Holley pump

[Arcticat]

Chris, I think I wasn't quite clear in my last post. What I intend to do is exactly what you laid out in your first reply. Stock pump positive wire will trigger the relay, which will feed the new pump with juice right from the battery. This way the new pump should go on and off like the stock pump, except for this 25% duty cycle. Personally I'm not worried about the 25% duty cycle since it is only supposed to occur when the engine is cranking. I have never needed more than three revolutions, at the most a second and a half of cranking on the coldest days until the engine starts, so having the pump run at full blast for that small amount of time isn't going to hurt anything I wouldn't think. What I meant when I mentioned the fluctuating voltage in the stock pump circuit is that I don't know if 8volts is enough to get a relay to kick on, I think it's going to work just fine. If you want to try it this way, get a heavy duty relay from your local autozone or pep boys or whatever. It will come with a diagram that shows which pins on the relay go to what. Also get a fuse holder to go between the battery and the new pump.

 

[csutton7]

Articat--makes sense-but they are using the 25% duty to limit injection pump inlet pressure until the engine is running. Is this so as not to flood the engine or what?? But anyway I'll try to pick up a relay today and get it in & see if this helps the pump. It's worth it to see cuz' a relay is cheap and it can't hurt at this point & at least we may get so more info to push in the right direction. --chris

 

[Morphious]

Does anyone have a handheld o-scope? that is really the only way we are really going to find out what is going on. A digital multimeter might work, but I would really like a look at the power signal coming off of the circuit, that would give you a true understanding of what is happening.

Morph.
#ad


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'99 2500 4x4 QC Std transmission, Purple (usually Mud Red), 10 Disc Changer, 285x75Rx16 BFG Mudders, Amr. Racing Baja Wheels, Gooseneck hitch, 275lb King Klaw front bumper, Towing/Camper packages. DDIII's, Exhaust, TTPM, Boost Module. Fuel Pressure, EGT adn Boost Guages. Mallory Fuel Pump. (fastest farm truck around). And can't forget the hydraulic PigSticker.

1965 Chevy 1/2 ton Pickup, 350-350hp/2spd powerglide, PS, PB, Disc Brakes on the front, Tilt, Fuel Cell, 3. 73 posi.

26ft Gooseneck Flatbed Trailer, 2 horse bumper pull, Round bale Trailer.

1960 Farmal 340 Diesel Tractor.

 

[B. Gill]

please excuse my ignorance guys
in what way 14 psi would affect the injection pump when it is designed to work at that pressure ?also even if the pressure at start up is at the max i. e. 14 psi it does not matter how much the plunger can deliver as plunger depends on the lift pump just for feeding and actual amount delived to the cylinder is determined by the plunger itself independent of the pressure in the pump,of course a very low pressure will make it not deliver enough but max pressure i dont see in what way it can affect? but then i new to electronically controlled cummins have had some experience with mechanical injection pumps.

 

[csutton7]

B. Gill--I think we all are wondering the same thing and can't figure out how it could do any damage, but nevertheless good ol' Dodge did it for a reason and that's the dilemna. Why did they do it? What are they accomplishing with making the transfer pump go to 25% duty???? Just to send up a smoke screen to keep us guys from finding some easy way to BOMB-who knows??
Well, guys I wired in the the relay and it didn't make a difference in fuel pressure!! Bummer!! But what I did find out is that with the key ON there is less than 5 volts, using my little light volt meter-5v-24v, the light would not come on across the output & ground, but would come on when I started it. Does anybody know what this means? To me it means the full power is not being transferred until the engine is running or starter cranking-the relay isn't opening up as there is insufficient power to open it. (probably should use close vs open in the last sentence). Which in turn means the power from the ECM to the pump is definitely less when you turn on the ignition vs when the engine is running or starter is cranking, but we knew that from the manual. What I do know is the HOLLEY pump is NOT the answer or in any case not for me. As the pressure drop is the same pre relay install as it is post relay install(less than 5psi-seen as low as 3psi and the stock pump read 2 psi at WOT-all post filter readings with a new filter).
So it looks like a newer new pump will be what I need and now for the phone calls to figure out which one--Mallory-BG-Paxton. ---chris

 

[csutton7]

paxton pump won't work--Mallory or BG & let's see who gives the best tech advice--chris

 

[Mopar-muscle]

csutton , i did a little digging on the holley site and found out the real operating pressure of that pump you bought , yes the summit and jegs catolog list it as 14 psi , 140 gph , FREEFLOWING ... ie , no resistance, like letting it run into a bucket ... in pressurized operation its ONLY 9 PSI , 120 gph , there is your problem the holley pump is putting out LESS pressure than the stock lift pump .

