Killing while driving, this has got me stumped!(LONG ONE)

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Now all, this one has me majorly stumped, hopefully, someone else has ran into this also( and Glen, if you are reading, pay close attention to the replys!!! #ad
)
I am working on a '94 Ram 2500, 119,000 miles on it. It has a few mods, TST 230/605 plate, straight piped exhaust, K&N air cleaner,etc. The problem is wierd, while you are driving down the road, the engine will start to miss worse and worse until it completely cuts out. If you keep your foot in it while it is dead, it all of a sudden picks up and goes again, sometimes for miles, sometimes for a few feet!
Here are some other things that it also does, While it is missing, it has a loud, knocking noise coming from the injector pump, that completely goes away when it decides to run on all six( we got it to do it in our shop by holding it at a fast idle, it will completely die while holding it at fast idle, you can restart it right after it dies and it runs fine until it decides to act up again!). Also while it is dying, the throttle somehow holds itself open(yes, the gas pedal stays down!), adn once the engine comes back, sometimes it will take off like a bat outa hell(gas pedal does not come back!), or you here a clunk as the throttle pedal comes back to the idle position!
Things we have done.
Replace all rubber sections of fuel line(return too!)- Replaced fuel filter-Replaced screen in fuel heater-Checked all connection for signs of leakage!-replaced fuel pump(lift pump)- banged our head against th wall- swore at it- threatened it!!!.
We did test pressure at the fuel filter outlet side and it had a good 20 to 25 PSI even while cutting out, so fuel supply is not a problem. We have noticed that the problem does not happen while the engine is cold, most of the time it happens after you have driven it 10 miles or so, so it may be engine temperature dependant!
While I hope I didn't confuse anyone, I hope I can get some help with this stumper!!!Any help is appreciated!

Mike #ad


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'99 Ram 2500HD, ISB, 5spd,2wd, quad cab, Long box "it's a real long truck!" Drifwood, agate interior, after 29,000 miles, diesel fumes definitely do not make me horny!!!!
'89 Plymouth Voyager, 2. 5 Turbo I engine, Faster than you think, it's my import killer!!! Uses the only good powerjoke part to make it go faster, the intercooler!
'92 Dodge Spirit R/T, 2. 2 Turbo III engine, complete with prerequisite cracked head, LOOKIN for head!

[This message has been edited by deepsix (edited 01-08-2001). ]

 

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Mike,

You guys have checked all the obvious. How about the supply line and fittings from the fuel filter and to the injection pump? Have you checked the fuel return value?

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Joe George
Eureka, CA

'95 2500 CC auto 4X4,3. 54,Combo EGT/boost guage,custom switch panel,PacBrake,TST #5,BD valve body,Automatic motorhome steps on both sides,Foldacover hard bed cover,Cummins chrome kit,Black steel grill guard,Front hitch receiver

[This message has been edited by Joe G. (edited 01-08-2001). ]

 

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We pressure checked the line going from the pup to the filter, and the filter to the injector pump, but we did not check the return fuel value, how do you go about doing that, are you looking for quanity or quality of fuel coming out. What is an acceptable amount of fuel return??

Mike #ad


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'99 Ram 2500HD, ISB, 5spd,2wd, quad cab, Long box "it's a real long truck!" Drifwood, agate interior, after 29,000 miles, diesel fumes definitely do not make me horny!!!!
'89 Plymouth Voyager, 2. 5 Turbo I engine, Faster than you think, it's my import killer!!! Uses the only good powerjoke part to make it go faster, the intercooler!
'92 Dodge Spirit R/T, 2. 2 Turbo III engine, complete with prerequisite cracked head, LOOKIN for head!

[This message has been edited by deepsix (edited 01-09-2001). ]

 

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Call that guy, whats his name ??? Piers thats it, have him send you a Piers built pump #ad

500hp #ad
Burnout ============================
YeeHawwww
Yes, I'm from Texas #ad


Have know idea what your prob. is, sorry #ad


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95' 2500 standard trans. 2wd reg cab 125,000 miles.
TST #4 plate kit, 370 Diamond B injectors, Afc spring kit, Gov. spring kit,TST's fuel pressure adapter and 2 guage pillar mount, SPA EGT/Boost guage. Joe D's Sachs clutch is in.

 

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Mike,

The return valve is used to maintain fuel supply pressure in the pump. If it quits then the fuel just runs thru the pump. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that's a close enuff explanation. It's on the engine side of the pump even with the forward delivery valve. It looks kind of like a banjo fitting. Cram some rags in the gap between the pump and the engine to catch the flat washers. The valve has a spring and a little derby hat shaped washer and ball valve. The spring can be weak so that it doesn't maintain the pressure properly. Some folks stretch the spring to fix it. That works, at least for a test, but it doesn't last long. I shimmed mine up with a spacer I made from a flat washer. So far so good for about 15K miles since I had a problem with mine. I'll probably have to buy a replacement valve one of these days. Anyway, it's something to check. That knocking sound from your pump does NOT sound good! The throttle business may be a reponse from the governor to a lack of fuel. Good luck on this one. It could be something broke that's expensive.



