Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Better towing turbo-Super B or Phat Shaft 62

[JGoss]

Truck is an 02' 5 speed with Smarty on #9, DDP 90's, Blue Chip Injection pump, air dog 150, S&B intake, and OFE clutch. The truck tows heavy (25k+) and is daily driven little. I think I've narrowed it down to a BD Super B (57/65/14 or II Phat Shaft 62 (62/65/14) Is one turbo better than the other as far as reliability or are they comparable? Twins are out of the budget for now, but maybe down the road. I want something with as little lag as possible, but lower EGT's when cruising. I have to watch temps closely now and back off when needed (which is a lot!) Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[cerberusiam]

The PS is definitely going to move more air than the other one, but, down size the exhaust housing to a 12 and I think you will be a lot happier. Pretty sure the 14 is going to be a little laggy with that big of comp wheel and turbine wheel.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

If your budget can afford a Sliver 62/14... . you won't be dissapointed. This is far & away a better turbocharger than a Phat shaft IMHO. Best turbo I have ever had.



https://stores.myregisteredsite.com...de=SBPS6280&Category_Code=Silver+Series+Dodge

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

If I was shopping for a turbo in that size & price range I'd consider the Stage II Garrett ball bearing unit from Turbo Re-Source

 

[JJPage]

If your budget can afford a Sliver 62/14... . you won't be dissapointed. This is far & away a better turbocharger than a Phat shaft IMHO. Best turbo I have ever had.



https://stores.myregisteredsite.com...de=SBPS6280&Category_Code=Silver+Series+Dodge

He wants a towing turbo... the Silver 62 with a 74mm turbine was the absolute worst turbo for towing I ever had on my CR. Maybe 2nd gen is different... ?

 

[fox]

I had a phatshaft 62 after a HX40.

The 40 was far better and easier to light off with my set-up.

I could NOT TOW with the phatshaft without ALWAYS working the throttle--with eyes GLUED to the pyro.

Be careful what anyone sells you.

Of course what you tow is a question too. 5,000 or 20,000lbs.

I was hooked to 6,000 to 10,000

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

If you go with a PS62, I too would recommend the 12 cm housing. I run this turbo with Mach 6's and a Scheid cam and have never had a heat problem towing 6k around the midwest. Keep in mind I'm not racing anybody up hills. I suppose I'd have all kinds of heat issues if I was using all the fuel that is available.



Dan

 

[KKlingbeil]

I would say it is going to depend more on the gearing of the truck and how fast it normally tows at. My truck has PS 62/14 and towing heavy in OD at 55 to 60mph with 3. 55 gears sucks. On the other hand, towing on the interstate at 65+mph the thing is a rocket and keeps everything cool. You will be a little better off by having the 5 speed over the auto. Good luck!

 

[PC12Driver]

I ran an HTB2/12 (62/12) for a few years, and it works great above 1900-2000 rpm. With a 14cm housing, add another 100-200 rpm to that. Below that rpm, you have your typical big-turbo side effects - smoke, lag, and high egt with any useful throttle with a trailer in tow. It's a great huffer if you don't tow much or don't mind constantly shifting to keep the rpms above 2k for the slightest hill. It's a great turbo for 450+hp, but you'll never use that much hp towing.



The 57mm S300s are underrated. With a 12cm exhaust housing they can comfortably swing a little over 400hp. And the smaller wheels are more efficient at lower rpm, so you'll keep your throttle response down low in the powerband (more power available where you need it for towing).



You mentioned a desire to lower your cruising egts. Any size increase in a compressor wheel or exhaust housing WILL increase your cruising egts, guaranteed. Especially in an overloaded, modded truck. The only way you can pull off lower cruising egts would be twins. I don't think a 2/3 twin kit (use your factory 35/12) would be much more $ than a PS62, and you'd actually get the performance and cooling you're looking for.

 

[JGoss]

Thanks for all the suggestions. The truck has 4. 10 gears. I think I'm going with the ps62 with the 12cm housing.