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-12-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

I should be working but this is much to important---these are my & only my observations from the archives & current forums, JEGS& BG tech & have yet to talk to Mallory tech(but I think it would be same):
Mallory pump has been used by HVAC for 6 mos. + and is working good--it is a good pump & most likely would be a good replacement pump for most trucks if not all---
BG pump has been used by Chad for 1 month+ and is working great-he hasn't seen less than 11 psi(WOW)--I explained to the BG tech guy how our trucks work(25% duty, 100% duty, yada, yada, yada..... )He said the 25% duty will make the pump pump(run) slower-whether that affected us he didn't know(how far pump needed to push fuel for everything to work, but since Chad has the pump we can see it works), but that this wouldn't hurt the pump at all--BG makes a power step down box-we don't need it--the 30 amp relay is up to you, but we probably don't need it, but again I don't think this would hurt to have it installed----

BG tech guy said they'd never considered them for diesel use and I said well if it pushes fuel it pushes and if it doesn't it doesn't-right? and he agreed(this has been the same comment from all that I've talked too)

both Mallory & BG pumps are of the same design which is different from the Carter & Holley(sliding vane style)

both cost about the same(within $20-BG is more)

from the JEGS tech guy the BG is a little heavier duty

again-the relay made no diff in pressure with the HOLLEY 12-815

what effect the OEM wiring system will have on either pump is still being researched and we may never know until more of us start using these pumps and post our findings--

I think I got a bad Holley pump, so I'm not sure about its ability, we need more Holley users to chime in and verify their experience with the Holley--mine is bad, but it was bad from the start--will I buy another-I doubt it--what am I going to buy-I'm leaning toward the BG & will let you all know---chris

[This message has been edited by csutton7 (edited 03-12-2001). ]

 

[Arcticat]

I pulled the loom off the wiring to the stock lift pump and put my clamp on multimeter on it but unfortunately the meter only reads down to 110V. Anybody out there have a clamp on meter that reads down to 12V DC? I was going to clamp around the positive wire and get a reading on the amp draw when running, before starting, and cranking. To get a good reading while cranking, unplug the large harness on the back of the injection pump, where a VA would normally plug in. That will keep the engine from starting but allow it to crank.

I am starting to think the stock harness doesn't matter anyway. I had thought I would wire a relay off it so that the new pump would turn off and not just be running continuously while I wait for the grid heaters, which can be a while since it gets below zero here and I don't plug in. But... the injection pump opens it's return valve at 14psi, so the lift pump isn't going to be fighting against any restriction or blockage. Also the stocker has no problem pumping merrily away if you bump the starter but don't start the engine. I remember this from installing my injectors - you prime the fuel system by bumping the starter several times, and each time the lift pump cycles for thirty seconds, pushing fuel through the overflow on the injection pump, pushing any air in the lines back to the fuel tank.

Chris the BG220 seems like a sure way to get the job done. I went for the Summit G3134 140gph at 18psi. I don't think anyone has tried this one yet, but I will give a full report after this coming weekend, my fuel pressure gauge will be here tomorrow so I'll finally be able to get this done. If it works it would be a great option for alot of people, it's only 100 bucks. Summit doesn't have any info on their website but it's in their catalog on the same page as the Holleys and Carters. I can tell you that the machining and construction of this pump are impressive.

