2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission upgrade from auto lock hubs to manual

[pwerwagn]

Well, they werent from dynatrac I remember that. If I recall correctly, this guy wasnt running a normal width 2nd gen axle. Thats when he found out that the inners werent 35 spline. He bought some custom length inners for a Dana 60, and couldnt figure out why they wouldnt go in. He called me, I told him he was crazy. I went to his house to check it out, and asked him why there were no hubs (I was thinking it was a d44 at first. . full time axle). He said it was out of a full time 1-ton, I couldnt think of any full time 1-tons off the top of my head. then I noticed all the grinding and crap by the knuckle, and then the CAD housing. It donned on me then.



Long story short, he already had the correct length axles (had them made... . dunno by who but if I can track him down i will ask), just not the 35 spline spiders.

I think he eventually ended up going with a 35 spline detroit... Im not sure he ever used it open with the 35spline spiders.



--Jeff

 

[steved]

Happened to come across this thread using the search function tonight-Jeff, I have a question for you. Were the 35 spline inners you installed from a Dynatrac kit or sourced out the old-fashioned way with a tape measure and lots of searching? Would like to upgrade my truck to use a 35 spline Power-Lok I have sitting around and get rid of the CAD at the same time.



Thanks

Jason

I will only add that DT does make a replacement 35-spline "upgrade" for the 94+ D60Fs... but I am not sure on the cost...



Might also look ate EMS Offroad out of PA... they make a kit similar to the DT kit for a little less money.



steved

 

[JHansen]

Cool-thanks guys. I was poking around the PavementSucks and Pirate BB's this morning looking for some info but ran out of time before I had to go to work.



Jason

 

[rickhans]

I am not clear as to why you would want to put manual hubs on. All of my 4wd's had those until the auto locking hubs came out. I have never had a problem with them, but my newest one is a 98. 5 2500. Are you saying that the 2002 and newer 4wd don't unlock the hubs so they are always spinning the differential? That sounds almost like all wheel drive which I would not want either.

 

[steved]

I am not clear as to why you would want to put manual hubs on. All of my 4wd's had those until the auto locking hubs came out. I have never had a problem with them, but my newest one is a 98. 5 2500. Are you saying that the 2002 and newer 4wd don't unlock the hubs so they are always spinning the differential? That sounds almost like all wheel drive which I would not want either.

If you are under the inpression that dodge has had "auto locking hubs" for any length of time, then you need to research it some... dodge last used TRUE autolocking hubs in 1984 when they switch to the CAD in 1985 (CAD is NOT a locking hub). You are spinning the entire front assembly and the tcase even with the CAD (mostly from parasitic drag, so it isn't much at the tcase)... you are still spinning the spiders and side gears, etc...



Some 2001/2002s came through without a CAD, and basically they have no way to keep the front axle components from spinning (clear into the tcase). All of the 03+ trucks are the same (no CAD). And that does not constitute all-wheel drive since those wheels are simply "free wheeling" with no power put through them in 2wd... the driver still dictates when power put to the front wheels by engaging the tcase.



steved

 

[rickhans]

No you have me thrououghly confused. Prior to buying my '98, I drove Chevy's with auto locking hubs. I researched the Dodge before buying and was assured that the hub completely disconnects after shifting into 2 wd and backing up. It has always worked, and I have verified it by jacking up the front wheel and spinning it. I have even had the hub apart to replace a spindle with a damaged bearing on my '96 1500.



Could you give me a little more detail as to what is spinning the differential and axles when the hubs are unlocked. I must be misunderstanding what is being said.

 

[steved]

No you have me thrououghly confused. Prior to buying my '98, I drove Chevy's with auto locking hubs. I researched the Dodge before buying and was assured that the hub completely disconnects after shifting into 2 wd and backing up. It has always worked, and I have verified it by jacking up the front wheel and spinning it. I have even had the hub apart to replace a spindle with a damaged bearing on my '96 1500.



Could you give me a little more detail as to what is spinning the differential and axles when the hubs are unlocked. I must be misunderstanding what is being said.

What you replaced in your 96 sounds like a unit bearing, they don't have a separate "spindle" as it is part of the unitized bearing assembly...



On a CAD-equipped truck, the driver's side unit bearing hub is turning the stub shaft and inner shaft into the spiders... that translates around the open differential to the, for lack of better term, inner/inner axleshaft on the passenger side (which most likely is rotating in the opposite direction) and stops at the CAD... the passenger side is turning the stub shaft and, again for lack of better term, outer/inner shaft to the CAD... there it stops driving anything unless the CAD is actuated...



