Here I am

Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) dealership claims injector pump timing failure but have good lift pump pressure

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff
Status
Not open for further replies.
Not so sure about all the air bubble stuff. earth moving equipment is pretty pricey and downtime is a killer and they have pretty basic filtration systems. These air bubbles would also kill the newer High Pressure common rails as they are running substantialy more pressure then our injector pumps produce. It's been my experience that injector springs will fatigue with time thus lowering the pop off pressure resulting in smoking issues and timing problems. we throw in new injectors when we rebuild engines as a PM measure. get ahold of a good diesel service outfit (and there are many in this site) and see what they say. They see the insides of these pumps and know what Bio diesel can do as well as water and other contaminants. This is also why I use Stanadyne treatment. That said, I get roughly 10,000 hours out of a fuel pump at work and they are OK but do have signs of wear (and more now that we run USLD) especially on rotating assemblies.
 
don't worry about the air, look at all these trucks running down the road on stock fuel systems, even look at the semi's a little air isn't gonna hurt a thing
 
hi see if a cummins dealership is around they trouble shot my problems when dodge coulnt get a code !also the lift pump , if its ng it will take out your new pump , -- replace filters too !!
 
vp44 MUST be made by women

Daniel says the VP44 is just like a woman!!! she demands so much! #@$%! She wants fuel filtered down to 2 microns, water removed, air removed, and fuel that is full of "conditioner"..... WHAT ELSE DOES SHE WANT OUT OF US!:{ LOL.
 
We got an Airdog

Hi everyone. Just wanted to update on what has happened. We did a WOT test on our current LP. The pressure is fine for normal driving, but when we did the test, it did drop dangerously low. We have the 100 gauge, first mark being 12. 5. It fell by half, and we figured that it is old and dangerous by now so just forget it. After pondering everything, we went with the Airdog because we are tired of thinking about it all. We just want to get down the road and not worry about it anymore. We got some bonus filters for it, so it was really worth it $$$ in the long run again the Raptor, and stock filters.

Right now we are moments away from being kicked outta this park for labor day traffic. Going right next door, however, less than a mile. We will take it easy and put no strain on the LP for such a short distance on flat road. Airdog on the way, so we will get back to you when we have it installed.....

WE CAN'T THANK EVERYONE ENOUGH FOR HELPING US THROUGH THIS! Oo.
 
Last edited:
Hi just thought I'd pass this on. I spoke to a rep for Cummins (ok he's from the gen side of the company) he said to look on "www.Cummins.com" there will be a link to locate a service shop close to where you are located. Hope this helps. Best of luck...
 
The FASS 150 and Airdog are good systems. This has been hashed over again and again on this site for the last 7 or 8 years, and as a general consensus, the stock system sucks. The in-tank option (as stated earlier) is better than the original system, but is still limited to "Stock" applications. Some individuals will argue to the ends of the earth over which pumps are good, and which are not. I can not make the decision for you, but only base the following on my own experiences and my research.



Going with the aftermarket systems is great for the stock truck, but will not gain any HP or MPG. It might, at best, extend the lifetime of the VP44 (but many factors contribute to this, ranging from fuel to operating conditions and drivers). What I have not seen in this thread is the reliability of aftermarket vs. stock. Anybody saying anything else is trying to sell you parts, or is just not informed.



Yes, an aftermarket costs $600+, but I almost guarantee that you will never need to change the unit. I personally changed 8 stock lift pumps on my truck in the first 2 or 3 years of ownership. I could not take the pumps to the dealer for warranty, as I voided my engine warranty with mods about 1 week after buying my truck. Since then, I have put on 2 FASS units (I had some gasket issues, one of the original blue FASS units, very rare units, only about 100 made) on my truck, and countless units on other trucks. I repaired the original, and it is now sitting on the shelf as a spare unit. The FASS 150 (with filters) has 3/8" lines, and is good to 500hp. I had to upgrade mine to 1/2" lines with a 1/2" pickup in the tank because I could actually pull my FASS down below 12PSI (from 17) at WOT.



I have virtually every aftermarket thing on my engine that you can imagine, and the FASS runs great. With the 1/2" lines, I can not move the FP gauge from 17psi, no matter how hard I push on the loud pedal.



As far as I am concerned (and I am certain a few others here would agree), get rid of the stock fuel system. At a minimum, eliminate all the Banjo bolts, move the fuel pump back near the fuel tank,and get a good mechanical fuel pressure gauge from 0 to 30 psi. Even the stock lift pump back near the tank will work on trucks with minor HP mods, if the pump is utilized in a fashion where it pushes fuel, not pulls fuel (again hashed many times here over the years), it should last a little longer, but it will eventually fail (just not heavy duty enough to push that much fuel that far). Many individuals on this site have performed this mod, I think they have spent way more money in the form of time engineering one of these retrofits than the aftermarket kits cost.