[This message has been edited by Arcticat (edited 03-12-2001). ]

 

[Arcticat]

Chris, I am wondering the same thing about the 25% duty cycle. I can't see it being a problem. After all, the relief valve on the VP44 opens at 14psi, so it seems that they are just trying to keep the pressure below that figure while cranking. I doubt it matters either way. Plenty of guys just have thier pump wired to a start-run circuit, or a switch in the cab off the battery, thus thier pumps have only one duty cycle, 100%. To be honest the service manual baffles me sometimes. Case in point the manual claims that the OEM lift pump draws 12 amps. Meanwhile a Holley or Summit or evan a BG are all in the neighborhood of 4amps and flow three times or more the amount of fuel. Either the manual is wrong or the other companies lowball the amps it takes to run thier pumps. My bet is the manual is way off.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

This 25% duty cycle stuff doesn't make sense to me. When I had a fuel pressure gauge hooked up for awhile, pressure built up quickly to 14psi as soon as I turned the key "on. " It would then fall rather quickly as soon as it cycled off. If I bumped the starter and let the pump go into a long run cycle, it still ran at 14psi.

Based on how it operates, when the pump kicks in, it acts like its running on full, 100% DC voltage all the time. When I had my pump located at the fuel tank and rubbing against the bed making lots of noise, it always sounded like it was running at the same power level, only altering pitch slightly based on the battery load. I'm having a hard time believing in it's "25% dity cycle. " I wonder if they are saying it is pulsed DC, or if it's "on" approximately 25% of the time until the engine fires off? If it's pulsed DC, what frequency is it pulsed at??

Vaughn

 

[csutton7]

I've decided on the BG220HR pump and will let you all know how I wired it up-via the OEM pump wiring or another ignition/run source--I will use a relay either way.
If I get a chance I'm going to try to figure out electrically what is happening with the current that comes thru the OEM pump wire, but I'm not going to have a lot of free time for awhile, so maybe someone can beat me to it & let us know, plus I ain't no expert when it comes to this electrical crap, but I'll tell ya what I find out.
I think the Mallory is a close second to the BG & then who knows-Summit's own pump(we will get info on that shortly), the Holley(as some guys have had good luck with it, but I didn't) and then there is a different Carter(Ted J. has them & could give you info) and of course you can OEM replace(I wouldn't). I think that's about all the choices we have for pumps under $250 that are streetable, if anyone knows of more please let us know. It looks like the BG puts out the most consistent pressure thru out the different driving conditions & is more heavy duty than the Mallory(but not much), while the Mallory has a small drop in psi, the Holley yet more psi drop and we all know about the OEM psi drop. chris

 

[Mopar-muscle]

chris , yesterday i started to BOMB my banjo bolts , i believe that is the biggest problem with the stock fuel lines , the one i pulled out of the injection pump had 4 smal holes 90* apart , they were less than . 150 each , then the hole thru the bolt is only . 265 , though the line size is supposed to be . 375 . what i did was increase all the small holes to . 199 and open up the thru hole to . 297 ( thats a bit less than 5/16ths . the stock fuel lines are the problem along with the location of the lift pump .

edit ... i talked to a couple guys today that build race engines and one pump feeding the other is a bad idea , will cut short the life of the forward pump . best thing one guy told me is to get a pump that will put out about 18 psi working pressure and regulate it down to 13psi like the stock pump , this should give enough pressure to feed the injection pump without much of a pressure drop .

maybe we can get a group purchase of barry grant pumps ??

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-13-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

