Here I am

Buying '78 Lil Red Express Truck

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Stellantis, 520-HP twin-turbo, Hurricane engine

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Hey Ron, please don’t overdo it! Good luck with the imaging coming up.
Re the ammeter, I knew the older muscle era and late 70’s cars had real problems with ammeters melting, but not the trucks. The fix was to just jump it out and add a voltmeter if desired.
That Lucas smoke jar is awesome.
 
Friends,

By the time I break out the separate battery feeds, the only components left in series are the battery, the alternator, and the ammeter. the voltmeter and the other battery legs will be on parallel. I could see the charging/ discharging status of the battery.

What do y'all think about this configuration?

EDIT: I haven't included ALL the details but this is what i'm working on. First is ROUGH current OEM diagram:

Amp meter OEM.JPG

Here is modified diagram. No more high current circuits in the cab, EXCEPT for the battery charging circuit. Note the volt meter added.

Amp meter modified.jpg


The only circuits saw with apparent heat damage at connectors are the ac/heater and the headlights.

Thanks, as always, for your opinions and recommendations.

Cheers, Ron
 
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Ron,
My old analog brain is having a tough time remembering the issues with voltage readings in parallel with the ammeter. Is there sufficient resistance across the ammeter to get a good voltage reading? And, will your voltage reading be negative when the current goes negative on the ammeter? I think the ground for the voltmeter should be chassis ground.

On edit: Comprehension of old analog brain... I see that your schematic and explanation make sense now that I re-read and followed your schematic. You will not have any negative flow through the ammeter. Silly old me.

My experience with this series of trucks has shown the fuse panel, bulkhead connector main power, heater fan motor and switch, and light switch are the weak points. I have not seen any ammeter or instrument roasting. The fuse contacts were weak, heavily tin plated, creating a high resistance and resulting heat which, over time, created a meltdown of connections and wiring. Tightening up, or better yet, replacing the poor connections is the best permanent cure.
 
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Ron,
My old analog brain is having a tough time remembering the issues with voltage readings in parallel with the ammeter. Is there sufficient resistance across the ammeter to get a good voltage reading? And, will your voltage reading be negative when the current goes negative on the ammeter? I think the ground for the voltmeter should be chassis ground.
I am thinking the same for chassis ground
 
Ron,
My old analog brain is having a tough time remembering the issues with voltage readings in parallel with the ammeter. Is there sufficient resistance across the ammeter to get a good voltage reading? And, will your voltage reading be negative when the current goes negative on the ammeter? I think the ground for the voltmeter should be chassis ground.

I am thinking the same for chassis ground

Thanks, great thinking. I believe the Amp meter will read whichever direction current flows and the voltmeter will still read voltage, if present. If discharging, the voltmeter would read less than 12VDC, depending upon load? Does this seem logical? I may need to pull my old basic electronics books out to see what the affect on the amp meter and voltmeter readings with three or four parallel battery feed circuits. I haven't worked with this level of analyzing circuits since 1982, after which, I was a communications planner/project manager.

Hoping one of y'all electronics geeks can spot me on this.

Cheers, Ron
 
Friends,

All I needed to do is look in my handy-dandy OEM Service Manual for the answer on how to connect the factory volt meter with the factory ammeter. Here is the schematic with the answer:

Volt-Ammeter.JPG


Since I'm down for a bit, I'll study the electrical in preparation for actually performing the work.

Cheers, Ron
 
Hi guys. Sorry but I was distracted yesterday.
I agree with the diagram in #190. I also believe the more gauges, the better, and I always liked the idea of a ammeter on a dash.
That said, I started to remember my marine experience, and the fleet of trash skimmer boats NYC once operated. In this design, there was a split 12 VDC and 24 VDC systems. Both of these systems had ammeters, but the meters were run off a shunt. The shunt was where you’d hook up the ammeter in any situation, but the terminals had #10 screw posts on the lugs, where the wires would run up to the wheelhouse, and the meter was wired in. It was an excellent setup.
Has anyone ever seen a setup like this?
 
Yep use them all the time in our world they provide a pretty exact voltage drop for testing, ours for example are like 100A = 100mv, 1A=100mv or .1A = 100mv..........

IMG_20190918_061106.jpg


Pretty much the easiest way to get the DC current readings in line. Then you get a meter with the same output and change the scale face on the meter.

So the meter would be 0-100mv input, and would have readings on the front scale like a 0-10 scale, 0-100 scale, our scales pop off in most cases.

Looks like a Marine shunt 100A to 50mv, is like $38, there is a note on the page....

For continuous operation, it is recommended that shunts not to be run at more than 2/3 (66%) the rated current under normal conditions

Screenshot_20190918-061956_Chrome.jpg
 
Big trucks use a shunt for the ammeter where it was just plain scary to run the amperage through the ammeter gauge in the dash.
I will check today and see how much one is, and also who makes it. Stewart Warner I think..

Edit...just noticed the posts above, we are all on the same page with this..
 
Friends,

The shunt would be easy if I keep the battery feed leads intact for all the current to flow through one leg, but if I break up the circuits as I've been wiring the new fuse panel, it will effectively create parallel legs, which if I'm correct will short the system. I may have to see if I can replace the ammeter with the volt meter in the dash

Happy to hear any suggestions on how to keep the factory ammeter with breaking up the battery legs.

I'm working on updating a wiring diagram to reflect new individual circuits with the new fuse panel.

