Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) dealership claims injector pump timing failure but have good lift pump pressure

[DLineberrys]

Well mopartech, this is tater_chip trying to get a fast lesson in Diesel mechanics - so I may not get it all right in that department, but yes they should replace it because it only makes sense. In the long run though, like I said, we could be up the creek. It was going to be hard enough as it stood now doing a VP44 change-out. We have been lucky to be in an understanding campground during this ordeal. Most will not allow any repairs whatsoever. But hopefully someone else will get what they should do to your input.

 

[DLineberrys]

Oh by the way - this dealer has only a handful of trucks - all mostly diesels and to quote service dude they "deal with this all the time. " Actually your point made me get out our warranty again to see exactly what fuel pumps were listed under. They are of course listed under the general heading "Diesel Engine Medium Duty Trucks" but there are two divisions afterward: Short-term emission control system defects warranty and long-term emission control system defects warranty. On page 17 it says the fuel pump is a long-term emission related part. Short term emission related parts are any parts which can effect emissions. Now in our addendum [7 year/ 100,000 mile] warranty they get very specific about what is covered. Everything is spelled out. Only the injector pump is listed, not the "transfer pump" as Dodge calls it. BUT if it were considered a "fuel pump" on page 17, it would be covered on us right now since we are under 70,000 miles.

 

[DLineberrys]

We Get the call from Dodge

Bucksnort is ready to be picked up. We are getting ready to go and get him. HOWEVER: ramblin_man asks service dude about the flow check [because he is not telling him about it and is ready to get off the phone]. He tells us we need to replace the lift pump because when the truck is at idle, the pressure is 10 psi. When you push on the fuel petal, the pressure goes up. That makes no sense to us. We thought that pushing on the accelerator causes a drop in pressure, not an increase? Plus we asked for a flow test not a pressure test. [What happened to service dude's emphatic ramblings about "its the flow" - they didn't even do what they went on and on about when they thought they they were going to get $4000. 00!] We need to know if we are OK to drive until we can get the aftermarket lift pump. We are up against labor day weekend and have to make arrangements which is always a pain in the *** for a full-timer [all the vacationeers book up camps way in advance]. We are going to have to do a test all on our own sounds like because who can trust what in the world these people are saying!But at least we have the injector pump replaced - let's pray that is at least true.

 

[fox]

You have caught on to the double speak from the dealers!!!

They only train thier people to sell parts.

If a system has 10 lbs pressure with one pump, then it is replaced witha different pump, and the pressure is less, there can only be LESS FLOW.

your pump will be ok with 10 psi. If it drops below 5 psi at load, then you need to be concerned.

Also, don't do any full throttle runs, and suddenly lift the throttle to let it go to idle. This limits the cooling/lubing flow in the VP. Very critical on a new pump.

My dealer told me I had a V-10 diesel, and to not ever tow in OD. If I did it would void the warrantee. Also was told this trans is the EXACT same as used in the V-6 Dakota!!! I asked it it would bolt up and was told yes, we do it all the time!!!

( of course I knew different). I knew more about my truck when I ordered it than the salesman and service department.

So, getting the facts HERE is great access to info.

 

[LowFly]

Ya know..... Pressure is the measurement of resistance against flow. The 2 are inversely related. The more you resist the flow in a system, the higher your pressure. If you have excess flow over injection pump demand, your pressure will not drop and stay solid or only drop a couple PSI.



More or less... . if you have good pressure under load, you should have good flow.

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Daniel & Toni,

I would recommend ordering a Westach 30psi fuel gauge and tapped banjo fitting from Geno's Garage. If you really want to be sure you have sufficient psi order it 2 day UPS and you will have it Friday.

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[AllianceDiesel]

you want a pressure test on a out of tank pump, but you want a flow test on the in-tank pumps.

 

[DLineberrys]

Snake dealership does the warranty work but tries to rip us out of future warranty

Hey everyone here is the update on what happened today when we went to go pick up Bucksnort: All is fine as far as the injector pump goes - a major victory. However the dealership was in true snake form. Service dude first of all tries to rip us for another $100. 00 for the deductible. We state that we have already paid $103. 78 for the diagnosis which is covered under warranty and THEY OWE US $3. 78. No arguement - he knew it, was just trying to get away with what he could. Secondly they wrote up a "new" customer "statement" which was not true. I did not catch this till we got home. Our initial write up for the diagnosis stated: "vehicle blows alot of smoke and lacks power on acceleration. " THE NEW STATEMENT READ AS FOLLOWS: "vehicle runs rough and dies. Cause: Replaced Fuel Injection Pump [customer declined transfer pump replacement]" I believe that this was purposeful deception meant to deny warranty work in the future.