This is going to be long---the saga does indeed continue and although I've ordered the BG pump after yesterday's chat with one of their tech guys and now after talking to BG again-thanks to MOPAR MUSCLE--that this is not even close to being as simple as it looks(BG tech guy today was super).
Their BG220HR is a countinuos duty pump, but the return line must return independently to the tank, thus you must drill and tap into the tank head and add a fitting to accept a -10AN line-DON'T tap into the existing return line cuz you might be jeopardizing your VP44, but that's not all their bypass/regulator is an in & out type and we need in, out & out for the set up to work properly. You may also need to drill out the filter head to accept BG -10AN supply line and drill out the fuel tank head to accept the -10AN supply to pump line--so that's drilling and tapping for 2 places on the tank head & the filter head a very good candidate for drilling & tapping also. Now what about the bypass regulator--well you can buy the 2 different regulators made by BG, but there's no guarantee that they will work(I'm pretty sure you could make it work, but we're on uncharted ground and the BG tech guys aren't sure it will work or how good it will work). The one regulator is like the one you get with the BG220HR pump and there is a removable plug on the pump where you could plumb into & then run the return line back to the tank, but you should put this bypass the exact same distance as the regulator that you'd install in the supply line going to the the filter. Or you could buy the regulator that comes with the BG220PS and attach it to the BG220HR (the only diff between the two pumps is the motor the body is the same) and then plumb your return line to the tank. Again nobody is saying this will work and only a guinea pig -probably me- will be able to tell us if this system is a cure all. It's not cheap as now you need bigger lines, extra fittings, extra regulator, probably Ted J. 's tank head/supply line upgrade and time.
On the wiring end of things the relay set up wired off the OEM pump wire is probably the best way to go as I've been told that we do indeed get varying voltage out of the ECM when we're driving and the relay is the only way to combat this without wiring to another source and if you do wire to another source you'll get a check engine light or possible code flashing.
Recap--the Holley pump is probably ok, but must be mounted near the tank as at the OEM location I'm probably sucking dry for short periods of time thus my low pressure readings at WOT. Carter makes a better pump that's an exact bolt in replacement-Ted J. has them and I think Jegs does too, but I'm thinking if this OEM location is not good for other elcetric fuel pumps how can it be good the the stock pump or any direct bolt in replacement??? Best cost and possibly the best option may be adding a Holley or equal near the tank to assist the stock pump and wire everything thru a relay and possibly add a regulator between the stock pump and the filter to reduce the pressure. The Mallory pump may be the best one pump option(cost & installation), but I have not spent the time researching it as I had decided the BG was the answer and it may be the best of the others, but it is a costly one and would only make sense if it outlasts all the other pumps by 3-6 times depending on the pump you buy.
Whatever you do I'd immediatley wire your pump thru a relay using the OEM pump wiring as the switch side, because I think this may add some life to the factory pump or your newly installed aftermarket pump. Jegs has them already made up by BG and a couple of other manufacturers or you can got to Radio Shack and by a 30 amp relay and inline fuse and wire it upyourself.
Now what am I gonna do--I don't know-gonna think a little more--chris

 

[csutton7]

MM-yea you could be right about putting the Holley in to assist and probably a very good idea-& you may be onto something about the restriction caused by the banjo's--I still got the OEM pump but cut the wires kinda short(with little work I could use it), but since I've ordered the BG the Holley will stay in as a backup if the BG ever goes tits up as it's bolted in and easily wired up)-I upgraded my lines so that shouldn't be a problem-except I'm wondering about drilling out the filter head for more flow thru the filter, but I didn't look at it closely enuff when I had it apart to see if this was a viable option. Also Brandon & I were talking last night and if one of us gets the time we're going to put a guage on the return line to see what the return psi is--
I did a little electrical test across my newly added relay and with the key ON there is no power going to the pump, but when it's started I'm getting full voltage--so this 25% duty cycle thing may happen when cranking or it's happening before I get probes attached and then shuts itself off-I need someone to turn the key on for me while I've got the probes connected to see if something is happening in that 5 second period--but when the truck was idling the current was rock steady---further testing to commence when I get some help--got to go ---chris

 

[Mopar-muscle]

well the saga continues , i called barry grant today and the guy on their tech line told me that their pumps are not designed to run at the pressure we need continuiously , they have to be regulated down to 7-8 psi and the return MUST be connected to the fuel tank or pump will burn up.

i'm calling summit about their pump ... i called summit , their pump isn't good for this application ,and their tech line is a waste of my money . sounds like a young kid that doesn't know much about their own products...

summit just told me NOTHING in their catolog will work in our application , they just sell it , if it don't work , TOO BAD , its our problem not theirs ... nice .

i'm calling federal mogul/carter to find out if the pump that is speced on out trucks is designed to do what chrysler is doing with it .

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 03-13-2001). ]

 

[Mopar-muscle]

chris , hold the phone and DO NOT buy anything else , the truck is running and as long as you are not foot to the firewall you will be ok , tomorrow i am ordering line and a carter P4600HP pump , 7psi output , i have fitting to replace the stock banjo fittings and after my half hour talk with the tech line at carter i believe the solution i have will work on most rams except for those with HVAC type HP levels . the stock pickup can and will support up to about 500 - 600 hp flywheel level , sportbike is still running the stock pickup at that HP level so i am told , i have not spoken to him personally .

i have a handful of banjo bolts , these things are a joke . i was also was under a ram tonite and got a good idea of fuel line length from stock location to fuel pickup is more like 8 plus feet , according to carter this is contributing to the lift pump failure along with sucking thru that small banjo bolt restriction ... damm i sound like a broken record .

again chris , hold the phone , by the time we get this figured out you will have spent close to 800 bucks , when the fix is more in the $300 range or less .

first thing you can do with what you have is move the holley pump as close to the tank as possible , this will save that pump , and possibly get you a more constant pressure , the stock lines will suffice till next week when it can be figured out ... maybe i'm wrong as i still have no idea of your present HP level .