 

[AH64ID]

If I was shopping for a turbo in that size & price range I'd consider the Stage II Garrett ball bearing unit from Turbo Re-Source

I 2nd that! I just installed this turbo last weekend, and haven't towed with it yet but from the little driving I have done its going to be a beast towing.



Similar air to a PS62, with faster spool and less restriction on the turbine side. Not much more cash for a better setup.

 

[JGoss]

Thanks for the heads up on the Garrett. I always thought they were really expensive, but their actually pretty reasonable,(especially with no HX 40 downpipe) I did some research and I ordered a stage 2 GT3782R. It'll be a few weeks before I can get it on, but I'll keep you posted on how it does.

 

[AH64ID]

I don't think you will be disappointed. . the more I drive it the more I like it. The truck runs so much better. It should have come from the factory like this.

 

[PC12Driver]

Why the Stage 2? The Stage 1 has you covered for hp, and will absolutely give you better towing performance (which seemed to be a primary concern in your initial post).

 

[AH64ID]

Why the Stage 2? The Stage 1 has you covered for hp, and will absolutely give you better towing performance (which seemed to be a primary concern in your initial post).

The stage 2 will spool nearly identical to a stage 1 and provide better air. I doub't it gives better towing performance. The Stage 1 will not be enough air based on his mods. The stage 2 is such a good all around turbo that Tom at Turbo Re-Source (Garrett gu-ru) has never ordered/sold/stocked a Stage 1, and he modifies the Stage 3. . The stage 2 is the ticket!

My cruise EGT's dropped going to the overall larger turbo, the fact that its a BB really helps.

 

[JGoss]

I can't justify spending $1700 and only spooling a little bit more than stock. The stage 2 fits my mods better and will allow a few more down the road.

 

[PC12Driver]

The stage 2 will spool nearly identical to a stage 1 and provide better air. I doub't it gives better towing performance. The Stage 1 will not be enough air based on his mods. The stage 2 is such a good all around turbo that Tom at Turbo Re-Source (Garrett gu-ru) has never ordered/sold/stocked a Stage 1, and he modifies the Stage 3. . The stage 2 is the ticket!



My cruise EGT's dropped going to the overall larger turbo, the fact that its a BB really helps.

All turbos will "spool" the same if given enough fuel. Time to spool up isn't relevant when towing, but how efficient a turbo is at moving air at low to moderate throttle is. All things equal, a smaller compressor will move air more efficiently when fueling is being limited (as in not full throttle). So for fueling in the 150-250hp range (where you'll spend most of your time with a load that big), the Stage 1 is going to provide "better air", assuming that means more air molecules.



Based on his mods, he should be putting down around 350hp. Maybe a touch over. The Stage 1 is rated by Garrett for 350hp. The Stage 1 is also suggested as an "ideal towing turbo" in the Garrett literature. A larger than needed turbo won't gain you anything, but it will unnecessarily take away bottom end. I know an engine builder that ran an HX35/12 in his 400+hp street truck because it towed his pulling truck to the track and he wanted to be able to use all the low-end power that the engine could generate. A perfect example of building an engine for a purpose.



The Stage 2 might be a good "all-around" turbo, but I don't think a guy that routinely tows 25k and rarely daily drives the truck falls into that category. He needs to keep the powerband as low as possible, which the smaller turbo will absolutely do.



As guy who's scaled back from 465hp down to around 300hp, I can tell you that my truck in its current state of tune will yank a trailer significantly harder than it could in its hot rod days. I can shift at 2k rpm instead of having to keep the rpms over 2k. And that's due to the bone stock HX35/12 moving more air from idle to 2000 rpm than the HTB2/12 that's sitting on the shelf.



Unfortunately, your lower cruise egts mean nothing in this case, since you won't really see much of a difference until you load the engine up. A high profile 10k lbs trailer will really shine a spotlight on a turbo's deficiencies. Hitch on to something heavy or high-profile and get back to us.