Before D/C began using the in-tank pump, they had a retrofit kit that lowered and moved the lift pump back towards the tank. It was not a popular conversion, but there was a wire harness and bracket available (although I think it did not do anything).



I would not really worry about air in the fuel. Any time that the fuel is pumped, you create a turbulent flow, with air pockets in it. I do not care what kind of pump you use for this, or what type of system you have. Some pumps control this, and attempt to provide a more laminar flow, but there will always be air in the fuel.



The more important thing here, is sufficient volume (something like 70% of the fuel is used for lubricating and cooling the VP44, and is then returned to the tank) and pressure. Insufficient volume, and cavitation will occur, run dry, and eventually burn up the internals. On the older pumps, with the brass plungers, this happens sooner than later. Since Volume is only slightly related to the pressure and the diameter of the fuel line (using some calculus), we can infer that a certain pressure, say 10psi equates to some specific volume.



Insufficient volume or a lack of pressure can eventually lead to premature failures typically indicated by hard starts and/or rough running at first, or can simply flat out fail. This can be tracked down to a few specific items within the VP44, most of which are mechanical. If you search on this forum, you will find a few people who have rebuilt the mechanical portions of the VP44. There is one thread somewhere out there that has great images, and explains one of the primary mechanical failures very well. If it is an electronic failure, it is just easier to replace the pump, as tracking down the component that has actually failed on the board is nearly impossible (even if you figure out what is damaged, if it is a EEPROM, you will most likely not have the software or tools to re-flash the chips).



Unfortunately, very few shops are equipped to properly diagnose what is wrong with a VP44, and even fewer are able to rebuild one. Trust me, the local Dodge dealer is not on the list (neither is Mopar). I used to work for Daimler Chrysler Rail division (we are now a different company). Chrysler does not have the facilities to rebuild these units, nor do they care to. They simply buy new units, then put on a 40% margin and retail them. BTW, 40% was the standard margin for any part. If anything came in the door ranging from terminal blocks to a circuit board, it got 40%. This 40% was incurred at each sales point, even internal sales to different divisions, which is why some parts, like mounting hardware, costs 500% more than at the autoparts store.



For the amount of money that is spent on installing lift pumps when including the labor to install, you might as well put on a unit that will not break as easily.



If this forum is searched, I would be willing to bet the most popular item in the 2nd gen 24valve area are items related to Fuel Pressure, VP-44 failure, and lift pumps.



And one other thing that drives me nuts (me being an engineer that has to be correct). It is not the sulfur that is the lubricant in Diesel fuel. Sulfur is not a lubricant in of itself, but it can combine with the nickel content in many metal alloys to form a low melting point eutectic alloy that can increase lubricity.



The process used to reduce the Sulfur also reduces the fuel's lubricating properties. Lubricity is a measure of the fuel's ability to lubricate and protect the various parts of the engine's fuel injection system from wear. The processing required to reduce sulfur to 15 ppm (ULSD) also removes naturally-occurring lubricity agents in diesel fuel. You can find much more from Chevron and Wikipedia.



A good water separator filter will get rid of any minor/trace amounts of water in the fuel, if they are maintained. If you have a tank of water, no separator will help with that, nor prevent damage to any of the VP44 (or engine, remember, liquids are not compressible, and are significantly more powerful than the head gasket/studs). The stock filter/separator is OK, but is not designed for high-mileage trucks, or fuel-hungry trucks. A good Fleetguard aftermarket setup would be better. You can also get better Micron rating filters with an aftermarket setup.



These are just my $0. 02, but if you want something reliable and would like to make every effort to maximize the life of a $1100 VP44 (4k was a rip by the dealer) get a FASS or some other aftermarket fuel pump (get one with good filters).
 
EDankievitch - Hey that is actually a very useful site for RVers in particular! At least this way we can have an alternative to Dodge IF a Cummins Service provider is within striking distance. Thankfully this time around our VP got warranted... . but you never know when it might come in handy! I have it bookmarked!
 
Last edited:
well I think that settled it....

Dear rkressg, Wow you have really blown the lid off my simplistic explanation and understanding..... which is fine I "ain't no" engineer. LOL. Actually your message was very helpful and interesting. Do you race your truck? Anyway, it helped reassure us in the decision we made.



We are in aviation (well Daniel is and by default, me too) and your message only seemed to confirm what I was pondering on today: In General Aviation (non-jet) you will primarily find very old airplanes. These planes go through very anal inspections every 100 hours to make sure they are airworthy. ANYTHING which can prolong the life of any engine component or the airframe is very valuable. Anything which can extend the time between overhauls saves TONS OF MONEY. This stuff is very expensive (but not as bad as the VP44 - LOL!) I am sharing this info on the airplanes because I think that all of us who have the 98. 5 -02 would benefit from looking at our truck the way aircraft owners look at their airplanes. Anything which will help our components go just bit farther, help protect from early deterioration, or last a bit longer is beneficial. After all there are less and less of us every year and every year parts come harder to come by as we get "phased out".



