as a combination before purchase.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glamis,_California

 

[Cummins12V98]

I watch the idiots travel to and from the desert with their raised trucks with fat tires azz low with headlights to the sky all the time along HWY 10 in the PalmSprings, CA area. Every so often there will be one laying on their side!

 

[spoon059]

The reality (my reality anyway) is that for all of the evidence of same or similar mechanical parts used between the 2500 and 3500 models, for all of the interesting analysis about why these parts are used, there is still no talk about software...
....
As for who might be in court and for what reason, in this country, if you choose to ignore GVWR numbers clearly posted on a vehicle and something goes wrong after discussing in an online forum? You might not find trouble with the authorities but if someone suffers as a result of the accident, you will loose in civil court!

Bruce

Software is exactly the same between the two vehicles. Both the SRW 3500 and 2500 are rated to tow the exact same weights, 17,000 lbs (in the new vehicles anyways) and it is far too expensive to go through the effort to physically derate the 2500 series truck. Zero difference except for the rear suspension.

I asked someone else (actually asked him TWICE) to post any factual evidence to support his theory of automatic liability in a civil suit. There is no such thing. The plaintiff would have to show negligence on the part of the respondent. Being over an arbitrary number such as GVWR is not negligence. As stated, the Ram 2500 is rated to a GVWR of about 12K lbs (newest models). The derated 2500 is simply a marketing tool to sell a class 2B vehicle with a 10K lbs weight limit. That number doesn't have a darn thing to do with the capabilities or safety of the truck... it is simply a number decided by the Federal Department of Transportation as a cut off. On certain highways, certain bridges and certain secondary roadways they are limited to 10,000 lbs (5 tons) and vehicle manufacturers sell vehicles to just barely fit under that number.

That is the reason that Ford used to sell a F350 with a 9999 lbs GVWR... to get under the arbitrary class 2B rating. There was no difference between that F350 and a regular F350 except the placard reads 9999 lbs. As has been stated, the number that matters for legality and liability is the lower of the axle ratings or the tire ratings. Exceed either of those and you have some explaining to do.

 

[RVTRKN]

But have you ever seen one being given a citation?

 

[NIsaacs]

I have been down Wolf Creek Pass Southbound in my old 2001.5 4:10 gears with a 12K+ 5th behind it in second gear with the Bank exhaust brake doing it's thing. Would I tow my new 16K 5th wheel down that hill with the old 2001.5, NO! Would I do it with my 2015 SRW 3500, YES!

The old 2001.5 was a very capable TV, the new 2015 3500 SRW is in a completely different league. SNOKING

Yes, and I would ride down the hill with you in either truck, but you are experienced, that's the key here.

If you have to ask if you are overloaded, then you probably are....

Nick

 

[SnoKing]

The OP never answer if the truck has the lame 17" tires(the forgotten tire size) and what his plan is to do something about that. SNOKING

 

[Bruce Beard]

Software is exactly the same between the two vehicles. Both the SRW 3500 and 2500 are rated to tow the exact same weights, 17,000 lbs (in the new vehicles anyways) and it is far too expensive to go through the effort to physically derate the 2500 series truck. Zero difference except for the rear suspension.

I asked someone else (actually asked him TWICE) to post any factual evidence to support his theory of automatic liability in a civil suit. There is no such thing. The plaintiff would have to show negligence on the part of the respondent. Being over an arbitrary number such as GVWR is not negligence. As stated, the Ram 2500 is rated to a GVWR of about 12K lbs (newest models). The derated 2500 is simply a marketing tool to sell a class 2B vehicle with a 10K lbs weight limit. That number doesn't have a darn thing to do with the capabilities or safety of the truck... it is simply a number decided by the Federal Department of Transportation as a cut off. On certain highways, certain bridges and certain secondary roadways they are limited to 10,000 lbs (5 tons) and vehicle manufacturers sell vehicles to just barely fit under that number.

That is the reason that Ford used to sell a F350 with a 9999 lbs GVWR... to get under the arbitrary class 2B rating. There was no difference between that F350 and a regular F350 except the placard reads 9999 lbs. As has been stated, the number that matters for legality and liability is the lower of the axle ratings or the tire ratings. Exceed either of those and you have some explaining to do.