There is enough "friction" in the form of parasitic drag to spin the carrier even with the CAD disengaged... this in turn spins the front driveshaft and hence the tcase (albeit very very slowly).



The CAD is different than the GM "hubs" IIRC, you can't really compare the two... I was comparing a dodge to a dodge.



The older true auto lockout used the old style conventional spindle/hub assembly with a lockout at the end of the hub that would engage as soon as the axleshaft placed a load on it... in 2wd, you only spun the hubs themselves... the axleshafts were stationary. After that, they intro'd the CAD and still used the conventional spindle/hub assembly, only they replaced the lockout with a solidly connected drive flange.



In 94, we were blessed with these unit bearing hubs that we still have today which is basically a drive flange and very similar to the D44 in the fulltime 4wd dodges of the 70s... except these are a throw-away design.



steved

 

[rickhans]

Thanks for the answer. I did not know that there was any friction once I backed up to disengage. Doesn't this create wear and tear on that assembly that would shorten its lifespan? I am surprised that I am just learning this after driving and maintaining these for 8 years. I feel like I was a little mislead by Dodge because when I bought it I was told that the hub unlocks and the manuel also refers to it that way. I guess they figure the customer does not need to know the details. Thanks again.

 

[steved]

Thanks for the answer. I did not know that there was any friction once I backed up to disengage. Doesn't this create wear and tear on that assembly that would shorten its lifespan? I am surprised that I am just learning this after driving and maintaining these for 8 years. I feel like I was a little mislead by Dodge because when I bought it I was told that the hub unlocks and the manuel also refers to it that way. I guess they figure the customer does not need to know the details. Thanks again.

While they are spinning, there is also no load on them... I doubt the front end (short the ujoints, CAD-engagement actuator, and unit bearings) would ever give trouble... my dad currently has 254k on his 99 and has yet to replace anything but balljoints.



But yeah, there is a lot more going on in there than meets the eye...



steved

 

[K5IP]

Nice topic you have going here.

I was also skeptical of the front axel disconnect when I bought my 95. Now, after 12 years of use I like the system quite well. Although not quite as friction free as a hub disconnect system, it offers the major advantage of being quite water proof. I tired of the hub maintanence required in Ford products as I spend quite a bit of time running through mountain streams (they always flooded). I Never have had maintenance issues or water related problems with this system, and no maintenance is required.

A simple mod, simply interrupting the vacuum supply to the axel disconnect, also allows me to use low range while backing my trailer around a sharp corner, uphill when parking my 5th wheel. A nice feature (similar to unlocking manual hubs), to keep from binding everything up.

All in all, I am glad I don't have hubs to contend with (and repack)

Rog

 

[steved]

Nice topic you have going here.

I was also skeptical of the front axel disconnect when I bought my 95. Now, after 12 years of use I like the system quite well. Although not quite as friction free as a hub disconnect system, it offers the major advantage of being quite water proof. I tired of the hub maintanence required in Ford products as I spend quite a bit of time running through mountain streams (they always flooded). I Never have had maintenance issues or water related problems with this system, and no maintenance is required.

A simple mod, simply interrupting the vacuum supply to the axel disconnect, also allows me to use low range while backing my trailer around a sharp corner, uphill when parking my 5th wheel. A nice feature (similar to unlocking manual hubs), to keep from binding everything up.

All in all, I am glad I don't have hubs to contend with (and repack)

Rog

But at the same time you CAN'T repack the unit bearings which, if they get any water/grime in them, they don't tend to last very long... I know from other boards that guys go through them quite often if they offroad much...



If you look at the seals in a unit bearing, they are not very substantial due to their design (large diameter and very thin)... not as good, IMO, as a old style spindle/hub which has a spring in the seal to hold it against the spindle... the unit bearing's seal is more like a dust sheild...



And as for repacking hubs... the Warns that came with my DT kit are oring sealed... I have seen guys submerge the warns without any issues... and again, I feel that it was more a poor lockout design that caused you to have issues than another lockout, higher quality, would have...



And I believe you are NOT supposed to grease the lockout anyway since they would NOT engage in cold weather because the grease would be stiff enough to hold the drive flange from seating where it needed to... I only used motor oil on mine and have yet to have and issues... but they are only 6 months old... but I have lockouts on '74 pickups (very similar) that are still going with no issues...



And again, it is total preference... IMO, the manufacturer should give ME the option on whether I want to get out in the cold and lock my hubs in... that way, you have your drive flanges and unit bearings and I have my hubs...



steved

 

[pwerwagn]

And again, it is total preference... IMO, the manufacturer should give ME the option on whether I want to get out in the cold and lock my hubs in... that way, you have your drive flanges and unit bearings and I have my hubs...

ditto!!!