Thanks friends,

Ron
 
Ron,

Just an idea, having the full charging system wiring diagram might be helpful but here goes.

Ignore all circuits but one. Put the shunt in/on the alternator output, only. Would this show if the ALT was keeping up with vehicle electrical load?

More ideas needed folks, DC isn't my day job, heck I don't have a day job!

Gary
 
Ron,

Just an idea, having the full charging system wiring diagram might be helpful but here goes.

Ignore all circuits but one. Put the shunt in/on the alternator output, only. Would this show if the ALT was keeping up with vehicle electrical load?

More ideas needed folks, DC isn't my day job, heck I don't have a day job!

Gary

Thanks! Here is the current wiring diagram and I'm starting to create a modified one now.

20190825_122356.jpg

Cheers, Ron
 
Ron,

A little bit challenging to see real clear but it looks like that is exactly what A1A/6BK is doing direct from ALT to ammeter.

What say you?

Gary
 
Wayne,

Thanks. I'm making my head hurt trying to figure our if I'm going to keep the plan I have to break up all the OEM electric circuits with the new fuse panel, or repair the existing wiring configuration and connect it to the new fuse panel. The first choice greatly reduces high current circuits in the cab, but I believe it effectively makes the amp meter inoperative. The latter choice keeps the high current circuits, which means running high current through the dash. The amp meter looks in good shape, and although signs of heat damage on the headlamp and blower motor circuits, nor other heat damage noted.

I read a thread in a Ramcharger website where there were tips to make amp meter work, but a few on that site and on the Dodge Connection website where it's recommended to remove the wiring to it and more or less abandon it in place.

i got up early today, got a brace for my ankle and had a CT scan so Dr can let me know if there is an issue. Per prior direction from him, I was doing som walking on it with air cast on, but he dialed me back Monday to know more than 25lbs on it. So, for now, no more work on the LRE. Tomorrow, I'm going to start drawing up the new wiring diagram.

Thanks for all the support,

Cheers, Ron
 
Ron,
I have donned my Nomex in preparation for my response and opinions. I am sure it will probably open lots of opposing or alternate dialog.
Anyway, in my opinion and experience you should address the areas where you have observed the excess heat. You have the proper equipment and skills to overcome the factory deficient splices and crimps. Do not use the cheap PVC insulated connectors. Buy the good ones, preferably with the nylon & heat shrink. Clean up (cut out) any wiring that has been exposed to the excess heat. The addition of the new fuse block will eliminate most of the heat affected wiring. The headlights and heater fan circuits can be addressed individually. The ammeter should be checked for a good, tight connection on both terminals. Don't get too aggressive here as the plastic is delicate...just nice and snug. If it has the slip on connector just crimp the connector enough for a good, tight contact. Sounds like yours is OK.
The main power line at the bulkhead connector is a challenge as the plastic block as well as the spade connectors are usually melted beyond repair. I have drilled out enough to run a proper heavy gauge wire through the cavity with a properly sized butt connector for union. On some I have silver soldered, or used regular solder then used overlapping layers of heat shrink on splices as well as crimping on others. It is your choice, but I have found using the right tools and connectors that a good crimp and high quality connectors with built in seal (heat shrink) makes the job quicker and lasts just as long, without the potential detrimental use of high heat and corrosive flux effects in the long term.
I am very anal about having functional equipment in my vehicles; if it came with the vehicle it BETTER WORK. I will order anything that will help monitor the important functions to me, going as far as adding stuff if the factory didn't offer. (Hey, never too many instruments; just look at a BUFF's instrument panel, or the flight engineer's station on a C-97. Always room for more...;):D)
I have concern about separating the circuitry in your plan as it causes the ammeter to no longer function as a system monitor. Yeah, the Mopar ammeters seem to flop around a lot, show hardly, if any charge at idle, but they do work as advertised. Where is the field signal for the alternator going to come from. How about the power for the voltage regulator. Will it be stable and adjust for usage, or will it be affected by a serial tap within one of the new paralleled circuits.
The BIGGEST concern I see is the use of the new power feed to supply the new fuse panel. You have a 40 amp quick reset circuit breaker. Are you sure 40 amp will suffice? If you add all of the available fuses maximum amperage the original fuse panel has listed you will find you are way under rated on your CB. Picture yourself having a great time running down the road at night in a heavy rain in the cold Texas winter, high beams on, wipers on high, defrost fan on high, optional fog or running lights assisting, and you unexpectedly come upon a tight corner, and tap your brakes. That brake tap may exceed your circuit breaker and quickly shut down the fuse pane circuits. This includes your ability see with the now darkened headlights, the wipers quit wiping, the ignition quits supplying sparks, the engine stumbles, the power steering gets hard (Armstrong steering mode), the brakes get to two footed operation, the pucker factor has exceed the fun factor...all due to a second or so of power interruption. Of course this may not happen, but with my luck, I wouldn't want to risk it.
With all of that said, I would attach the fuse panel in the same position as the old one. This would keep the ammeter working, address the overheated wiring that occurred over the years, allow you to upgrade your instrumentation, and keep you safer. You can split the circuits at the new fuse panel if you think you need to, but I would try updating in small steps by following the KISS principle and split from there IF excess heat is detected in any of the circuits.
Note: The heater fan motor is the usual cause for high current draw, which will kill the fan resistor and fan switch.
Ducking into the foxhole. Open for comments.
 
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