Just out of curiosity, why do you believe that all software is the same between a 2500 and a 3500 Ram?
Have you got inside knowledge here or are you speculating?
I know that the transmissions are different and I know that the 3500 makes more power. You may in fact be correct but I'd love to know why you are so adamant. I spent my working life running a European auto repair shop. The software databases I had exposure to where pretty specific to the vehicle in question. My own experience leads me to suspect that there are more differences than you suggest...Of course I admit that I have no inside knowledge so perhaps I'm just wrong.

Some of these issues come up in another forum I frequent. While your assessment of the differences in a 2500 and a 3500 are interesting and have a ring of "probability" about them, people use the same arguments to use 1500 to haul heavier loads than their GVWR numbers suggest they should.
I've read articles about GVWR written by engineers that suggest that the numbers are not so random as you suggest but are chosen with specific performance goals in mind.
Do what you will with your truck, as long as you do nothing to hurt me we are good.I personally feel better knowing that my loads are within my trucks rated capacity.
Bruce

 

[Newsa]

The OP never answer if the truck has the lame 17" tires(the forgotten tire size) and what his plan is to do something about that. SNOKING

I got the 18 inch rims (mounted with POS Transforce) so that
In the future, I could get better ((higher rated tires). I got the tires for about $25 each (almost free) because they were already mounted (and almost new). I really just wanted the 18 inch rims to increase my weight capability. .. and to give me better hwy fuel mileage.

 

[rynosback]

Still shocked that no one has said just put some air bags on the rear with bigger tires. This has always seemed to be the "fix" for towing over your limits. I would not do it, but thought I would mention it and stir the pot.

 

[NIsaacs]

I've read articles about GVWR written by engineers that suggest that the numbers are not so random as you suggest but are chosen with specific performance goals in mind.

Bruce

I am sure there is some merit to this, however, I also think keeping up with the competition is plays a bigger part.

An '01 Ram 3500 dually with a 6spd manual and 4:10 gears is rated 21,500 GCW. A new Ram 3500 dually with 4:10 gears is rated 38,000 GCW. Do you think the new truck is really 16,000 lbs. bigger and better? If they were parked side by side I would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

If you had a fender bender in an intersection with both trucks, the '01 loaded to 24k (2500 lbs. over) and the '16 loaded to 38k ( legal per Ram), who would you blame the most? From a GVW/GCW stand point, I would rather get hit by the overloaded truck.

Nick

 

[Bruce Beard]

I am sure there is some merit to this, however, I also think keeping up with the competition is plays a bigger part.

An '01 Ram 3500 dually with a 6spd manual and 4:10 gears is rated 21,500 GCW. A new Ram 3500 dually with 4:10 gears is rated 38,000 GCW. Do you think the new truck is really 16,000 lbs. bigger and better? If they were parked side by side I would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

If you had a fender bender in an intersection with both trucks, the '01 loaded to 24k (2500 lbs. over) and the '16 loaded to 38k ( legal per Ram), who would you blame the most? From a GVW/GCW stand point, I would rather get hit by the overloaded truck.

Nick

The problem with all of this is that it is nothing but conjecture. Who really knows?
'The one thing I do know is that in the past 15 years, design has advanced a lot. All you have to do is take a ride in a new vehicle of any brand to realize that the game is different today. I am amazed at how capable cars and trucks have become.
What is the difference? CAD design and electronics in a nutshell. There are plenty of other influences for sure but it seems that computers are at the core of most of the tangible differences.
I understand that manufacturers are influenced by market forces and that those forces dictate higher payload/towing numbers but I am still betting that limits are not arbitrarily chosen. My "guess" is that the engineering departments know the weak links of the system and use things like GVWR to help the end user avoid them.

i also understand that engineers have to assign numbers to an "average" group of drivers in all conditions. This makes hard numbers into moving targets.Yes, if you know what you are doing and you are towing under less demanding conditions, it makes sense that you can get away with more.

The other bit of information that is very interesting is that many components of the 2500's and 3500's are the same.

It is all interesting. Better safe than sorry though...
Bruce

 

[RustyJC]

An '01 Ram 3500 dually with a 6spd manual and 4:10 gears is rated 21,500 GCW. A new Ram 3500 dually with 4:10 gears is rated 38,000 GCW.

Actually, the truck in my signature has a 39,100 lb GCWR and 30,050 lb trailer tow rating.

Rusty