I asked service dude again for the paperwork on the fuel pressure test. He had none. I said I wanted a write up on our paperwork. All I could get out of him was for him to write: "on acceleration 10 psi" now he did not note that it was associated with our transfer pump..... something I should have forced him to do and to initial it - but I did not unfortunately! He also lied to me and said that it was actually falling below 5psi on acceleration. I believe he told me this to scare me and it is probably going to be in their report to Dodge.



So we had to go and get a second opinion on the fuel pressure test because they were such snakes about all of this. Another RVer emailed us that Alpine Offroad & Performance did diesel modifications and they were trustworthy. So we went there. They did a pressure test on our lift pump. We were getting 12 psi on idle and 10psi on acceleration to around 1800 rpms. We really need to get a more accurate pressure pump - our is a 100psi gauge, so you kind of have to guess at it.



At any rate, while we were there they did try to sell us on a FASS 95 Series with EM-100 for $650. 00 plus labor which would = $988. 00 out the door. Now what he said was that despite having enough pressure, the problem is fuel-air mixture entering the injector pump. The air brings down the flow despite good pressure. The FASS takes care of that. He claimed we would get better mileage - 2-3mpg. He also recommended some Juice something or another which would gauge all that can be gauged on our truck and due to a chip we could change driving modes from regular to tow and stuff like that. No price quote. The filters on FASS are suppose to be easy to change, readily available at truckstops and last a long time between changes. The FASS is suppose to have a lifetime warranty.



Alpine Offroad & Performance indicated that our injector pump most likely failed due to fuel-air mixture and lack of lubrication. They said that diesel no longer has sulfur in it, and you must use additive otherwise your injector pump will die and that many 98's -02's have died from the stupid fuel. We had no idea we were suppose to be adding a lubricant to our fuel. He sold us "FlashLube" Diesel Conditioner - 1 liter for $32. 00. Is this a good price for this stuff? We will have to order FlashLube. Are there any other good lubricants out there that are readily available and don't cost so much? We have always been using Cetane Boost every other fill up, but Alpine said that was not helping.



Our question is - is the FASS system and others like Airdog, etc. really worth all that money? Blue Chip says that the newer versions of the lift pump we have are adequate. We would like to hear back on this because we have no experience to go on: Do you think that we are safe to tow with our current lift pump's performance? Or should we stay and get a better pressure gauge installed - or just get another lift pump from Blue Chip or flush the old lift pump designs for a system like FASS? Is what has been quoted us a good deal or not? And what about this diesel conditioner?



We have got to get a gameplan together. The tow question is crucial. Must make arrangements for campgrounds - tomorrow is our deadline to make that decision.



Oh - don't get me wrong. I do need to put in a horray at least we got another injector pump. I am just so exhausted from this stupid dealership, I need a drink!

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

As long as you have a fuel pressure gauge tapped into the fuel inlet at the VP you will know whether or not the lift pump is adequate. A reading of 5 psi or less at any time (as long as the filter is not clogged) means it is time for a new lift pump. Before you get to that point do research on lift pump replacement options, including initial cost, install requirements, replacement filter cost, reputation of company to stand behind the warranty, etc. , so you will have a plan of action.

The air-in-fuel thing that Alpine mentions is in fact true: there is air in fuel! To say that it decreases the life of the injection pump is another matter. A 2 or 3 mpg increase? Nada! Having installed both FASS and AirDog I will tell you that the engine is noticeably quieter at idle. The main benefit of such an expensive (compared to a lift pump from Cummins) is longevity. I have 317,000 on my AirDog and the only thing I have ever done is change filters (which last many more miles than the stock filters) and my psi never drops below 19 until the filter starts to get clogged. I will also add the AirDog filters, even the 2 micron which I highly suggest, are much less expensive than the factory filter or FASS filters. I did install a FASS on a customer truck but will never do so again. Not bashing FASS here, I simply prefer and recommend AirDog based on my experiences with both.

There are lots of options for add on power boxes or downloaders. It depends on what you want to do with the truck. Most will give a mpg increase of 10% or so (after the FUN factor wears off!).

Nuff for now...

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[FLynes]

..... Now what he said was that despite having enough pressure, the problem is fuel-air mixture entering the injector pump. The air brings down the flow despite good pressure. The FASS takes care of that. He claimed we would get better mileage - 2-3mpg.

Toni, stay away from this scheister!!!! Yes, the Airdog is a great system... I cannot speak for FASS, as I have never owned one, but the two do the same thing, they do separate air from fuel. Will you get 2-3 MPG more? No frigging way. I had the AirDog installed on my '01 3500 in February and I can tell you that my MPG never went up.