 

[PC12Driver]

I can't justify spending $1700 and only spooling a little bit more than stock. The stage 2 fits my mods better and will allow a few more down the road.

That's how I thought with the past two turbos I put on my truck. There's a lot of misconceptions about turbo selection on the various boards and judging by your statement above, you've unfortunately fallen for them. "Spooling" is an overused phrase that means little in real life usage, but it sells turbos. And having "room to grow" is also backwards, since adding fuel to a hole left in the bottom end by a larger charger only makes the bottom-end-to-midrange smoke and egts all that much less controllable. Since the turbo on our diesels shapes the powerband like a cam on a gasser, the correct way to build the engine would be to pick a turbo that puts the power where you need it, and then fuel accordingly.



Along those lines, the better question is can you justify spending $1700 to eliminate a good chunk of your bottom-end power?

 

[AH64ID]

All turbos will "spool" the same if given enough fuel. Time to spool up isn't relevant when towing, but how efficient a turbo is at moving air at low to moderate throttle is. All things equal, a smaller compressor will move air more efficiently when fueling is being limited (as in not full throttle). So for fueling in the 150-250hp range (where you'll spend most of your time with a load that big), the Stage 1 is going to provide "better air", assuming that means more air molecules.

Based on his mods, he should be putting down around 350hp. Maybe a touch over. The Stage 1 is rated by Garrett for 350hp. The Stage 1 is also suggested as an "ideal towing turbo" in the Garrett literature. A larger than needed turbo won't gain you anything, but it will unnecessarily take away bottom end. I know an engine builder that ran an HX35/12 in his 400+hp street truck because it towed his pulling truck to the track and he wanted to be able to use all the low-end power that the engine could generate. A perfect example of building an engine for a purpose.

The Stage 2 might be a good "all-around" turbo, but I don't think a guy that routinely tows 25k and rarely daily drives the truck falls into that category. He needs to keep the powerband as low as possible, which the smaller turbo will absolutely do.

As guy who's scaled back from 465hp down to around 300hp, I can tell you that my truck in its current state of tune will yank a trailer significantly harder than it could in its hot rod days. I can shift at 2k rpm instead of having to keep the rpms over 2k. And that's due to the bone stock HX35/12 moving more air from idle to 2000 rpm than the HTB2/12 that's sitting on the shelf.

Unfortunately, your lower cruise egts mean nothing in this case, since you won't really see much of a difference until you load the engine up. A high profile 10k lbs trailer will really shine a spotlight on a turbo's deficiencies. Hitch on to something heavy or high-profile and get back to us.

That's how I thought with the past two turbos I put on my truck. There's a lot of misconceptions about turbo selection on the various boards and judging by your statement above, you've unfortunately fallen for them. "Spooling" is an overused phrase that means little in real life usage, but it sells turbos. And having "room to grow" is also backwards, since adding fuel to a hole left in the bottom end by a larger charger only makes the bottom-end-to-midrange smoke and egts all that much less controllable. Since the turbo on our diesels shapes the powerband like a cam on a gasser, the correct way to build the engine would be to pick a turbo that puts the power where you need it, and then fuel accordingly.

Along those lines, the better question is can you justify spending $1700 to eliminate a good chunk of your bottom-end power?

There is a reason that nobody who knows anything about the Garrett's sells that Stage 1 turbo. It is not a better wheel, the Stage 2 is a much better turbo.

The bottom end power will not be eliminated, probably the opposite. The Garretts are ball-bearing and spool much faster than than journal bearing turbo's.

If all you are going off is their hp rating then you should also look at the turbo MAP, the Stage 1 has a lower lb/min than stock! The HX35 is a 60 lb/min turbo and the Stage 1 is a 55 lb/min turbo. The hp ratings are based on EGT's and the only reason they can claim more hp than stock, with a lower flow, its the turbine side is freer. Why would you want to be pushing a turbo to its max all the time?