[This message has been edited by Joe G. (edited 01-09-2001). ]

 

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I can't add any thing to what Mike has described to the problem with my truck,except that now Joe G. is making me nervous with this threat of broken/expensive thought. I tried getting thru to Piers, no luck,nowhere to be found. Help!! Dr. Joe D. ,Dr. Piers, please come to the rescue to recessitate my baby.

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94 4x4 SLT Geno's guages,TST 230/605,straight pipe from turbo,115,000 miles, horton fan clutch,RS9000 shocks, BD torque converter,valve body and pressure lock,Scotty air

 

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Deepsix, It sounds like your fuel shut down solenoid is going bad or you are getting a voltage drop to it. I think it might be starving the engine for fuel. When you hit the starter to restart, it reactivates it and you go again. Or the vibration from the missing engine makes it come back on.
Someone else on here had the same problem. The soleniod would slowly slip down and do just what you are describing. He tied it up to test it.
Theres also a relay on the firewall above the power brake booster that could be the problem. You can check the voltage at the soleniod and see if it drops when the engine acts up.
Hope this helps you out.

 

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What you describe sounds like you're sucking air somewhere,even the pump clunking. My '95 had a similar problem that took two years,5 different dealers,and finally a friend to figure out. My problem only happened with less than a half tank of fuel or going uphill. Ended up being a pin hole in the fuel pick up hose in the tank module. I went through all the same repairs/replacements as you did,and the symptoms sound exactly the same,take notice if the problem goes away with a full tank first. I talked with a Dodge tech a couple of years after it was repaired and he said he had run into this problem a couple of times,so I guess it isn't that rare.

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95' 25004X4,AT,Driftwood,Banks Stinger,Warn fender flairs and running boards(work truck)
95 3500,5 speed 3:54,Driftwood,Banks&Psycotty,34,000 GCVW apple and tractor hauler(works harder truck)

 

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I did recieve your e-mail, but unfortunatly my computer crashed & I lost everything, just now got it up and running. Thanks Vic & Ron!!! It sounds like you may have more than one problem. First thing I would do is put some Stanadyne performance formula in the fuel tank, then I would wire up the shut down solenoid in the on position. Your problem may just be it's sucking air from somewhere, or it could be a sticky plunger, hence the fuel treatment, with an intermitant solenoid problem. Let us know how you make out.

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Piers, BD engine R&D

 

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Since this is my truck, I'll give full details on what I've done/found to this point. The first time the truck acted up it was totally out of the blue,caught me off guard and scared the I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER out of me. It was after driving 30 miles, it stumbled,died and restarted. Got it into a parking lot,shut it down a bit started it back up 15 minutes later and it ran fine for another 20 miles. At this point I had it chalked up to jelled up fuel. Limped it home and got it into a heated garage for the better part of a week (at 60 degrees). While in the shop I added Power Service Diesel 911 to the tank and put in a new fuel filter with the same additive in it. Went to drive the truck after 5-6 days in the shop,drove about 5 miles,same problem returned. Limped it back home again,tried another fuel filter and replaced the prefilter screen and both the rubber return and supply fuel lines. Drove the truck on new year's day to a friends house 6 miles from home,ran fine,let it sit and idle for 45 minutes while we talked,went to the nearest gas station and filled it up then drove home with no problems. 2 days later,went to go somewhere,got 10 miles,same old problem. I tested the relays back at the shop (while the truck was off) and all tested good. At this point, I have run out of patience. I took the truck over to Mike(deepsix)to have him work on it. They replaced the lift pump,tested pressure,etc. This it where we stand as of right now. Like the LedZeppelin song DAZED AND CONFUSED. #ad
#ad


Glenn



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94 4x4 SLT Geno's guages,TST 230/605,straight pipe from turbo,115,000 miles, horton fan clutch,RS9000 shocks, BD torque converter,valve body and pressure lock,Scotty air

 

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I heard of the follower that contacts the cam plate getting out of whack if the cam plate is very aggressive or installed improperly. Is it possible that the cam follower is jumping under the plate and hanging up?

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1998 2500 Quad Cab, 12V, 5spd, 4x4, HD Transfer Case, 370HP Diamond B Injectors, #4 TST, 16cm2 Housing, AFC Spring Kit, BD Governor Spring Kit and other modifications, Walker Muffler, 285/75-16 BFG AT's, Stainless Steel Tube Steps, Reese Fifth Wheel Hitch, Leather, CD, LSD Dana 80 Rear, 60 Front, Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch, Rancho RS9000 Shocks, Rancho Steering Stabilizer, ATS Exhaust Manifold, Psychotty Air Induction

 

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Glenn,I still think you're sucking air,quite possible in the fuel tank module. Mine did it 1/2 tank or less and it didn't always do it,but a hole could be in the pickup tube higher up in the module causing it to suck air even when the tank is full. The pickup tube in the module resembles coil type self retracting air hose,it moves up and down with the tank level so has the potential to wear a hole anywhere it rubs,only fix is to replace the entire module. If the fuel tank isn't venting correctly due to the vent tube still being capped or plugged up it could compound the problem. Double check all fuel line connections and filter seals. Other than that it would have to be a sticking plunger,it could have been damaged from water in the fuel freezing,usually that wouldn't be an intermittent problem though. You used the PS 9-1-1,which is more of a fuel drier than a lube, try using an additive that lubes,the stuck plunger may free up. Last thing on the list is to replace the injection pump,hope it doesn't go that far.