. . He also recommended some Juice something or another which would gauge all that can be gauged on our truck and due to a chip we could change driving modes from regular to tow and stuff like that. No price quote. The filters on FASS are suppose to be easy to change, readily available at truckstops and last a long time between changes. The FASS is suppose to have a lifetime warranty.

So they're trying to sell you an Edge product, which is a tuner to modify your fuel and timing... you don't need it; you have plenty of power to do what you need.

The FASS does NOT have a lifetime warranty... the AirDog does. Note that AirDog is owned by Charlie and FASS is owned by his son. The two had a falling out some time ago and the son went off and started FASS.

... Alpine Offroad & Performance indicated that our injector pump most likely failed due to fuel-air mixture and lack of lubrication. They said that diesel no longer has sulfur in it, and you must use additive otherwise your injector pump will die and that many 98's -02's have died from the stupid fuel. We had no idea we were suppose to be adding a lubricant to our fuel. He sold us "FlashLube" Diesel Conditioner - 1 liter for $32. 00. Is this a good price for this stuff? We will have to order FlashLube. Are there any other good lubricants out there that are readily available and don't cost so much? We have always been using Cetane Boost every other fill up, but Alpine said that was not helping.

As the great Colonel Sherman Potter used to say, "Horse hockey!" Your VP44 might have died for a number of reasons, heat frying the VP44's electronics being one of them.

... Our question is - is the FASS system and others like Airdog, etc. really worth all that money? Blue Chip says that the newer versions of the lift pump we have are adequate. We would like to hear back on this because we have no experience to go on: Do you think that we are safe to tow with our current lift pump's performance? Or should we stay and get a better pressure gauge installed - or just get another lift pump from Blue Chip or flush the old lift pump designs for a system like FASS? Is what has been quoted us a good deal or not? And what about this diesel conditioner?

If your LP is 12psi at idle and 10psi at throttle, then you are fine. You don't need all this fancy crap that Alpine Offroad is trying to sell you. Are Airdog and FASS good systems? Yes. Do you need one? No, you don't... . Chip is right. Would I spend the money to relocate the original LP down by the frame? Yep, Gary-K7GLD did it and his setup looks nice... you can pull a search here to find his thread.



Should you run diesel conditioner? Yes, it is a very good idea. Yes, ULSD doesn't have the amount of sulphur that LSD had (15PPM vs 500PPM), but it still does have sulphur. Stanadyne, Howe's Lubricator and Power Service all do a good job. I personally use Howe's and Power Service, because it's what I can find at both Wally World and truck stops, when we are pulling the Airstream. $32 for a litre of any conditioner seems a bit extreme... . You can get Howe's for $13. 00 (and I think it's 64oz. ) and Power Service sells for about $9/qt.



Alpine Offroad sounds like snake oil salesmen who just want to make a fast buck off of people who are gunshy from a recent traumatic experience.



Drive like you normally do and you will be okay.



If you get down around the San Angelo area, feel free to stop by for a fresh cup of coffee.



Good luck.

 

[DLineberrys]

Ok so we can all agree that the lift pump upgrades don't increase mileage per gallon... . but are good systems... . so far Airdog has more love that FASS, but FASS not getting the dog house. Sounds like the "Juice With Attitude" thing is what may give better mpg - but we have heard it costs about $500. 00. So far the verdict on Juice is not necessary. Our trailer weight is about 7500 lbs. loaded, Gross Combined 14,400 lbs. So extra power to get up the mountain is not necessary for us. Looks like better fuel gauge is what seems to be the verdict before pulling out from Montrose, relocated to the correct valve at the VP. Secondly the kit to put LP to the rail asap. Then we can think about debate between stardard LP or upgrade. Gotta say the upgrade stuff has bling. Problem is bling is a lot more expensive. But upgraders claim that their products are the last word - no more replacement LPs. Standard LPs = keep one on hand for backup in emergency. Do I have it right???? Also diesel conditioner widely available at Walmart, etc. for much cheaper - which contradicts Alpine who said they did not have any at all.