We personally don't want a new truck. I believe many of you feel the same way. Anything which can help us hang onto our trucks longer is beneficial. Whether or not these pumps with bling can really do that - only time will tell. That is part of our thinking behind getting a higher quality pump. Nothing is full-proof. All one can do is make the best decision they can. We pray that we can keep our truck for the rest of our lives - or until it is impossible to use it anymore because of a fuel changeover. Hopefully we won't have to buy ANY MORE PUMPS - but if we do, I am sure that there will be some other "big advancement" which everyone here will argue over... . LOL.
 
If you are in Aviation, than you are probably familiar with Bombardier (who I now work for). We have to design everything for a 30 year expected lifespan with minimal maintenance, so this goes into my everyday job looking for failures and weak points.

Regarding failed/replaced VP44s, virtually every rebuilt pump today has the better "Hard" parts inside, leading to a longer life cycle, but as with anything that is mechanically complex, it can fail (my luck my truck will break today). The electronics are not all that much better on the newer trucks. It really does not matter where you get a rebuilt pump, there are literally less than 10 places in the US that actually perform the rebuild (at least there were, that I would trust), one of the better places IMO is Industrial Injection in Salt Lake City. If something does fail on the VP44, to send the pump to one of the shops and have it diagnosed and repaired will cost more than a rebuilt pump.

The prices on Rebuilt Pumps can range from $1000 to $1700 (for High HP pumps) if you shop around. It takes about 3 hours to change a pump, and the only difficult part is pulling the front timing gear off the pump (assuming you get the pump at TCD), sometimes the pump gear will stick, and you can break a puller , don't ask. The rest is very straight forward, but just takes time.

In regards to your question, it is a daily driver truck (I drive about 60 miles of stop and go traffic to/from work everyday. I usually do not exceed 25 mph due to traffic (Pittsburgh sucks there there is a hill and stop sign every 50').
 
I can't speak for all your problems, but can speak to the lift pump issue. I would get a second opinion from a real diesel mechanic and wait for responses here before doing anything. I had Dodge replace my lift pump in the tank (I didn't know any better at the time). The in tank model will not give the pressure the stand lift pump the motor came with. You can get them on eBay all day long or at Cummins directly. I ended up putting the stock lift pump back in in series with the in-tank model. I now have bookoo pressure. Hope this helps.
 
PBoland, That is actually a great suggestion to anyone who can still get their lift pump replaced under warranty - I don't know who that would be... . we 2nd gens are quickly running out - even us few with the 7/100,000. I think that Dodge TRIES to get by without doing the warranty on the LP. There are many in this thread who did get one replaced under warranty - I could not without a long drawn out fight with Dodge and a corrupt local dealership. For us it was not worth it, since we did not want it in the first place. However it is a great suggestion to anyone who has the in-tank to put the stock LP back in series to boost output.
 
anyone have links to an Airdog installation video?

Hey! Just got the Airdog delivered today. :) We have been going over the parts to make sure we have everything and are reading the instructions. Does anyone know of a video which goes through the steps of installation? It would be great to refer to if we get stuck. The instructions are OK, but generic and general. We did call Airdog about the pipe thread compound which is diesel compatible. They said common white thread tape would work. Any feedback would be thankfully received.
 
Dan and Toni,



I know of no video, but if you take the harness and lay it out, it's pretty plug and play... you will have to use zipstrips to make everything nice and neat. The only part of your Mopar harness you will not be using is the Water In Fuel sensor harness. If you decide to leave your fuel filter and LP in place for aesthetic reasons (it's all getting bypassed anyway, so there is no point really in keeping it there), you can keep the WIF sensor hooked to the Mopar filter housing. The sensible thing to do is to get rid of all the original crap, which in turn frees up a whole bunch of room in the engine compartment, and put a plastic baggie over the WIF sensor and electrical tape it, so water doesn't get in there and trip your WIF light inside.



If you use Teflon sealer, use the liquid stuff so that you have no risk of any Teflon tape breaking off into the fuel system and clogging that new VP44... . that would really suck bad.



Good luck in your endeavors. If you need help, I have my cell phone with me, and I believe you have my number... . I can walk you through it.
 
Last edited:
Injection pump VP44

Thanks to Chip at Bluechip and his very complete install instructions I was able to install his X VP44 pump in under 3 hrs start to drive off and he sends a puller with the kit that you return with the core at no extra charge. Chip is a great resource and I hope I can meet him and buy him a drink of his choice someday. The truck is completely a different driving vehicle today than it was last week with its occasional dead pedal and other dead spots which I could not nail down. I have a 99 so no on board code reader but did have p0216 before the pump replacement. I will put this to the real test next week when I take off to Reno for the World Championship Air Races and then home ( about 2k miles or more) will post these results when I return, but hope all goes well. Go to Chips site and do more reading as well as the great resources we have here at TDR.



gtwitch in Wyoming
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top