[This message has been edited by illflem (edited 01-09-2001). ]

 

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deepsix and Blackcloud,
To check the fuel return valve while doing pressure test if pressure is on low side(min 20 psi) you reach under and pinch off the fuel return line(rubber part). But doesn't seeem to be problem.
Stalling engine when warmed up would seem to be eletrical. Fuel shut off soleniod good posibility.
You mentioned you checked the sensors which ones?
Have you checked the Engine Speed Sensor(similar to crankshaft position sensor.
The connection for the Engine Speed Sensor
is known to get dirty or messed up connector tabs. The Engine speed sensor is located at vibration damper. The connection is above the sensor about a foot, look behind the wiring harness at top/front of engine.
This particular connector seem to get much abuse.
It also has been Known to cause engine's to stall out. Two members sent letters to TDR and a couple have posted on forum about Engine stalling. The Problem was this connector.

As far as engine being able to keep running on my Ford van with electric fuel pumps when it would start to shut down(the pump(s)- going 75 mph) I could pump the gas pedal to keep engine running until I made it to side of road. But your's is manual lift pump I don't know if it would react the same as my electric ones.
But air getting in and sticking plunger, seem more like it.


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Bill Thomas
Missouri Mule - 96 Wht 4X4 ST CC,5 spd, 3. 54, 8 ft bed, 1 ft high cheater boards.
99 Freightliner bl/wht FL60 ISB-5. 9 24v,215 hp,520 tq,6 spd, 3. 59 nsr,16 ft box, 19. 5 tires,Wt/gvw 11,000/23000

 

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To answer illflem's question, The tankwas filled right to the top, and the problem still persisted. Tomorrow, I amgoing to install a clear hose between the fuel heater and the lift pump and see if there is any air up to that point in the system. I don't think that this is an air related problem, But I am not perfect, and I am wrong sometimes! I am also going to wire up the shutoff solenoid and go for a ride. I did check this when it killed one time, but it was up and holding strong! I will also check the fuel return valve, if this one has the style as described. I also tried something that may have no relevance at all, but normally when you prime the pump with the primer button, you get a rattling noise(humming) like a cehck ball seating in the injector pump. Immediatly after the truck died, I pushed the primer and was greeted with the noise it normally made and 25 LBS or so of fuel pressure, immediatly after the truck died. I will do somore testing tomorrow, and hopefully come up with something, This one is testing my patience, and Glenn's(blackcloud) as well. Keep all the help coming!!!

MIke #ad


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'99 Ram 2500HD, ISB, 5spd,2wd, quad cab, Long box "it's a real long truck!" Drifwood, agate interior, after 29,000 miles, diesel fumes definitely do not make me horny!!!!
'89 Plymouth Voyager, 2. 5 Turbo I engine, Faster than you think, it's my import killer!!! Uses the only good powerjoke part to make it go faster, the intercooler!
'92 Dodge Spirit R/T, 2. 2 Turbo III engine, complete with prerequisite cracked head, LOOKIN for head!

 

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Go for it Mike. I surely hope that the solution to the problem is something cheap!

 

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You are describing almost exactly what my truck did very recently. Read Remember me, Help engine stalling? My number three cylinder would stumble and eventually quit. Long story short, I replaced the injector pump with one from Piers. (A wild one at that #ad
) I was using number #1 diesel fuel and that was not providing enough lubricant to the pump. The number three plunger was sticking. Give Piers a call and describe everything in detail. I couldn't provide nearly as much information as he could. The new pump obviosly solved my problem. Good luck!

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J Case
'95 2500 4x4 Auto Reg Cab
Big Dick's 2inch lift
BD tc, vb, Pressure lock, and 4" exhaust.
K&N RE-0880 with 25-0880 prefilter
Custom Fuel Pump by Piers!!

BOHICA!!!!

 

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I think dieselburner is correct, there is a fuel pump problem. There would have to be a mechanical problem with the governor to hold the pedal down. Maybe a frozen plunger would do this by holding the rack in? I bet a frozen plunger makes a horrible noise when the cam follower comes up and slams it.

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1997 4x4 CC 5spd, CPL1553 pump, Horton fan, Sport headlamps, Optima RedTops, 98 shift levers and console, RS5000 shocks, Toyo 235/85 tires... but going back to Michelin.

 

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Believe me, it does make a nasty noise, pretty loud too.

 

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My problem also caused the throttle to stick or not to react at all at different times. The more I think about it, the more it souds just like the same problem as mine. I'm no expert about p7100's but read the recent posts and look it up in the archives.

For some reason I cannot e-mail you right now. I couldn't tell you why. (I'm computer dumb) E-mail me if you like. I'll be glad to share any info you would like to know.

[This message has been edited by sixkill (edited 01-11-2001). ]

 

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Just like to keep this at the top so we can all find out what happens.