 

[Mishkaya]

Ok so we can all agree that the lift pump upgrades don't increase mileage per gallon... . but are good systems... . so far Airdog has more love that FASS, but FASS not getting the dog house. Sounds like the "Juice With Attitude" thing is what may give better mpg - but we have heard it costs about $500. 00. So far the verdict on Juice is not necessary. Our trailer weight is about 7500 lbs. loaded, Gross Combined 14,400 lbs. So extra power to get up the mountain is not necessary for us. Looks like better fuel gauge is what seems to be the verdict before pulling out from Montrose, relocated to the correct valve at the VP. Secondly the kit to put LP to the rail asap. Then we can think about debate between stardard LP or upgrade. Gotta say the upgrade stuff has bling. Problem is bling is a lot more expensive. But upgraders claim that their products are the last word - no more replacement LPs. Standard LPs = keep one on hand for backup in emergency. Do I have it right???? Also diesel conditioner widely available at Walmart, etc. for much cheaper - which contradicts Alpine who said they did not have any at all.

You pretty much have it right. Any diesel fuel additive is better than none, there is this test that was done that is floating around the web:

http://www.johnfjensen.com/Diesel_fuel_additive_test.pdf

An aftermarket lift pump will definitely outlast the stocker (at a price) and the added filtration ( down to 2 micron) and air removal are bonuses. You really don't need a fueling box, but if you want something reliable that may net you slightly better mileage, go with a timing only box (there are plenty out there, used too in the classifieds, usually cheap) or a programmer (like the smarty) which also will read codes for you and clear them as necessary.

Hope this is not too confusing.

mishkaya

 

[MSimes]

Here's my . 02. at 60,000 my lift pump failed taking out my VP. Dealer installed an in tank pump under warranty and told me the VP was fine after I had provided them with codes and symptoms. Truck coded and ran erratically upon pickup. Returned to dealership to have them try it again and they then replaced the VP. At115000 miles runs like a champ. The VP's in the 00-02's had bronze bushings instead of steel as Bosche was concerned about durability with the USLD coming online and lubricity issues (my understanding) I run Stanadyne under suggestion from the people who rebuild my injection pumps from work. and that shop is loving the biodiesel as it is giving them a great deal of work. Other than AC issues and a couple of minor transmission glitches, I love my truck, easy to work on and carries anything I put in the back with weight to spare. good luck with your fix.

 

[DLineberrys]

Ok we are hearing conflicting claims when it comes to biodiesel. Some are claiming that it is more lubricating than regular diesel. Others are saying that it is killing our pumps. Which is it? Diesel Dan's posts were not clear - did the biodiesel do his truck in or was it regular diesel???? We did use a lot of biodiesel while we were in Lancaster County, PA. Down by the Smorgasbord, there was an Omish owned fuel station which sold biodiesel for much cheaper than regular, so we filled up there all last summer!

As an aside, we also have had A/C issues. We have not gotten ours serviced. We just keep adding the coolant every summer. Pretty much we were fine till we did a summer in Vegas... - a real tuff summer on Bucksnort I am sure. The only other problem we have experienced is that we got our rear differential seal replaced under warranty in Mesa a few months ago - I wish we had dealt with this current issue at that dealership since they were much more sensible.

 

[2-ND TIME]

Dolllarshop claims.....

If you need a L/P Cumzin has them and they are cheeper then the dollarshops. I am on # 7 ??

 

[Mishkaya]

Ok we are hearing conflicting claims when it comes to biodiesel. Some are claiming that it is more lubricating than regular diesel. Others are saying that it is killing our pumps. Which is it? Diesel Dan's posts were not clear - did the biodiesel do his truck in or was it regular diesel???? We did use a lot of biodiesel while we were in Lancaster County, PA. Down by the Smorgasbord, there was an Omish owned fuel station which sold biodiesel for much cheaper than regular, so we filled up there all last summer!

As long as the Biodiesel meets ASTM spec (and it should if it's being sold at the pump) you should have nothing to worry about as far as it damaging your engine or pump, this said Cummins only approves 20% I think these days. As far as lubricating goes, you only need about 2% bio to give you all the lubrication you need to keep your pump happy. What can really do you in is homemade biodiesel that is improperly processed, I think that's what many think of when they hear the term "biodiesel".

mishkaya

 

[DLineberrys]

Brother!

We have been using Power Service with cetane boost. We have been using this since we purchased our truck. We were told that there were no lubricants in these formulations! We read it carefully this morning. We used the white bottle until we started using the grey bottle due to our symptoms because we wanted to make sure our injectors were clean. Bottom line we HAVE been lubricating all these years and that cannot be levied at our failed VP44. It just died like you say, because that is when they die. We made it to 66,100 miles and that is further than some! At least the guy did not charge us for the pressure test.