The stage 1 and 2 (even 3 for that matter) have the same turbine wheel. The difference between 1/2 and 3 is the exhaust housing, the 1/2 both have the same . 89 AR housing.

So the only difference in 1 and 2 is the comp wheel, 1 is a lower flowing wheel than stock, and the 2 is more.

It's no surprise that the HX35 moves more air down low than the HTB2, but the HTB2 isn't a BB turbo. . its a HUGE difference.

I have no doubt he will find the Stage 2 to be an optimal turbo.

I will report back in about 2 weeks with how it works for me towing a TT vs the stock setup.

 

[PC12Driver]

There is a reason that nobody who knows anything about the Garrett's sells that Stage 1 turbo. It is not a better wheel, the Stage 2 is a much better turbo.



The bottom end power will not be eliminated, probably the opposite. The Garretts are ball-bearing and spool much faster than than journal bearing turbo's.



If all you are going off is their hp rating then you should also look at the turbo MAP, the Stage 1 has a lower lb/min than stock! The HX35 is a 60 lb/min turbo and the Stage 1 is a 55 lb/min turbo. The hp ratings are based on EGT's and the only reason they can claim more hp than stock, with a lower flow, its the turbine side is freer. Why would you want to be pushing a turbo to its max all the time?



The stage 1 and 2 (even 3 for that matter) have the same turbine wheel. The difference between 1/2 and 3 is the exhaust housing, the 1/2 both have the same . 89 AR housing.



So the only difference in 1 and 2 is the comp wheel, 1 is a lower flowing wheel than stock, and the 2 is more.



It's no surprise that the HX35 moves more air down low than the HTB2, but the HTB2 isn't a BB turbo. . its a HUGE difference.



I have no doubt he will find the Stage 2 to be an optimal turbo.



I will report back in about 2 weeks with how it works for me towing a TT vs the stock setup.

Much better? Much better for what?



Or is it that nobody buys them because of reasoning like JGoss's? Like the HTBG/12, which is a great little turbo and can handle 400+ with no problem, but most folks, including myself at the time, figure that spending the little extra to get a "better" turbo is the smart thing. Even against the advice of a friend that had one working well on a 420hp big-tired automatic that towed. I'd probably still have the 'BG on my truck if that was the one I had originally bought.



You have to get off the "spool faster" thing. Good towing characteristics have little to do with how fast the turbo accelerates. The balance of the aerodynamic load between the compressor and the turbine is what counts. The drag from the larger wheel effectively robs some of the power available from the system (more drag with same input energy = less actual work being done, meaning not as much air can be pumped). The smaller wheels can transfer more of the exhaust energy into intake energy, because they don't waste as much due to drag. This is, of course, providing that both turbos being compared are still within their map. Where the larger compressors gain the advantage is when the smaller ones run out of their map and superheat the air charge. If the turbo is maxed out and the egts are still going up (like around 32psi with the HX35/12), then a larger turbo will probably do you some good. If you're not hitting 32psi and egts are an issue, then a larger turbo probably won't help.



I've seen the map, and they both look to max out right around 58ppm. That only shows one part of the equation though. Turbines and exhaust housings aren't factored in, so you really have no idea how they'll actually work on the actual engine. There isn't anything on that map that tells us how it works on a mildly tuned truck that tows heavy. And maybe its rated higher than the stocker because the turbine side is less restrictive, or maybe because the stocker needs to be wastegated to maintain a lower psi to stay in its map, thus causing the pressure delta to go way negative?



Having a turbo that is already online and responsive vs. having to goose the throttle or downshift to light it up is the key to a good towing turbo, and that's accomplished with a turbo that's sized close to stock. At least that's what I've found out over the past 8 years or so of experimenting anyway. YMMV. Do let us know how yours works for you.



And out of curiosity, if you haven't towed with it yet, how can you recommended the Stage 2 as a good towing turbo?