Oh, and the Lockout hub comment on the chevy:

The chevy's (IFS) do not have lockout hubs either as well. maybe currently, but for sure not until at least post yr 2000.

they have a thermal linear actuator in the diff that disconnects. The axle shafts and CV joints are still spinnin away, at the same speed as the tire. And IIRC, the drivers side of those setups still rotate the spiders as well (similar to the dodge setup. . ).



--Jeff

 

[K5IP]

Steved,

You are probably right about the Warns being tight. I used them for many years as an aftermarket for a series of mid 60' & 70"s Toyota Landcurisers. (I was raised in Moab Utah). I do not recall many water intrusion problems with them, but then again, water was not much of a problem in SE Utah.

My ford products were, however another matter, and my factory manual (Bronco) suggested maintaining them (the hubs) whenever they were under water. When I opened them up, they were usually wet.

Rog

 

[pwerwagn]

They might have been getting wet from the backside. There are seals on the knuckle side of the stub shaft, and those often get neglected (a lot of front axles also have very small roller bearings there too. . ). If those seals were bad, water would have seeped through the spindle and straight into the hub. Probably not through the oring on the hub itself. .



--Jeff

 

[rickhans]

I had an '83 and '85 chevy 4wd. They did not have cv joints, instead were straight axle, unless you are calling the joint where the axle connects to the hub. Back then the only CV joints I was aware of was the type on front wheel drive cars that had a rubber boot filled with grease. The Chevy was not like that, but it has been so long since I worked on the front end that I don't remember it's exact structure. I am certain, however, that those hubs did disconnect upon backing up. There was no disconnect at the differential. That must have come a little later, probably when the did switch to the cv joints and did away with the straight axle housing.



The models I had required the hub and bearings to be removed in order to turn or replace the rotors so the only time they got a grease job was when it was time for front brakes. I liked them very much after having prior Chevys with Warn hubs. I hated getting out in the snow to engage, then when I hit dry concrete, getting out again to unlock them.

 

[steved]

I had an '83 and '85 chevy 4wd. They did not have cv joints, instead were straight axle, unless you are calling the joint where the axle connects to the hub. Back then the only CV joints I was aware of was the type on front wheel drive cars that had a rubber boot filled with grease. The Chevy was not like that, but it has been so long since I worked on the front end that I don't remember it's exact structure. I am certain, however, that those hubs did disconnect upon backing up. There was no disconnect at the differential. That must have come a little later, probably when the did switch to the cv joints and did away with the straight axle housing.



The models I had required the hub and bearings to be removed in order to turn or replace the rotors so the only time they got a grease job was when it was time for front brakes. I liked them very much after having prior Chevys with Warn hubs. I hated getting out in the snow to engage, then when I hit dry concrete, getting out again to unlock them.

Those were true "auto-locking hubs" and were very similar to the ones found on the 81-84ish dodge trucks... they tended to be problematic as sometimes they would not unlock, sometimes they would not lock, and othertimes they would just grenade for no apparent reason... I had a lot of friends who thought these were "the" way to go...



Those are very different from those the "disconnect" the 2nd gens have (the CAD)... and IMO, with a little refinement would be a MUCH better choice than the unitbearings and CAD... you also had the choise to convert to manual locking hubs if you so desired...



When most people talk GM, I normally assume they are talking IFS... which has been the norm since 88... most people don't even remember solid front axles, let alone manual/automatic locking hubs...



steved

 

[SPrusak]

we did this sap on my friends 95 ram:

93 F350 TTB knuckles, hubs, calipers, rotors, lockouts

everything bolted up with no issues other than having to get new moser stub shafts and upgrades to braided SS brake lines

 

[steved]

we did this sap on my friends 95 ram:

93 F350 TTB knuckles, hubs, calipers, rotors, lockouts

everything bolted up with no issues other than having to get new moser stub shafts and upgrades to braided SS brake lines

I often wondered this, the steering hooked up with no issues too?? I know everything else is a simple bolt-on, just always wondered about the steering linkages...



While I have often considered doing this conversion on my dad's junk, the 01/02s (or was it 00?) "flipped" the ball joints, so you can't use this junkyard method to get hubs unfortunately...



steved

 

[dclassens]

Any body here have photo's of a truck with manual hubs, or does any body here have photo's on a 3500 truck with 2500 rims up front??

Dave

 

[steved]

Any body here have photo's of a truck with manual hubs, or does any body here have photo's on a 3500 truck with 2500 rims up front??

Dave

If you search for "dynatrac", I believe you will find the pictures you want. I also believe DT was working on a kit for the 3500 DRW trucks... might want to call them and ask, it would save you from running 2500 rims up front.



steved