We also found out that the FlashLube mini-bottle which we were told treats one tank full (30 gallons )..... it does not. The liter we purchased was suppose to treat 18 fill-ups. It only treats 7. Amazing. So the additive costs not $1. 75 per fill-up as claimed, but around $4. 50! You try as hard as possible to keep from being snookered and it happens anyway... ... ... mostly because we get caught in hype and don't SLOW DOWN enough to consider EVERYTHING. That is what happened to me at the Dodge concerning their paperwork listing differing accounts of our symptoms which are meant to stop any further warranty work on our VP and at Alpine with the "big sale"... . which took advantage of our mistrust of Dodge's "word" on our Lift Pump!

 

[DLineberrys]

According to the study on pdf on additives noted by Mishkaya, the Power Service grey bottle was not enough to meet US diesel fuel requirements for maximum wear scar. I have no idea what the white bottle which prevents gelling did because that is what we have been using all these years. I guess it was great till the fuel change over and then did not help any more.

 

[DLineberrys]

What we have learned about LPs

For anyone who may agonize about what kind of LP to get [like we did today - [I must say it was torturous] and you don't know which TYPE to get, because your uneducated like we were [or maybe still are depending on the feedback], here is what we have learned: Feel free to add or to contradict..... after all this has been a fast lesson is diesel mechanics. This is written for other novices so that they will not pull out their hair trying to figure out WHAT THESE THINGS DO and WHY they do what they do. This is paramount to deciding with confidence on how much you want to spend on these things.



First of all: fuel comes with teeny tiny air bubbles already dispersed throughout the fuel - a problem from the beginning. Air is a problem. The tiny little air bubbles go into the injectors and get compressed. The injectors are timed to compress precisely. The compression of the tiny air bubble throws this timing off by just a minute amount. Air acts as a contaminate in much the same way particulates and dirt do. We can filter out particulates on all systems because we have filters. Not all systems filter out air. Air can cause damage to the injectors over time.



30 psi stock replacement pumps are weak pumps. When relocated to the rail under the hood, they at least cut down on heat. They supply enough pressure under normal circumstances... . the tiny air bubbles are there of course. When you accelerate HARD, the LP has to work really hard. It can get a little "behind the eight ball" so to speak. Pressure drops some, but not enough to damage the VP do to fuel starvation while they are in good working order. If I understand it correctly an expanding diaphragm controls this. When pressure drops, do the expanded diaphragm, a greater vacuum effect is created. The vacuum effect expands the tiny air bubbles into larger air bubbles. The larger air bubbles are dangerous. This is the same effect created by the heat. When they reach the injectors and get compressed, they implode, [it is like an explosion - but in reverse as they compress down... . sort of like how a supernova will finally implode back on itself and create a black hole. LOL!!!!] A tiny little hole is created in your injector etc... . This is called pitting and scarring to the injectors. This will wear out the injectors, if this happens on a regular basis over a long time. Eventually these LPs fail, the older they get, and fuel starvation kills our VP... something woeful and a cause of a great amount of cursing. #@$%! This is why everyone keeps a backup in their truck.



Upgraded pumps which are also relocated to the side rail inside and under the hood are designed to keep the pressure constant. They put out at least 100 psi or more depending on if you have a stock truck or a modified HO. When you step on the petal, the pressure stays constant. This keeps down the vacuum effect [and the expanded air bubbles]. This also prevents the starvation to the VP and thus also prevents cursing... . LOL! These models use the stock fuel filtering/water separating system. You do still get the tiny air bubble problem - but not near as bad.



The expensive upgraded pumps are located near the fuel tank. Their installation is more involved than the rail-side, under-hood models. These models bypass the stock fuel filtering/water separating system in your truck. They separate the water on their own. They have their own filters, and you can choose the amount of particulate you allow into the injection system: 2 microns, 5 microns, 10 microns - etc. They are easy to remove and replace and last longer than standard stock fuel filters. They remove all the air out of the injector system. This keeps timing precise and stops the damage created by air in the injectors. So there is a potential to keep your injectors in better shape in the long run with this type of pump.



For those of you who are following our thread..... it has come down to a decision between a Raptor 100 or an Airdog 100. We are going to sleep on it and give you an answer in the morning! LOL.

 

[MSimes]

Bosche only warrants B5 and there is a good article in Sept Diesel power regarding Bio Diesel and the new manufacturing processes they are working with. There is no accepted standard in the States as we do more of a "splash blend" Europe has EN specs for their fuel mixtures. Bio is very hydroscopic so it wants to absorb water and there are other elements which can be corrosive to parts in the fuel injection system. I'm also looking hard at the Air Dog as recomended by people I trust (I'm in the supply side in the construction business so times are tight at the moment)



The updated VP's are purported to be much more durable as Bosch has seen the error in their ways. We run a similar but smaller pump in our forklifts and have not had a failure in the extreme conditions we subject them to. Hope it all works out for you guys.