 

[Arcticat]

Yes Chris I say wait for the rest of us, no sense in us all being guinea pigs. I'll have my pump and lines in this weekend, so will Mopar. There is no reason the Summit pump won't work, I know it sounds like a junk inhouse brand but believe me if you held it in your hand you would see it is better than a Holley. I am going to put mine right by the fuel tank and run -8AN all the way to the injection pump. John is going with two pumps so we will know how that works too. I honestly don't see the need to upgrade the fuel pickup out of the tank. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the stock metal line coming out of the tank 3/8"? Thats almost as big as -8AN. IOW plenty big. I wish chad would comment on this, apperently his setup is "wrong" according to BG tech, but is working fine the way it is.

Also sportbike told me his fuel lines from the tank are stock up until they change to rubber. And he is using the Holley 815 so far without a problem, but is changing to the Summit.

Chris I thought the voltage on the lift pump circuit wasn't enough to close the relay until after the truck starts? If so that's no good I don't think, you definately want the lift pump to turn on, prime the fuel system and build some pressure behind the injection pump before you start cranking.

[This message has been edited by Arcticat (edited 03-14-2001). ]

 

[BigCarl64]

I shall throw my 2 cents into this discusstion. I have had the Mallory 4140 pump installed for over 6 months now and approx. 15,000 miles. It has worked liked a charm. I also have the upgraded aeroquip lines and 90 degree fittings installed at the same time, as well as a fuel pressure gauge. I also have DD stage 3 injectors along with the new TST PowerMax 3 box.

The pump is mounted on the frame rail and wired into the stock wiring harness using weatherpack connectors. When the key is turned on, w/o cranking engine, the pump will run for approx. 2 seconds, then shut off. Bumping the starter w/o cranking the engine, the pump runs for about 30 seconds.

Results: Pressure steady at 13 psi with no fluctuations with the pump running. With engine running at idle, still 13 psi. Normal cruise at 70 mph, 12 psi. WOT run from dead stop with PM3 off, psi drops to 11, then quickly returns to 12 psi. WOT run with PM3 on at setting 6, psi will drop to 8, then recover quickly after easing out of the throttle due to excessive speed... #ad


All in all, I am very pleased with the Mallory pump. It has no problems keeping up with the demand for fuel.

[This message has been edited by BigCarl64 (edited 03-14-2001). ]

 

[csutton7]

Mopar Muscle-you're right about the cost -not cheap unless the BG pump can outlast the others from 3-10 times depending on the pump you buy--is it worth it--I think not for most of the guys--I should be 450-500 hp when all is said & done---I'm at $700+ w/o TED J. 's parts, but I over bought fittings & hose to be on the safe side, I gotta go have a good cry now-most of the stuff has been shipped, so I have a little time to see if I'll use it or ship it back--

The voltage thing is what I'm not to sure about at key ON as I need someone to turn on the key, because it takes me more than 2 seconds to get the probes on the relay to really see what it is doing-can't use the wife as she super suspicious and gave me a little talking to last night--but anyway it sounds like the pump comes on when you turn the key ON, but I have to check it this morning when I leave-
To avoid the possiblity of the idiot lights coming on I think it's best to use the OEM wire to the pump to the relay-TED J. confirmed all the above wiring info--
One thing is for sure mount the new pump back at the tank whether it's aftermarket or stock replacement and I do believe the relay wiring is needed-just need to really confirm--

So now we just need the best pump at the best price without having to jump thru so many hoops--Price & jumpin thru hoops wise the BG is out unless Chad's & Blackdemon's set up proves us wrong, the Mallory, Summit's own, Holley & Carter look like they will do the job without too much fuss, it'll depend on which one holds up the longest & provides the most consistent flow thru WOT, idling & normal driving that will be the key---chris